Trump and ROCEJ

Exactly. Politicians shouldn’t even be troped as if they were fictional characters anyway.

Just saying this. Please put "Administrivia/" in front of Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement in the pinned post so it's not a red link.

In Sitcom Arch-Nemesis, I found this, which I deleted not too long after:

• Donald Trump and Rosie O'Donnell. The feud began when Rosie described Trump as being reminiscent of a 'snake oil salesman' from Little House on the Prairie on her first talk show. Rosie makes fun of the Donald's hair, Don reacts like a little girl who's had her pigtails pulled, calls Rosie fat, rinse and repeat.
  Michael K.: The night started off with a bang when ranting merkin Donald Trump declared that he maaaay run independent, and then he blew another wet, slobbery air kiss at his longtime soulmate Rosie O’Donnell...The Juliet to Donald’s Romeo, Rosie O’Donnell, responded to what Trump said by tweeting: “try explaining that 2 ur kids.” I don’t know if she was talking about the shit Trump said about her or the shit on his head.
  • Trump has this with Barack Obama as well.

Several examples from Daybreak (2019).

Under Running Gag

• Eli echoing Trump's talking points on immigration in reaction to more people arriving in 'his' mall also qualifies.

Under Take That!

• A few directed at Donald Trump.
  • Josh specifically says that 'megalomaniac leaders who can start a war with a tweet' were among the factors that led to the apocalypse.
  • Eli often takes a Trumpian tone towards new arrivals to the mall, outright referring to the new arrivals as 'bad hombres' and comparing himself to the modern (post-apocalyptic) version of ICE. And these moves are treated as him being an entitled Jerkass.

Yeah or Nay?

I'm not sure. They could be written in a more neutral tone.

RE: Daybreak:

• The "also qualifies" should be edited out, as per ZCE rules. Maybe something like "Eli perpetually echoes Trump's talking points on immigration in reaction to more people arriving in 'his' mall."
• Usually a Take That! example doesn't qualify given the three requirements in this thread's OP.
  • Since Trump is not specifically mentioned in the "Josh" example, and since Trump is not even portrayed in the work (just maybe mentioned), that does not qualify.
  • The "Eli" example might be a Take That! against ICE, but again Trump is not specifically mentioned nor is he portrayed in the work, so it wouldn't qualify.
• That said, there might be a better trope for Eli. IIRC, there's a trope for when a character is a Shout-Out to someone with views the creator disagrees with, like Cartman or Mr. Garrison in South Park. I can't recall what that trope is at the moment, though. Maybe Eli would count as that trope, but he really doesn't fit Take That!.

Found this on LaResistance.Real Life

• The Israeli government revolted against the British Mandate and likewise achieved independence.

Should it stay or should it go?

Done. Honestly, I feel that page may be flame bait city.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 28th 2019 at 1:26:29 PM

Cut it.

Here are some more examples, including bad indentation.

• The Arab Spring, a wave of protests and revolutions that began in The New '10s in the Middle East. Yemen, Egypt, Libya and Tunisia saw actual regime change while in Syria it spiraled into a civil war which as of 2019, is still going on.
• The Arab Spring itself was inspired by the Iranian "Jonbesh e Sabz" (Persian for "Green Movement", though they weren't exactly "Green") which started in 2009. The movement started as a group protesting against the Ahmadinejad Administration's radical moves and blatant corruption and they rallied behind Mir Hossein Mousavi who went on to run for President. Then Ahmadinejad got reelected in an obviously rigged election and the Greens took to the streets. Mousavi and fellow candidate Mahdi Karoubi were taken into custody immediately (Flash-forward 10 years, they're still under house arrest) and the protests got more serious, the government got more violent and the movement eventually faded away.
  • While the Green Movement was eventually founded by Gay Rights Activists, its official leaders were still loyal to the constitution of the Islamic Republic. The movement sought to reform and improve the system rather to abolish it. This view has been falling out of favor the past few years, more and more people are leaning towards a total Anti-Establishment view in an attempt to end the hostility and the clerical control for good. Since the December 2017 protests a new Resistance has been formed, called the Farashgard. The Farashgard is completely anti-theocracy and anti-communist. They seek to establish a european style Democracy and possibly a restoration of the Pahlavi Monarchy. The organization keeps a very low profile, the only known members other than those arrested and killed in the protests are the 40 leaders, all of whom are living in exile.

I suggested that the trope be made NRLEP in the appropriate thread.

Should I remove this example from Some of My Best Friends Are X?

• Subverted in an Imran Yusuf joke: "Some people get annoyed at me for making jokes about the situation in Israel and Palestine, they accuse me of being an antisemite for making jokes criticizing Israel. I always tell them, 'You know who my best friend at school was? He's a real antisemite, I'm an absolute amateur compared to him!'"

Movement Mascot was just launched and already has ROCEJ violations.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Dec 16th 2019 at 10:21:39 AM

I apologize if this is not the correct procedure.

But I'm working on a draft for Artistic License-Politics, so it's supposed to record only how politics vary between real life and fiction. Someone proposed this example.

• Watchmen:
  • In the comic's alternate history, The Vietnam War was quickly won by the United States with the aid of Doctor Manhattan, and after Vietnam's defeat it was colonized and turned into the US's 51st state. In real life, the United States hasn't turned an overseas territory into a state since Hawaii in 1959, and it has ample reason to not want to, as keeping them territories lets America reap the benefits of occupation without having to worry about the actions of millions of new voters and representatives.^note For a recent example of a territory-turned-state stalling the mainland government for over a year, see Trump v. Hawaii.
  • With his increased popularity after victory in Vietnam, President Richard Nixon makes a successful push to overturn the 22nd Amendment and win a 3rd term. Amendments are notoriously difficult to pass and even harder to repeal, with the National Weather Service comparing the latter's likelihood to living to 80 and being struck by lightning. This is on top of America having a strong tradition of only two presidential terms ever since 1789, before the 22nd Amendment made it official in 1951.

I have a hard time gaging the problems (mostly because I kind of agree with it) but it still seems kind of problematic, specially the first bullet.

I found this on The Great Alicorn Hunt

• Life Imitates Art: Ralph Hayes Jr published Chapter 52 in late October 2016, a few weeks before the US Presidential election. The general shock and minor chaos seen in Ponyville upon the news of the CMC's ascendance breaking was reflected in the reactions to Donald Trump's surprise victory. Diamond Tiara's absolute meltdown was later mirrored by an especially unstable / distraught individual attending the inauguration.

Not sure if I should bring this up here or elsewhere.

Arguably a ROCEJ violation, but not an example so we don't need to argue it. It's just Alternate History, not any form of artistic license. Cut.

Not a ROCEJ violation. Don't know the work so I can't say for sure whether it's a valid example, but if the relevant part of the work is about something similar to an election and has characters acting in a way that is eerily similar to the reactions to the 2016 election, including a character that is mirrored by a real life person, it sounds like an example to me.

Whatever happened to the 3 rules at the top of the thread? Are they still in effect or not? Because there seems to be a lot of examples that are being judged OK despite not fitting every single of these criteria:

• When the work in question specifically mentions the RL individual.
• When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.
• When the work is fictional.

If these rules aren't accurate anymore, the rules should be updated because I'm currently getting mixed messages about exactly what is OK or not OK.

Edited by Someoneman on Dec 21st 2019 at 6:37:57 AM

The key word you're possibly overlooking up there is "subject". Incidental mention of RL people, when relevant and not bashing, has always been okay.

The point of this cleanup effort was to clean up political mudslinging, not to turn Donald Trump into an Un-person.

And even if Trump is the subject of an example, it doesn't necessarily mean it's political.

WhatCouldHaveBeen.Sports is a good case here; Trump is the subject of one example, but that example has nothing to do with politics beyond an offhand mention.

Edited by bwburke94 on Dec 22nd 2019 at 1:55:41 PM

I still feel like that Great Alicorn Hunt example is stretching it a bit since it's about peoples' subjective opinions rather than about Trump himself.

On another not, Barack Obama has a tropes section that is supposedly about how he is often depicted in fiction, but includes many tropes that are just about him in real life.

I found all of these political examples on the real life section for Insult to Rocks, and posit that these examples all violate the rule of cautious editing judgement, so they need to be cut.

South Park S 8 E 8 Douche and Turd has this:

• Values Resonance: The moral of the episode (elections are always between a douche and a turd) became even more relevant during the 2016 election between Donald Trump and Hillary Rodham Clinton, the candidates with the highest unfavorable ratings in US history^note while most of the population abstain from voting throughout election and nearly people going vote to least three alternates Gary Johnson from Libertarian Party, Jill Stein from Green Party and Evan McMullin who just run as Independent, though the former two received backlash as Not So Different due to their overt display of ignorance in politics and controversial views. Matt and Trey even brought the joke back during the Season 20 premiere.

At least it's attacking both major 2016 candidates equally using verifiable statistics. I'm not sure what that note is trying to say because of its poor grammar, but it sounds like it's just complaining about the Green Party and Independents.

I am severely contemplating cutting the following example from Blunt "Yes" for being potential flame bait.

• Richard Dawkins inverted this while answering a question about his experiences with debating religous people:
  Raghavan: Have you ever heard clever or interesting argument from the other side?
  Dawkins: No.

I'm thinking of making a page for the controversial YouTuber Chris Ray Gun, because he actually has some very trope-filled content (Running Gags, Black Comedy Suicide, Deadpan Snarker, Self-Deprecation, etc), but because he's so controversial (with his political content mostly poking fun at the Left, obviously he's gotten some people upset, though he himself identifies as a liberal and genuinely dislikes conservative politics) I want to be careful in making the page. It'd be hard to talk about him without discussing the political stuff, but I don't want to leave the door open for people to go and bash or post about ROCEJ-laden stuff, so I'm a bit unsure how to go about doing this.

His content is creative, skit-filled, and he even makes original music... but those damn politics make it hard to discuss him, not just because it'd be hard to remain neutral in the bio, but because other people don't really have neutral opinions on him...

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like some help.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 11th 2020 at 6:52:16 AM

The only issue with that is that a blunt "no" isn't an inversion. The content is fine to keep as is.

He can, of course, have a page. I haven't watched too much of his content, but if The Young Turks and True Capitalist can have pages (although the former's is a mess), he can. There are plenty of other shows/creators/works that are political minefields; a good amount of their pages aren't exactly neutral, but most tropers at least try.

Yeah, while I myself don't find his opinions to be bad or offensive, I know a lot of people do, so I'll just have to find a way to discuss his content in a neutral manner.

Made the page, did my best to not get too-in-depth about his politics.