Discussion YMMV / PokemonXAndY

We don't need a link to KYM. What we have under Memetic Mutation explains it well enough that links are not necessary.

I personally can't imagine anyone having trouble against him, but it's YMMV.

Though honestly, I question why we have a That One Boss section if there's a Pokemon page for that anyway.

Because this page is more specific and more easy to reach, too.

Just a link to the That One Boss page seems like it'd be a lot less redundant.

That doesn't even make sense. Cut it.

Apologies for reopening this old topic, but I'm kind of curious about this as well. It was added back in, but I didn't see any evidence given for it being put back in. It just was without any conversation on the matter here or a note explaining why. Related to this, I've been seeing a lot of the BW vs. XY rivalry being put up over the two pages, which I've not seen in any section of the Pokémon fanbase, except for here (at least, no more then say, RS vs. DP or the like). If there's any reason why this was put back up and why this rivalry has been brought up constantly on both pages, just share it and I'll drop it, but I'm really curious why this is all here when at large, I haven't seen the fanbase give it much thought.

You'll have to ask Darth Megatron for this. That said, Americans Hate Tingle as-is is for characters, so it should probably be removed.

I get the feeling it's one of those "some people = me" situations where the writer is saying it's a popular opinion to get it on the page. They've done it before claiming opinions I'd never heard of were the majority.

I agree that it needs removing. I've never heard that opinion before.

What were they removed from?

I'm not sure where the Helioptile was removed from (I think it was under Ugly Cute). The Protag/Rival ships was under Fan-Preferred Pairing.

If that's the case, then probably because it's not really Ugly Cute. It's pretty traditionally cute.

No clue about the shipping one, though.

I'm not sure if Ugly Cute was the trope or not.

Would it be all right to add the shipping one back in, then? Or should I wait?

"Serena/Shauna DOES seem to be more popular than Shauna/Calem"

That still falls under misuse though. Being slightly more popular than another pairing doesn't making something the Fan Preferred Couple. Fan Preferred is when the greater majority of the fandom is shipping a pairing.

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to OHKO something with Endeavor. But yeah, those Scraggy hordes were annoying. If only for Sand Attack.

I found it really easy, myself. I cycled out Pokemon a lot so they weren't horribly overlevelled, but the kicker was that there were so few fights against trainers with six Pokemon. I was able to win most fights through simple attrition, even if they took out multiple of my Pokemon in one go.

Scraggy? Honedge just laughs at 'em. The game has a few difficulty spikes, but nothing notorious so far. Some are just closer to Goddamn Bats or Demonic Spiders at best. There's many times where they purposely put a guy in the area to heal you.

We probably could slim down the entry to a few instances and examples, though.

I thought Scraggy was part-Dark type. Or do they (at least the ones you do HE against) not have any dark-type moves to maul Honedge?

They're level 5 so... yeah. No. He doesn't get a Dark attack until 9.

The game is as easy as you make it. If you turn off experience share, don't use Amie or Super Training, and don't abuse obviously powerful things like Korrina's Mega Lucario or Mega Charizard Y, it's a slightly more difficult regular Pokemon game (Thanks to the large levels and better AI). If you want a real challenge, you can do a Nuzlocke run like in any other Pokemon game, or a mono-type run if you're sick of critical hits ruining your Nuzlockes. I especially like the mono-type run idea, since this game has a huge variety of wild Pokemon; the only types a mono-type run will have trouble assembling a team with are Ice and Ghost, especially Ice.

Yes.

You get a lot of complaining and a lot of complaining about complaining and even some complaining about complaining about complaining.

It's one of the worst things about YMMV.

Honestly, all of the third bullet there should go. It's just discussion in the main page and justifying edits. A bullet point should never begin with "However."

Though honestly the whole "tsukumogami" argument seems a bit pointless when one could just as easily say "poltergeist" (Rotom in particular is more based on poltergeist than tsukumogami for sure). It's not like objects being possessed is a particularly Japanese phenomenon.

If the third bullet should go, then so should the second bullet; the whole article is heavily biased against any form of criticism towards the game or even the Pokemon designs. Both sides should at least have a voice in the matter; that's why it was in the Broken Base section.

Edit: Oh wait, I saw that you removed both third bullets there.

Klefki is based on superstitions of household trickster fairies that steal easily lost and valuable items, such as keys. Gamefreak took the "mischievous fairy that steals keys" idea and ran with it by making Klefki a key ring that hoards the stolen keys. I especially like how instead of getting a generic smile, it has a keyhole for a mouth.

Call it what you want, but it's hardly lazy.

Well first off, they'd be Base Breaker, not Broken Base.

Anyway, I hate the fat dancing guy and the little know it all, but I'm fine with the girls. I don't expect this is an accurate representation of the fandom, though. Each of the guys is objectively a Flat Character.

I'll say this: the part I dislike most about Tierno is the wasted potential: guy's obsessed with dancing, talks about how he's trying to find inspiration about dancing from his Pokemon, and he doesn't have a dancing-Pokemon team? I mean, Meloetta's technically a Legendary, but what about Jynx, Hitmontop, Aromatisse, Ludicolo, Lilligant, Bellossem... they could've easily filled out a pretty diverse team with Dance Battler Pokemon, which would've been a lot more interesting and fitting.

(Yes, I know his Pokemon had moves with Dance in their names but I still don't think that's nearly as interesting or noticeable)

Well, let's see. Here's ones I've personally noticed in the fandom:

Valid:

• Mega Kangaskhan was really well-recieved.
• Goomy has his own subreddit.
• Hawlucha is popular, if only for Flying Press. And being a Masked Luchador.
• Tyrunt was popular just for being a T-Rex.
• Haven't heard of this myself, but the description of Malamar makes me think that's valid.

Not valid:

• Espurr is less Ensemble Dark Horse and more Memetic Mutation.
• Honedge, much as I love it. It's definitely a Base Breaker. Aegislash might count, though...
• Sycamore, since he's not really part of an Ensemble. He's a major player.
• All starters and box legendaries are not valid. They're way too major to be considered a darkhorse.

The rest I'm not sure of how valid they are, to be honest.

Also, anyone heavily advertised, or shown off just for a new evolution might not count. Inkay was pretty well known, and since his point is to show off a new evolution type alone, him being popular seems more because they advertised him. I'd say he's not valid.

The rest I agree with. Aegislash could count, seeing as it wasn't heavily advertised, right?

The issue with Aegislash is I don't know how popular he is. He's definitely not a main character, so that's fine.

In terms of "too popular to count," I'm pretty much fine with any Pokemon but Starters, Legendaries, and particularly big-name Pokemon like Eeveelutions. I don't think Gimmick Pokemon like Inkay are disqualified. It's not like it's a Pokemon forced upon the player at all.

Hmm. I probably misunderstood then. I thought heavily advertised considered them "too important" to be one. Never mind, then.

To be honest, I'm not really up on how much advertising it got. I personally didn't see any myself, other than the occasional mention in an article about how it's a new type of evolution. Nothing compared to the likes of the starters, box legendaries, movie-centric Pokemon, or any of the early Pokemon (by early, I mean the first ones revealed in a Generation, like Zoroark in B&W).

Plus, I'm inclined to keep it since its entry is more than just "yes, people like this Pokemon."

Pulled some misuse of Ensemble Dark Horse:

These can't count because they fail to be part of the Ensemble; they're too heavily promoted. Ensemble Dark Horse isn't just about being popular, it's specifically about a minor character being unexpectedly popular. Bad enough to include one Starter, but every starter family was on the page. That's just misuse.

• Fennekin more or less received the same treatment as Snivy from the moment it was revealed.
• Though Chespin's initial reception was... mixed, it eventually achieved this status largely due to being a Ridiculously Cute Critter who resembles Oshawott, who, ironically enough, received the same treatment as Chespin. Better yet, when the games were released, it came to be considered one of the best Grass-type starters when it comes to battle performance, learning useful moves such as Bite and Rollout at very early levels.
• Professor Sycamore has already become one of the most popular regional professors, due to his good looks, kickass theme, and for being the first professor in the series to actually battle the player.
• Out of the Kalos starters' final forms, Greninja seems to be the most popular for its cool design and its Hidden Ability making it a top-tier OU contender. Similarly, as for the Kanto starters' Mega Evolutions, Mega Charizard X gets the most love for two reasons: for giving Charizard the Dragon type and for making it a legitimate threat in OU.

Pulled this because it's Memetic Mutation, and Espurr is mentioned in the first bullet point anyway.

• Espurr, in particular, has become quite popular on Tumblr because of its thousand yard stare.

Please discuss here before putting it back again.

I think this plays into how the trope has deviated from its original meaning, at least as far as this franchise is concerned. At first it used to mean that it's a minor character that was a part of an ensemble, but now it's become a term for any character that has become more popular then what was expected.

It probably also doesn't help that certain characters still manage to be extremely popular even outside of being the mascots/on the forefront. Charizard for instance is no doubt one of the most popular Pokemon of all time but wouldn't count as a minor characters since not only is it a starter, it was originally one of the main mascots of its respective generation. Same with examples like Lugia, Piplup/Oshawott in the anime and (to a lesser extent) Lucario. So there's that somewhat muddled line in the sense that these Pokemon are extremely popular to the extent that they far outshadow others in their group even over that of what's expected, but are still in the forefront of that group in the first place.

The thing is, it shouldn't have deviated. That's Trope Decay, and the definition is still a minor character who has become popular. The definition hasn't changed, even if people have been misusing it.

I should clarify, I was more referring to its use in the Pokémon franchise itself rather then the term at large as there seems to be a difference in how it's handled for the most part (though there are examples like Luigi). For instance, no one would dare question examples like Link not qualifying as Ensemble Darkhorses as he's definitely the main character and hell, I've seen those examples stripped out as soon as possible on other pages, but Pokemon don't seem to be subject to that. Examples like the aforementioned Charizard, Lugia and Zekrom have been left alone for quite some time (hell, Charizard and Lugia were considered Darkhorses since I first found the site) despite being the mascots of their respective generations. So the site hasn't really drawn that line between mascots and regular Pokemon, or at least for a certain reason they weren't considering mascot Pokemon to be main characters in the same sense as they would Link. Regardless, there's a reason they weren't bothered and that may have to be considered.

Having said that, I do agree that examples like Hilbert may not count as they're definitely main characters to begin with and there's no muddling of the line there.

Any main playable like Hilbert shouldn't count. Same with any Starter or Legendary.

Any main Mascot(like Lucario) shouldn't count either. Anybody else is up in the air.

For all intents, Charizard should have never been considered an Ensemble Darkhorse in the first place. If anything, it's a Breakout Character ("starting as one of three starters and now have reached the point where it got two Megaforms.") Same with Mewtwo and Lucario.

And I agree with Irene's criteria.

Could someone help me with the ED trimming on Pokémon? I removed the starters and box legendaries (though some of those got readded without discussion), and I'm not sure if others should go as well.

Have you been on Tumblr lately? Espurr's Thousand-Yard Stare has most certainly achieved meme status.

Agreed. It's definitely reached Memetic Mutation.

I don't go on tumblr, so I didn't know about that one! Probably best to add that one back then.

Personally: I've seen the Snorlax meme, Hex Maniac, Espurr's Thousand-Yard Stare, Fairy-type becoming a Memetic Badass, and BENCHES on places other than this site.

They aren't really memes though, just small jokes. I don't think any of these are widespread enough to be considered.

Snorlax has gotten a fair amount of posts and there are◊ plenty of Fairy type comics◊ and pictures◊.

I second the fairy examples as those have been pretty present in comics and fan art. Similarly, "Hoenn Confirmed!" is also something I've seen used a lot across the different forums so I would say you could put that back.

I'm going to add Espurr, Hoenn Confirmed, and Fairy being a Memetic Badass.

I'd also like to add Snorlax, but I'll hold off for more opinions on that.

Fair enough.

Seconding this. I get that it's the YMMV page but a lot of the complaints are very redundant or are even just the typical reactions to every new Pokémon game.