Discussion VideoGame / PokemonSunAndMoon

You can still add character-specific tropes to the man page as well as the charachter pages

Howeve, I am not sure what trope that would fall under.

An in-universe example of Hello, [Insert Name Here]

Except they are darker, because Team Rocket was just a Mafia, and the entries have things such as Primeape only stop being angry when they are the edge of death.

Lusamine has a much more personal effect on the main characters, and is psychotic and insane.

Its called escalation. So leave the darker entries on the wiki alone in the mean time, or else it will create an edit war.

Just having dark entries and villains isn't really enough to declare this as the DARKEST POKEMON GAMES EVER! Besides, they don't really affect the tones THAT much.

Yes, they do.

Its because it shows the psychological effects of Abuse on children. Thats not something that has ever truly been seen in pokemon, let alone the first gen.

Let them be, or I will call a Mod.

Demongod, you don't just decide to put an entry back if it's been pulled to discussion. You're contributing to the edit war.

Personally I say it doesn't count. The games have always had an underlying element of darkness to them from day 1.

Except this is even more so then usual, and its much much more upfront about it.

See all the Mega evolution entries about them bascially being violent horrors, the entries on how most of the Type:Null prototypes go mad with power, and others.

Pokedex entries are just a REALLY small part of the game, and are optional.

Yes, uh, an artificial Pokemon going mad with power is totally new.

Haven't played the game yet so I can't say, but I am pretty positive that with every single generation this argument gets repeated. Do fans just forget the older generations when a new one comes out?

The repetition here makes me believe this might be misuse...

^ Thats Anime only. In the games, he's stated to be merely a dangerous animal. The Type:Null Protoypes were literally exterminated for what happened to them.

That... sounds like splitting hairs. The games treat him as having a vicious personality and the power to match. He did raze Cinnabar Mansion.

But my point remains. We seriously have people crying Darker and Edgier with every generation. And while I haven't played yet so I can't say whether it's true or not, the repetition leaves me skeptical.

I'd personally say it counts, despite the fact that all the games have their share of dark content and the general trend towards Darker and Edgier in the series as a whole. The Pokedex entries and especially the Mega Evolution descriptions are more graphic than in previous games, the Lovecraft Light undertones of the series get cranked up to eleven by the Ultra Beasts and the fact that they apparently destroyed the Gen I - V universe.

And if not Darker and Edgier, then maybe a different trope could be found that fits.

At the very least, the trend can be noted on the franchise page as applying to the series in general.

That seems to subtle to count. Coupled with the repetition, it definitely seems it doesn't count.

Ok, what about the references to the deaths of Pokemon that I'm reading up about in this game? I'm not talking about Pokedex entries, I mean the actual storyline. In Pokemon X & Y, the backstory tells of a great war thousands of years ago where countless numbers of Pokemon and Humans were killed. Both legendaries would've required the energy of countless more pokemon for Lysandre to use them as a weapon to bring his goals to fruition, and it's specifically implied that Lysandre is straight up dead after dealing with Yvetal, and an And I Must Scream Fate Worse than Death after dealing with Xernias.

Those games establish death in the backstory, so entries for that game most certainly counted.

What does this game have to offer? Emotional and physical abuse and trauma from the Big Bad has been brought up in the past, but I think this one goes the furthest so far.

I just think the darkness has remained constant. The villains are darker, and the Dex entries, but the tone is pretty similar, light with dark undertones.

I can agree with you on that. The franchise has never presented a Crapsaccharine World or worse. I think after all these games, we're getting to the point where that would be the tipping point for the trope.

@DRCEQ: Lusamine keeps pokemon frozen solid to "admire", and she did the same thing with the 3 Type Null Protoypes after they went violent.

I can also agree with you on that. I'm not taking sides in this discussion, but trying to mediate it. I think the examples so far certainly set it apart from previous installments of Darker and Edgier from past games in the franchise.

I don't think they do, there's been dark stuff in other games, and again, the tone isn't much different.

Actually, the tone IS a bit different as you progress through the game. There's a sort of clinical creepiness to the Aether Foundation after the big reveal. It starts out like most games, but it delves deeper than even Black and White 2 did, especially with Lillie and Gladion's backstory.

Again, just a TINY bit shouldn't count. I think all of the Darkerand Edgier entries are too subtle to count.

Full list of reasons why they shouldn't count for this trope:

1- Overall tone isn't much different

2- There were worse villains before Lusamine, who tried to do things like destroy the entire universe

3- Dark Pokemon stories are a longtime characteristic. Haunter sucking out life force, Drowzee eating dreams, Cubone weeping for it's dead mom, Mewtwo being the result of horrific lab accidents, etc.

4- Death, implied or shown, has been a characteristic for a while. Giovanni was implied to commit suicide, for example.

5- Team Rocket did some pretty evil stuff, like killing Pokemon and abusing Slowpokes.

6- Far darker games exist, like Black and White, Mystery Dungeon, and Colesseum.

7- Ghehtis was already an abusive parent

8- The Ultra Beasts Probably didn't destroy Gens I-V, as evidenced by the discussion above.

So I think it should be removed.

While I do not disagree with the argument here, the Pokemon games have had some fairly mature content before, but I do remember being caught off-guard by how straightforward Sun/Moon are about it. It wasn't just a matter of whether Pokemon had dealt with it before, but it was no longer beating around the bush.

Furthermore, my experience with past games is that they often subverted their own themes. For example, the attempt in Black and White to deconstruct the genre, for me at least, was completely undermined when it was revealed Plasma was two-faced. Here, however, little is done to soften the more mature concepts, such as Lusamine's mistreatment and rejection of her children as well as the despair of Team Skull's membership.

As for the dark pokemon stories, you are correct; the attention-to-detail into Sun and Moon's pokedex entries is pretty much the same as was in Red and Blue, and there have even been examples since then. There is something to be said, however, for how the predator-prey explanations are more visceral than the last few generations' have been (which are what many fans started with), which may be why it is perceived as being darker and edgier.

Amen on the villains; I know I saw at least one post that Lusamine was more destructive than any previous villains, but the whole schtick for R/S, D/P, and X/Y was the villain potentially wiping out all life on Earth (or the universe, in Cyrus' case). The Ultra Beast threat is actually much more localized and tame by comparison; that said, the nature of the conflict between the characters is more personal, and the actual relationship between Lusamine and her children receives more attention than the relationship between N and Ghetsis (not that it is outright ignored, but the focus is more on N's self-appointed mission than on his feelings toward his father). Since it's given more attention, it may be easier for people to identify with the parent-child conflict in Sun/Moon than the more adventure-style conflict in White/Black.

In a sense, the grounds I see for saying the new games are darker stems from the perception that this story does not talk down to its audience about mature concepts, actually trusting the player can handle them, while previous games either sugarcoated them or left them hidden behind euphemisms. If nothing else, I think it's fair for "Darkier and Edgier" to be YMMV.

I definitely hear the frustration someone else mentioned on people constantly seeing each generation as darker and edgier, though; I think that follows from people wanting to believe their favorite kids' game is growing up with them, when there's no harm in acknowledging you still like playing a kids' game (pretty sure there's a trope page discussing that).

Hope all that wasn't too long...

I definitely agree that we can't keep saying every Generation is Darker and Edgier, because it just becomes meaningless. Honestly, I only think Gen V and Gen VII have a proper claim to it. Mainly because both involve real-world implications of magical animals fighting each other for sport and being caught by inexperienced children in the wild, and Gen VII in particular because it is the first game to explicitly use the words "death", "die", and "kill" while also having some 'Dex entries that sound more brutal than even some of Gen I's. Later 'Dex entries all seem to have this superstitious or fairy tale type of feel, like Drifloon trying to pull children into the underworld but being too weak to do it. This game just says in no uncertain terms that wild Pokémon eat each other and can kill people if mishandled.

Again, Pokedex entries are unimportant. They're just flavor text. It really shouldn't count as an example.

Besides, the villain's motives are less evil than some others, and there's not much deconstruction compared to Gen V, which has many complex moral questions.

@ What Art Thee, except like its been stated before, the so called Deconstructions were undermined by Ghetsis being a Card-Carrying Villain. And the Pokedex entries are actually beign referenced in game aside from what is recorded this tiem around, and unlike previous game,s these dex entries outright state what "prey" the pokemon feed on are in fact other pokemon.

Pokemon Sapphire: "Taillow is young - it has only just left its nest. As a result, it sometimes becomes lonesome and cries at night. This Pokémon feeds on Wurmple that live in forests."

Pidgeot's entry from Red and Blue: "When hunting, it skims the surface of water at high speed to pick off unwary prey such as Magikarp."

Never mind there were books in... I think X and Y about how people had eaten Pokemon in the past.

AND, the first half of the game is very lighthearted, even more so than other games.

I think it should be cut.

@What Art Thee

The very lighthearted first half is obviously meant to be a jarring contrast to the much darker second half; hence why for the first half we have humorous, incompetent Team Skull, while for the second half we have psychotic, abusive Lusamine.

The two Dex entries mentioned above are very rare exceptions to the rule, and even then, they use What Measureis A Non Cute by featuring Pokemon that are not considered cute or beautiful. SM, on the other hand, states that cute, fluffy Alolan Vulpix is divided into pieces and shared among packs of Weavile, and there are many other similar entries averting the trope.

For "dark entries from previous gens", you include Cubone crying over its dead mother. SM does in fact include the same entry, but adds an extra layer of tragedy over it by saying that Mandibuzz will hear its crying and swoop down upon it. It's pretty obvious that the games have much darker entries.

Yes, Lusamine's plans were not as destructive as Ghetsis, Cyrus, Lysandre, or even Archie and Maxie, but there's a good reason why. All of them were either Well Intentioned Extremists or motivated by self-interest. Lusamine, on the other hand, has a crazy and nonsensical plan because she was legitimately insane. Not to mention that she fuses with Nihilego at the end of the game.

And while the U Bs likely didn't destroy previous universes, Looker outright states that Guzzlord ate a partner of his 10 years ago. I know that Dex entries have said that Pokemon have killed humans before, (and Looker's info is much more reliable than Dex entries) but the fact that a human was killed by that thing is one of the few things that has legitimately disturbed me in a Pokemon game.

I agree with Draco Kanji that the Unova and Alola games should be the only main series examples for Darker and Edgier; yes, Kalos had Lysandre and AZ, and DP had Cyrus, but those games were much less plot-oriented, so they gave them much less attention. Lavender Town was dark, yes, but it was one of the few dark moments in the game, and that stuff was more fantastical (a ghost haunting a tower), while BW and SM covered more realistic topics such as failing trials and child abuse.

I agree that the fact the first half is lighthearted doesn't mean that the work as a whole is not Darker and Edgier. You're right, contrast is key.

Where you're wrong (and blatantly misrepresenting earlier games) is that the darkness level has, overall, been fairly consistent. You're grossly misrepresenting Lavender Tower, for that matter (the darkness there isn't about a ghost haunting a tower, it the fact that even in the first game there was a ginormous Pokemon cemetery). And that's just the thing. There hasn't been a major tone shift or anything. If you cherry-pick examples then you can claim any entry is Darker and Edgier and frankly, I'm sick of it. It's basically trying to turn Darker and Edgier into a YMMV item.

The first half of the game being lighter cancels out the darkness.

"Rare exceptions?" lots of old entries were very dark. Mewtwo being a victim of horrific DNA splicing, Haunter sucking out people's souls, Cubone, Lapras being hunted nearly to extinction, Psyduck being in constant agony, etc etc etc.

I say the only one that should count is Black and White.

Going to have to disagree on principle, there. Very often the first half of a work is done in a different tone in order to make shift in the latter half more jarring; take for example EVA. It began as a relatively light-hearted standard giant-mecha work specifically so that it could break that down. It's like with (the proper use of) foil, the first half can be lighter to make the darkness in the second half clearer.

I'm not saying this applies, just that that argument doesn't hold up.

I had a discussion with another user about WhatArtThee, and it seems that he edits most Pokémon-related pages and entries with the one-sided bias that "every part of the franchise is equally famous and identical in tone" unless someone corrects him.

Personally, I think Darker and Edgier is still in effect. Yes, other games had their very dark aspects (like Lavender Town and Lysandre, as mentioned), but just like BW, Sun and Moon stand out for a couple of reasons:

• The greater focus on plot, which revolves around Lusamine's abusive relationship with her children (just like with Ghetsis and N), as well as deconstructing the stereotypical goofy evil team (Team Skull) showing that they're nothing but a bunch of poor kids trying to make a living.

• Many, MANY of the Pokédex entries emphasize how dangerous the Pokémon species is and/or revolve around the predator-prey relationships between the species in the Alola Dex, which was present but uncommon in previous games.

(Also, yay Eva! Again, sorry about the Asuka thing, I'll try to cooperate better with other users from now on.)

People put too much stock in Pokedex entries. They're just flavor text.

And I think the "poor kids trying to make a living" aspect was around before, i'm pretty sure Team Rocket falls under this if not mistaken, I know they have dark backstories.

And I correct the biases because they're simply NOT TRUE. Only Black and White, as well as spinoffs like Mystery Dungeon and stuff, fall under darker, and Pokemon never really had a period where it wasn't popular.

Remember when you undid my edit to rank the later movie sequels like Pokémon: Genesect and the Legend Awakened higher than Neon Genesis Evangelion and One Piece on the Sliding Scale Of Anime Obscurity? You clearly do have a bias yourself. Yes, it was always popular, but that doesn't mean that anything associated with the franchise is automatically a pop culture juggernaut like you tried to imply.

I agree that the original version of the entry claiming that Sun and Moon are the "DARKEST GAMES EVER!" was exaggerated (it basically ignored the impact that BW had upon release), but that doesn't invalidate Sun and Moon from being Darker and Edgier than the other entries.

I was wrong about that, true. But everything else was right.

And dark backstories are nothing new, villains like AZ had much darker backstories.

And still, Pokedex entries are just flavor text.

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand like that. It's flavor text, but it's flavor text that has been equally dark for a while. And personally, I think Carnivore Confusion is definitely no darker than the fact that the last game explicitly said that human beings ate Pokemon.

Tom eating Jerry isn't dark or edgy. But a human eating Tom? That's pretty messed up.

But that's kind of my point. What's "darker" or not, unless it's a major tonal shift, is basically up to personal opinion. And we seem to be splitting hairs to such a minute extent that I don't think it should apply. Darker and Edgier and Lighter and Softer doesn't have to apply to every single entry in a series.

Makes sense. However, it's probably best IMO if the page is clear about the deconstructive story and more realistic Pokédex entries through other tropes, rather than going "oh, the series has always been like that" like WAT seems to insist on.

@Larkamarn

Yes, good point about Lavender Tower. However, while I do agree that all games have a constant tone, I'm saying that SM is clearly less hesitant of tackling darker themes, than other main series games (though I do think that there are darker spin-off games). All other main series games also had very dark elements, but paid less attention to them and did not incorporate them as much as BW or SM, likely because in both games, the elements affect characters at a more personal level. Even Ghetsis was a Card-Carrying Villain who just wanted power, though he was still a very dark villain for the franchise (though whether Lusamine's treatment of Lillie or Ghetsis' treatment of N is worse is up to you). And for the Tom and Jerry example, let's remember that children are the game's intended audience, and many would be scared if they saw Tom eating Jerry. And what about Tom eating a human? (see my reference to Guzzlord above).

@What Art Thee

For "rare exceptions" I was referring to specific Pokemon predator-prey relationships. And while I think that BW is a clear example of Darker and Edgier, SM definitely does also fit in the entry. Perhaps the entries are exaggerated, but the idea still does stand on its own.

@WhatArtThee: Stop it with your constant reinforcing of your bias that "these games are exactly like the other Pokémon games which all have equal amounts of dark moments and introspection guys!!!". I'm still talking to another user about it and we both think it's a problem, especially since you seem to be the only user making such edits and are doing it aggressively, even getting into edit wars and deleting entries that have already been commented out due to discussion.

If you want to continue arguing, do it here rather than through edit wars. You already brought it to Larkmarn's attention that not every entry has to qualify for Lighter and Softer or Darker and Edgier, so just continue that way.

"while I do agree that all games have a constant tone"

That alone disqualifies it from this trope.

Also, Darthrai, i'm not biased towards all Pokemon games having the game tone, i'm just stating truths. This game is no darker than the others.

Putting this to rest for why it doesn't count, or Deconstruction, OR What Do You Mean, It's for Kids?.

1. The tone of the games is still very much the same. And that's what matters. Villains being darker or Pokedex entries don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

2. People exaggerate Lusamine's darkness. Yes, she's a dark villain, but Ghehtis, Team Galactic, and AZ all had darker motives and sometimes personalities. Also, her "abusiveness" is exaggerated. She's very overbearing, yes, and forceful, but lots of parents are like that, and aren't really "abusive".

3. The whole thing about the Ultra Beasts destroying the world is nonsense. There is NO evidence to prove they did.

4. Pokedex entries are flavor text, flavor text that's been dark for quite some time. Mewtwo being a victim of horrific gene splicing, Cubone and weeping for his mom, Haunter sucking out life...

5. The "Deconstructive" elements are overexaggerated. Team Skull count, but the rest are HARDLY examples.

6. The lighthearted first half makes it less dark.

Seems that people are way overexaggerating this game, and that the entries should be dropped.

Yeah, they need to go. Not much to say that hasn't already been said on the subject.

@What Art Thee

1. The problem is, if we judge the games by just average tone, then no main series game is Darker and Edgier than the other. DP, XY, and BW / B 2 W 2 all had an overall lighthearted tone, but also had their own dark moments, which is why we say Darker and Edgier for each. SM is no exception, except even darker.

2. The extent of a villain's plans does not matter as much as what impact they have. Lusamine has a more personal impact on main characters than most other villains aside from Ghetsis, and even Ghetsis was evil the entire time, while Lillie indicates that Lusamine was a loving mother before she snapped after Mohn's apparent "death". Not to mention that she fuses with Nihilego , becoming an extremely creepy abomination in the process.

And about abusive:

Lillie: "But...but when you took Null and left Aether Paradise two years ago... you left me alone with Mother! She was so bad after you left! If I hadn’t had Wicke with me..."

That, when combined with all other evidence in the game, pretty obviously says she that she was not just "overbearing and forceful".

3. Agreed. Doesn't make them any less terrifying, though. 4. See my previous comments. 5. Agreed, but Lusamine's comments and personality work as well. 6. See my previous comments, and Larkmarn's.

And why are we even debating on this? The majority of people in the fandom definitely agree on this: there are already tons of posts on the Pokemon subreddit on this topic. Check any Youtube video of the Motherbeast Lusamine boss fight and you'll have people crying Darker and Edgier. Heck, Kotaku ran an entire article on the Pokedex entries shortly after the games were leaked! We can keep discussing how dark the games are when compared to other Pokemon games, but the fact stands: the games are Darker and Edgier and the entries (aside from Deconstruction) should stay.

See, here's the thing, Pokemon fans love crying out that everything is Darker and Edgier. And sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not. You just said that four straight generations are Darker and Edgier, which is precisely why this is likely to be misuse. If every installment is Darker and Edgier, then each installment has to be appreciably darker than the last one.

And "well the fandom has been saying this from release day!" means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Like I said, fandoms love crying out Darker and Edgier, for some reason. Remember, for about a week, this very page took it as a fact that the Ultra Beasts destroyed the Gen 1-5 continuity based pretty much on "well, it would be pretty dark if they did!"

1. That's why none of the other games count either. Black and White has a decent case, but not the rest.

2. She still doesn't have enough to qualify. And "very bad" is ambiguous.

3. Nothing to say here.

4. Regardless of darkness, they're still flavor text.

5. Lusamine's not much of a "player".

6. It doesn't cancel out the darkness, but something that's light at first and gets darker is lighter than something that is dark the whole way through.

And the reddit posts and Kotaku are ALL about the Pokedex entries. People do love crying out Darker. I mean, have you seen all the people crying this for every MLP: FIM season?

I'll just like to say that there is the fact that Guzzlord ate a girl and a women and killed a person stated by Looker and this isn't even in the subtext. It's stated to you in your face in the post game. That should be more than enough proof because we've only had subtly before. (They didn't state that Lysandre died it was only implied) The people who made the game are growing with the older audience. Many people I've seen on sites are wondering why it got an E rating and not E10+. This deserves it and saying you're constantly right is just proof of bias.

If anyone has bias, it is you Reyn. You consistently overstate the darkness in the games, meaning your edits have to be removed more often than not. At no point did we actually see someone died, making it little different from other Pokemon stories. If anything, seeing the ghost of the dead Marowak gives a standard for the games that has not greatly been deviated from.

I don't overstate the darkness. I put stuff that is stated to be quite dark in the game if not downright Nightmare Fuel and I let them be. Maybe I went too far when the game came out because I didn't know the full side of the game (Only saw some of it with the leaks) but I've finished the game now and I know a lot more of the content shown. Also that is an animal being shown dead. There's a big difference in terms of content when you see a person die compared to a fantasy animal.

Also on a side note (I don't know how much this means tbh) but the Nightmare Fuel page is huge compared to the other ones in terms of length and had to split into 3 sub-sections.

The thing that seems to be the source of this debate, from my point of view, is that Sun/Moon are very upfront about the franchise's darker aspects, and they also deal with real-world issues like poverty, homelessness, and yes, abuse. However, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire also had postgame storylines that brought up issues like depression, broken families, and the like. Even if it could be argued that Sun and Moon are darker in tone than most Pokemon games, they're just continuing from the immediately preceding installments in that regard. So, not really Darker and Edgier.

I've been active in the Pokemon fandom for a really long time, and this happens pretty much every time a new pair of games comes out. People take notice of the darkest parts of the plot and/or lore, cherry pick and hold up the most extreme examples, and it gets passed around the fandom like a game of Telephone. Then once the new game hype dies down, we all go back with a clear head and ses things more objectively, without all the rumors and hyperbole clouding our judgment. What I'm saying is, maybe we should put a moratorium on this debate for a little while.

I would agree on putting a moratorium on this debate, it's been going on for the past three weeks now without actually going anywhere.

Agreed. There's no rush, and it will help cooler heads to prevail. We seriously go through this with every generation.

I just want to say that the Nightmare Fuel page being big means nothing. My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic has SIX separate PAGES, each with subdivisions for EVERY episode.

Honestly, I do think we should give it a rest, but no one should add it back.

I third this; this debate isn't doing much so far.

@What Art Thee

I'm not trying to rekindle the debate, but I don't think that it's the best idea to compare a single standalone video game's NF page with that of a television show that has over 5-6 seasons.

Yeah, it's a pointless comparison. Both for the "single work vs. multiseason series" and the fact that it was a nonsensical thing to bring up in the first place.

Going away from Darker and Edgier I think Hotter and Sexier is way more controversial. X and Y had a insane amount of sexual innuendo's, the character designs in ORAS were pretty revealing for the females (Phoebe, Shelly, Flannery and even Lisia) compared to S&M and you could have the main female character in X and Y practically half naked and it was played for Fanservice because she was about 16 which is the age of consent in lots of countries. The only difference is the amount of Lampshade Hanging.

The sexy walks aren't even that big of a deal. I don't see it being that trope. Hotter and Sexier should really only fit for Pokemon Generations, Electric Tale of Pikachu (Obviously) and Adventures.

I mean the title alone kinda makes it Hotter and Sexier, does it not? :)

Accidental Innuendo

More like Accidental InnuWINdo.

Someone just added it back. I'll remove it.

One of the main reasons why I think it's considered Darker and Edgier is pretty simple. The fact that it was stated that a girl was eaten (Which for death in Pokemon is pretty gory) and the fact that it's very similar to Mami's death in Madoka which immediately qualified after that episode by the people who made it. Obviously it got darker as the show went on but still. It's the same type of thing here (Hell it might be a Shout-Out) so if one counts for Darker and Edgier so should the other one.

That's how it works right?

Following the description Darker and Edgier, Darker and Edgier is "A Tone Shift that seeks to make a work of fiction more serious, cynical or gritty.". This is the problem, despite their dark moments, the Sun And Moon games do not represent a Tone Shift. The own original games have a haunted cemetery tower with lots of kids crying about their dead pokemon with a music that sounds both sad and creepy and possessed chanelers threatening steal the soul of the Kid Hero.

Reyn, let's just wait it out. A lot of people (including some mods on other parts of the site) think that we should wait it out.

Lots of people are a bit too close to this at the moment. Let more people play the games, then let it sort of sink in rather than just react emotionally. Jumping the gun is what led to the whole "OMG THEY DESTROYED THE G1-5 DIMENSION!!!!!!" fiasco.

Do we want to set a date for when we should continue discussion?

Yeah I think we should set a date. Sometime in January I think. Two months from the official release should be more than enough time to take everything in.

Sounds good. January 18, then?

As for Hotter and Sexier, having begun the game, it might apply. You're right that character art has been pretty consistent in its revealing-ness for a while, but the character models are more realistic here. But an hour into the game there's a long, lingering shot of people on the beach including panning over a few women in bikinis which is incredibly blatant fanservice that I haven't seen in a main-series game. If that's at all indicative of the game (and the entry says that there's more, and that it's self-referenced), then it'd definitely apply.

EDIT: And now more lampshades to how Professor Kukoi is a Walking Shirtless Scene. And then him showing up as a shirtless Masked Luchador. I think we can definitely say this applies.

Not only is there more fanservice, the fact that it knows that there is more has created a very noticeable shift. In previous games, if there was a fanservice-y character, they were just... sorta there. This draws attention to it and makes it even clearer.

Alright. So. Having gone through the game, I really don't think Darker and Edgier applies. Hotter and Sexier most definitely, but not Darker and Edgier.

The game's overall tone is really quite light-hearted. The Ultra Beasts (and to a lesser extent Lusamine) play the role of Knight of Cerebus, but overall the game keeps its light, soft tone. Even the supposed "edgy, realistic portrayals of child abuse" amount to some harsh words from the Big Bad... who ultimately gets redeemed anyway, and turns out is acting under the influence of a toxin anyway. And Lillie bounces back from that during said arc, coping by acting like she's reached her Z-Powered form. So even when it's getting serious, it maintains the light-hearted tone. Which seems like it's the point; it wants to touch upon serious issues but it doesn't want to become Darker and Edgier.

I really feel like people have been overstating the darkness in the game by a significant margin. Even the darkness that is there is kind of offset (from an "-ier" perspective) by the fact that it's mostly in earlier games as well. Hell, even all the dark Pokedex stuff (which is honestly fairly secondary at best) isn't much worse than previous generations, there's just more of it so the will be more dark entries can be cherry-picked.

Ultimately that sums up how I feel about the game. It's not Darker and Edgier, but it's bigger. So there is more darkness and more edges... but there's also more light and more curves.

... Mimikyu's effed up, though. And I love it.

It's a weird one. The game has a lot of light moments but when it does get dark it gets really dark at times. Like the abuse of Lillie and Gladion, Guzzlord stating to have ate a person which is messed up even with stuff like the Pokemon Tower. There's also the fact that the game uses the word Kill or Die a lot which is something that hasn't happened since Gen 1 but the rival is really caring and the first half is pretty friendly and Team Skull isn't meant to be taken seriously until Po Town but that is because of Surprise Creepy.

See, okay, that there is sort of the problem when I say people are overstating the darkness. "Guzzlord stating to have ate a person." That's coming from a single line of dialogue (in optional, post-game content, no less) stating that someone has been "done in" by an unspecified Ultra Beast. Yet you're stating it as a fact that someone is said to have been eaten by Guzzlord.

I said earlier (before playing the game) that the fact the first half of the game is light-hearted doesn't necessarily mean that the game can't be Darker and Edgier. The lightness of the first half can be used to contrast the darkness coming later. But in this case, that lightness never stops peeking through. Even when things are at their darkest, with Nebby getting drained and the Ultra Beasts released, the work is still optimistic and we're seeing the quest to stop the Ultra Beasts not as an edgy fight for their lives but as a still light-hearted romp where your travelling companion is happier than ever and doing goofy poses. And when you do confront the Big Bad, no one dees, she even gets redeemed and it's ultimately revealed that nothing she did was even her fault (theoretically undermining the whole "child abuse" thing, which is also not really Darker and Edgier either). There's even a Dance Party Ending.

I'm not saying the game doesn't have dark and/or edgy elements. But I'm saying that they're not darker or edgier to constitute a tone shift compared to earlier works.

I feel like the games having dark elements isn't that big but it's how it relates to real life. Poverty, parental abuse and homelessness are the three big things there and it's much more realistic than someone causing genocide recently. In fact that's also why I think it should count as a Deconstruction or at least Reality Ensues.

Also you could argue the last couple of games besides X and Y's genocidal plot were more subtle. This one really isn't. But yeah once the Knight of Cerebrus goes away it's pretty light and happy again.

No, and no. It would only be a whole plot reference if the game literally referenced the entire storyline of Kill La Kill, where mysterious alien clothes started abducting trainers and pokemon, adding them to their armies, with Lusamine's ultimate intention of destroying the planet only being halted by a stripperific trainer and a resistance group who don't believe in wearing clothes.

Except the Ultra Beasts are practically the Life Fibers (Both are parasitic aliens that invade a person and kill people and go on to destroy the planet), Lusamine is Ragyo and both their plans are pretty identical (That's obvious), Silvally isn't far off from Senketsu (Both are beings made to destroy the parasites that take over peoples minds controlled by someone who has that typical red and black edgy design choice) and Gladion is pretty close to Ryuko. The only difference is the revealing clothing thing and there's still a lot more self aware fanservice in this game. The character designs are pretty close and we do have a tutor who is half naked.

It's pretty close to the show and one part of the YMMV states that people can't help but wonder if it's a Whole-Plot Reference.

If people can't help but wonder if it is one, then there's no definitive confirmation that it is.

There's similarities, but not enough for it to be called a Whole-Plot Reference.

I was thinking that because there's going to be interviews from the Official Pokemon Sun & Moon Strategy Guide soon we could wait until then and see if he says that Kill la Kill was the main inspiration or not.

Eh, fans tend to way overreact to vague similarities and are way too quick to call Expy or Shout-Out. Some vague similarities or shoehorns really does not a Whole-Plot Reference make.

Out of note, Reyn Time 250 included the entry in the Shout-Out page. The interview confirmed that the similarities are intentional?

They've also added Expy on Lusamine and Nihelgo's character sheets.

The Strategy guide made no mention of Kill la Killl. There is no evidence whatsoever that the show influenced the games.

The entry explicitly calls it a Whole-Plot Reference on ShoutOut.Pokemon, too.

^^Must the entry be removed in this case?

The Expy thread also shot down the Expy examples as-written.

The game itself might not be so similar but Lusamine and Ragyo are. What's the chances of how much they do in similar behaviour is all a coincidence? It's very rare. It's almost exact except Lusamine has a more tragic backstory.

A Woman In White who is the Big Bad who is the leader of a huge company with over the top hair and constantly abuses two family members due to a father being missing isn't a reference? I don't know any other villain besides Ragyo and Lusamine that strike so many similarities down.

Also there's two guides from what I heard on the Pokemon subreddit and I'm pretty sure most of those Shout-Outs weren't mentioned in the book anyway. Does that mean all of them should go? Seems like it's broken logic on if "The guide doesn't say anything so it shall get removed".

I mean, if the YMMV.Pokemon Sun And Moon's Counterpart Comparison section is anything to go by, the tropes aren't that uncommon. Just because the KLK fandom is louder doesn't make them more worthy of going onto the main pages.

That said, a LOT of the Shout-Outs are serious stretches and could stand to be trimmed.

I'll say the Shout-Outs that are stretches are the asdfmovie one, Unseen Hands, the Salandits tail one because it has the (Intentionally or otherwise) and the Goku throwing the Spirit Bomb to Kid Buu. The last one just seems like Counterpart Comparison. It is just a giant bubble.

Seconded on all of those.

I did find a post that describes the similarities pretty well on Know Your Meme

- Shitty parent who disowns their children

- Owner of large corporation to make the world a more beautiful place

- Clicks heels on floor when pissed

- Would rather spread alien lifeforms across the globe than spend time with their children

- Ultimately fuses with said alien lifeform in the end

- Is the true antagonist of story, after a group of decoys take the mantle for a good portion of it

- Husband seemingly disappears off the face of the planet

- Her two children have a white color scheme and a red/black color scheme

- Being the mother of the red and black child is a twist in the story

- Red and black child develops close bond with a hybrid created to combat the aliens and both become stronger through The Power of Friendship

- Final fight takes place away from earth

At this point, anyone who disagrees is only kidding themselves. (Yes that last bit came with the comment)

Cut the Nintendo Hard example.

Ignore.

I don't see why not.

Eh. I honestly think both of these images aren't too Nightmare Fuel worthy.

We can't use it because it's a massive spoiler image.

I personally don't care since imo Nightmare Fuel should intrinsically be Spoilers Off, but it'll likely be caught by Image Pickin and eventually changed.

The picture in question is ALREADY Nihilusamine. The question is whether to change it to a more clear one.

I think the one already in use makes her look more nightmarish, honestly.

Made an Image Pickin thread due to current being a spoiler.

First off:

Some of Lusamine's actions (And even her motivations) actually make her somewhat like a player of the Pokémon games. And it's played for horror. Lusamine loves Pokémon and wants all of them... which is a common goal in the franchise. Lusamine has a huge collection of Pokémon in cryogenic stasis. Hau, Lilie, and the Player character (if s/he ever changed facial expressions) are horrified at seeing this. How many players have a huge collection of Pokémon in PC Stasis, just like her? When Lillie calls her out on treating Pokémon and people as merely things to use and discard as she pleases, Lusamine responds by asking what makes her so different from the player character putting Pokémon they no longer need inside a Box. A brand new unknown Pokémon appears. What does Lusamine want with it? Why... she wants it herself. Which most players wanted with the Ultra Beasts anyway.

I believe this counts as a deconstruction, since it shows how the way the player plays the game would not work In-Universe: collecting and then storing a massive amount of Pokémon and wanting a Pokémon for the sake of having it are elements common in these games, but this game shows just how such a person would really come of as if they actually went through with all that. It is an extremely poorly worded entry though.

Next:

Team Skull is of the concept of sending young children out into the world alone. Many members mention suffering from horrible self esteem over always losing, homelessness, and failing to complete the islands' trials. When you finally reach the town they are based out of, it is in ruins with almost no power or supplies. As one Grunt says early on, they're not out to take over the world or anything, they just want money to just be able to survive.

As someone who actually played the game he is discussing tropes from, take it from me, this is legit.

You are absolutely right as far as the rival is concerned.

As for the opening sentence, I suggest:

Like Black and White before them, these games deconstruct some of the aspects and tropes that are otherwise taken for granted in the franchise .

I don't doubt that there are legit examples of various Deconstructed Tropes. I'm just saying that these were clearly written by someone who has an incorrect idea of what a Deconstructed Trope is. See, that's the thing, an entry should make sense to someone who hasn't played the game, otherwise it has insufficient context. Specifically, I believe that there may be a Deconstructed Trope example of Gotta Catch 'Em All as you say, but, you know, the writeup didn't even mention the trope.

Mons in particular have a very peculiar relationship with Deconstruction, what with the first mons game being about the apocalypse and the monsters were gods and demons that wreaked havoc on the world and nuked most of it in the first act, so I would question any Genre Deconstruction here no matter what.

Seems like this fits into a common theme of people mistaking Deconstruction for Darker and Edgier.

There's already a pretty big debate about whether these games even qualify for Darker and Edgier.

Just nuke it, Larkman.

I will nuke it.

I just want to point that it feels like an edit war is starting up about whether Genre Deconstruction and Darker and Edgier should be commented out on the main page.

Fair warning, folks, we could get the entire page locked up if that keeps up.

I'm not going to change the page anymore. The reason I unhid the Darker and Edgier and Genre Deconstruction was because at the top of the page it was called a Darker and Edgier Deconstruction and for a while it was being accepted so I thought that it would be okay to be unhidden from people especially because the discussion seemed to be going nowhere. Now that's changed though I guess it's alright to stay it hidden.

Maybe it is, but the entries listing it were completely unrelated to the trope.

Maybe? I'm not entirely sure.

No. An Interface Screw would be something that directly hinders the interface directly. In this case, the Rotom Dex.

A mild, yet nonetheless valid of Interface Screw from Pokemon X And Y comes in the fact that when it is raining, you can see rain drops splashing against the bottom screen where the Fight/Pokemon/Bag/Run options appear in battle and the other options on the menu.

For this game, it would have to be a similar effect, even if it is just a visual aesthetic.

IIRC, your hand turned slimy in Pokemon-Amie if you tried to pet such pokemon like Grimer or Solosis. I know that it would freeze, burn, or get bandaged up in response to touching a cold, hot, or sharp part of a pokemon (making it literally impossible to touch Slugma or Cryoganal), but that wasn't an interface screw.

I would have to agree. A lot of people think that the Pokedex entries are the result of the Rotom living inside it, and how they've been well known in the past to play pranks on trainers. There's no actual evidence to support that Rotom-Dex is messing with you.

The Dex is an Unreliable Expositor because of Gameplay and Story Segregation, but I agree that we shouldn't assume it's lying or we're being screwed with.

^ Not as much as before, especially since many sidequests are about the pokedex entries as well.

I found out about the Downer Ending through the leaks where someone said that something would happen in the post game which is why Anabel looks like her normal self in Sun & Moon. Also I'm pretty sure it's confirmed if so many people are saying it. Maybe you might have missed a part of the text or you skimmed through it too quickly or something.

Where in the text? Do you have a link to a video or screenshot showing it? That would be useful since there is still ambiguity on exentnt of the destruction that I have been looking for clarification on but not finding, and is seems so have others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRg3Csyigus Should be around here somewhere in the wall of text (Keep in mind it's a lets player doing the game in this video)

Maybe I might have missed a part of the text or skimmed through it, yes. I'm not the most attentive person. I'm already done this sidequest so unfortunately I can't go back and look at it. I'll take a look at that video for now, hell, I'll even go back to the Aether Foundation to talk to Wicke for more info about the Ultra Beasts, but I need to see where exactly it's been stated that the Gen I to V universes are destroyed.

After all... just because so many people are saying it doesn't mean it's entirely confirmed, does it? It could have just been a fan interpretation that spread like wildfire. I could be wrong, but I'll take another look at this whole thing in a bit.

I think in the video it said that we cannot let this world get destroyed by the Ultra Beasts implying one they are capable of doing that and why would they throw a random hyperbole to make the threat larger and two it must of happened otherwise Anabel wouldn't get so serious about it.

The thing is, that doesn't explicitly state the extent of the damage they've done. For all we know, they could have started causing damage, there might have been casualties, but I don't want to believe an entire world was destroyed, let alone an entire universe. I don't wanna believe the people there were entirely powerless. Yes, they're capable of destruction, but really, a lot of Pokemon are. On top of that, they're not invincible. Hell, you could have Pokemon like Legendaries go up against them since their stats are comparable.

She could have very well said that because of how eldritch they are in nature. She saw something that doesn't even quite look like Pokemon, but are stronger than a lot of them and seem to be capable of a lot of destruction. But we just don't know the extent of that destruction. It doesn't necessarily mean that the world is destroyed, but that they're a threat to the world.

The thing is, it's stated that they destroyed -A- world, but not that they destroyed everything from before Gen VI. Not even that they completely destroyed the Universe they're from. Plus, OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire revealed there's an infinite number of alternate universes as a subtly meta implication that each copy of every game is its own universe, hence the use of a device called the Link Cable to connect them. So there isn't even a single universe of timeline, but countless.

I think the page needs to be rewritten without the assumption that the entire series before Gen VI was retconned out of existence unless there's something more explicit or from an official source to verify it. Just because they said that this Universe survived because they had Mega Evolution does NOT mean that this is a separate Universe from previous games, since Gen VI isn't even implied to be a separate world from the previous games. All indications suggest that Mega Evolution was a uniquely Kalosan battle tactic until recently when it got exported to Hoenn, possibly as a result of the failed firing of the Ultimate Weapon.

I've looked through the video, I've found nothing to say the pre Gen-V games were the ones destroyed, or even anything clearly confirming that any world was destroyed. We need a better source to confirm this, or figure out how the pre Gen-V assumption came from, it's starting to look like a misconception and/or exaggeration.

I'm seeing this on forums like Game Faqs everywhere though. This is a bit weird. Where the fuck are they getting this from and where is this explained? I haven't played the game myself and I only looked at the leaked data and other tidbits because I don't care about spoilers.

I'd also be all for rewriting the pages without that assumption, because it's an implication at best. The only issue then is that it's been mentioned practically anywhere the Ultra Beasts are mentioned on these pages so there's a lot of rewriting. I'd also wait to hear from an explicit or official source because otherwise this is just implications.

Besides... I... really don't wanna believe that these past seventeen years (Gen I to V) were just destroyed at the hands of these eldritch monsters. That all of those adventures and fun times you had were all for naught because now they were destroyed by the Ultra Beasts.

Apparently the retcon did take place because this tweet got deleted 2 weeks ago due to the Downer Ending. Did the information of the downer ending come from the leaker? That was one of the things I couldn't find on Reddit at all. This is the tweet that got deleted◊. EDIT: That image was what was deleted two months ago. This is the timebase the post was made in it's language. https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=lang%3Aja%20since%3A2014-05-07%20until%3A2014-05-07&src=typd

This confirms it's gone now. So should we keep it?

... what?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

Hold on a second apparently there was a statement that stated that Anabel was protecting a battle tower, she's a Champion level trainer and she failed which meant something was attacking it. Universe destruction = Don't know but we do know something attacked the original timeline.

This timeline is more complicated than Zelda's now that it's a multiverse.

Having done the Ultra Beast sidequest last night, while there's implications that something happened to the original universe, at no point do they outright say that the pre-Gen VI universe was completely destroyed.

As far as can be told, they just said an alternate reality where Mega Evolution was never discovered got attacked, and Anabel was from that universe. They don't say at any point that games prior to the introduction of Mega Evolution are a separate universe either. Mega Evolution was stated to have originated in Kalos as a result of the game's backstory. That doesn't mean it didn't exist, just that Mega Stones were only found in Kalos until they started showing up in Hoenn. There's nothing to suggest that the previously assumed timeline that the games' stories follow has been completely abandoned for a soft retcon that removes all previous games from existence.

In response to Reyntime 250 (love the name, btw), I don't recall any line in the game about her protecting the battle tower from anything. I recall Looker explaining that she only remembered: her name, that she's from Hoenn, that she was a Frontier Brain, and that she was a good trainer. I don't remember anything indicating that she had been protecting it from some sort of invasion; I'd appreciate a link to that dialogue or official statement saying this was so. I'll admit I'm not hostile to the idea (it'd basically a pokemon version of "The History of Trunks," which is still one of my favorite DBZ movies, and fanart about it would be awesome), but I would like better confirmation than just rampant fanon.

My understanding, based on the game explanations, is that Alola in Sun/Moon is the universe that's originating the Ultra Wormholes and sucking in people and creatures from other universes, mainly due to the Legendary mons' powers. So I don't think it's meant to be implied that the Ultra Beasts have been out destroying other worlds or universes because the method by which they travel doesn't come from them, it comes from a creature specific to the current game universe (or those close to it). Granted, the pokedex goes into great detail about their destructive potential, but it all seems to be information gathered on the Ultra Beasts after their arrival on Alola.

I almost wonder if the theory isn't going around because folks got overexcited at how much darker this game already was and wanted it to go another level.

@TacoF1sh: I'm inclined to agree with your assertions. Looking over the 'Dex entries for the Ultra Beasts, they don't say anything about having destroyed a whole universe, just eye-witness claims of devastation. Anabel doesn't say anything about having come from a dead reality either. But Alola is not a "universe" in and of itself considering the main character is from Kanto, and only just moved to Alola recently. Gen 2 and its remakes also included Kanto, and characters from previous generations keep making random cameos in later games, suggesting they're NOT meant to be separate realities. In fact, the idea only seemed to crop up with this particular generation that other regions are different universes.

Just as examples, every previous Gym Leader shows up in Black 2 and White 2, and Cynthia shows up in both Black and White and HeartGold and SoulSilver. They're treated like they're the same individuals as they were in their home games and occasionally mention events from them. Plus, official word is that B2 and W2 took place at the same time as X and Y. There isn't a complete timeline like with Zelda, but there's enough of one to know that saying that previous generations are a separate universe is both contradictory and unsubstantiated.

I'd also like to add that the timeline that was posted on Twitter did not specifically say that there was an alternate universe, just which games took place concurrently and in what order. I don't believe the meant FireRed/LeafGreen = OmegaRuby/AlphaSapphire means those games are alternate realities to each other, nor do I think we should necessarily consider originals and remakes to be different continuities, just retcons.

That said, there is a sort of AU thing going on between different versions of the games with massive differences in events, like Ruby and Sapphire, Black and White, and their remakes, sequels, and third-versions. But that part gets explained in Delta Episode rather explicitly, but not by implying previous games aren't part of the same continuity.

And as far as saying "we can't let the Ultra Beasts destroy this world", without further context the only thing that insinuates is that they COULD destroy the world, not that they previously have.

You might want to go to Trope Finder.

It's an objective fact that's it's a nerf. If it's being used as a complaint, rewrite to remove excess negativity.

The end result of gaining Cursed Body in place of Levitate is that Ground-type moves which previously required Gravity to work can now damage it with no special preparation. Being part Poison-type, this also means Gengar takes Super Effective damage from moves it was once immune to. Cursed Body is still pretty good, but only works a third of the time and just disables a direct-damage move for a few turns. This means Gengar has moved down in the tiers due to one of its biggest advantages being taken away, while not really gaining any in return.

Not until tomorrow. The game releases in the US tomorrow, and this website is based in the US.

The only condition for unlocking it is that the games have been legally released somewhere. Also, somebody already made the unlock request.

Now the games are officially out everywhere except Europe

To prevent people from adding things that were leaked from the datamine

Let me guess not until the game comes out on November 18th?

Pretty much.

What about legitimately revealed pre-release information, like from the trailers we've been seeing thus far? Are we just not going to update until the games come out?

Use the Locked Pages thread in the Frequently Asked Questions section of the forums to request edits for the page.

Apologies if I accidentally contributed to the misinformation.

On a related note, the recent edit regarding the lack of trading with Gen VI should, once the lock is over, be edited to clarify that trading between generations isn't traditional for the series anyway; it hasn't happened since gen II.

Ahh, thank you for that clarification. I'm the one who wrote that. I know that it wasn't possible to trade from Gen 6 back into Gen 5 and all, but Gen 5 didn't have important items like mega stones that can only be transferred by trading.