Unclear Description: Big Bad Ensemble

The first paragraph of Big Bad Ensemble states that "The story features two or more Big Bads, each of whom has their own distinct agenda and resources. The result can be Evilvs Evil, Eviler than Thou, Enemy Mine, Villain Team-Up or Big Bad Duumvirate, but it may be the case that none of the villains have anything to do with each other, and may not even be aware of each other. Played straight, each Big Bad should be of a comparable threat level to prevent one from overshadowing the other(s)."

The last part, though, isn't exactly accurate. While many works have a Big Bad Ensemble, one villain will almost always outshine the competition in terms of competence, heinousness, or prominence. For the page image, for example, Harry has a Heel–Face Turn, while the symbiote/Venom far overshadows the Sandman in sadism and threat (and Sandman also has something of a Heel–Face Turn anyway).

Examples of this from the page (most of the ones I'm not including I simply don’t know enough about the source material to verify if they’re truly played straight):

Some of these specific examples could use cleaning up, a majority simply list off major antagonists of the story. Getting rid of all of the inaccurate ones, however, would be incredibly lengthy and remove almost all of the examples—stories with two unaffiliated yet equally dangerous BigBads are very rare compared to stories with notable secondary antagonists. I doubt I could name ten off the top of my head.

The currently inaccurate approach helps to serve as a useful buffer: taking Ant-Man and the Wasp as an example, I think Sonny Burch shouldn’t be anywhere near a Big Bad. He's incompetent compared to Ghost and is taken out by the sidekicks. However, some people think of him as the true villain, as he's more evil and is prominent enough to count. Listing them both in a Big Bad Ensemble prevents an argument. This format also allows for acknowledgement of independent villains that aren't Disc One Final Bosses or Big Bad Wannabes, but are still integral antagonists.

To make the description a bit more accurate, I want to make something like this the second paragraph of the page (removing the last sentence of the first):

When played straight, each Big Bad should be of a comparable threat level to prevent one from overshadowing the other(s). More commonly, though, this trope applies to situations with prominent secondary independent threats. Maybe they're incredibly persistent BigBadWannabes; maybe they're Disc One Final Bosses, with the true Big Bad simply being the last remaining villain out of the ensemble; maybe they're just especially prominent obstacles that provide an additional threat for an arc, or even momentarily eclipse the Big Bad through scale of danger posed or the directness in which they antagonize the protagonists (these types should generally be more integral to the overall Story Arc than the average Arc Villain).

EDIT: Okay, looking at other threads I clearly did not understand exactly what I was supposed to do. Will come back later with a better proposal.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Mar 12th 2021 at 11:21:52 AM

Opening this.

So...does anyone have any ideas for this trope?

It seems to me that many examples fit neither the concept of Big Bad nor Ensemble. If a work has a bunch of antagonists that are all equally important/threatening, then you don't have a Big Bad. Many cases also don't have an ensemble of villains, but rather several different, rival villains. I'm not convinced this is a trope on it's own that can't be covered by other tropes like Big Bad Duumvirate or Evil Versus Evil.

Not technically true at all. A Big Bad is just the character who poses the threat to the heroes; they're the one who needs to be stopped to end the plot. You can have multiple threatening villains in a work and still have only one Big Bad if the others aren't the cause of the plot.

Bumping. Seems no one knows what to do with this.

You mean "A Big Bad is not just the character who poses the threat to the heroes", right?

Anyway, since the Big Bad has to be responsible, or is the cause of, whatever primary conflict the heroes must deal with, the only way I see this trope (two or more "main" villains who are equally threatening) working is when the story has Two Lines, No Waiting, and both Plot A and Plot B are equally serious problems, and each are caused by independent villains who are not working together.

Edited by Adept on May 7th 2021 at 9:55:15 PM

No, I meant that that's what they are. They're the main threat to the heroes. That's their primary role in the story. Maybe they're not only that, but I did in fact mean what I typed.

I mean, doesn't "people who are threats to the heroes" describe virtually every villain aside from Mooks and the Harmless Villain? And sure, if we use that as the definition of the "big bad" in Big Bad Ensemble, there might be more valid examples, but if we use the proper definition of Big Bad (as the trope name imples)—where they are the main source of conflict that the story needs to resolve, i.e. the reason why the hero is going through his journey, then it's more restrictive.

Like, if the hero's quest is to get a MacGuffin and three independent villains all want to get their hands on it, then they'd fit in the first definition, but not the second, since they're basically just obstacles to the hero, but their presence isn't necessary for the hero to start pursuing his goal.

Edited by Adept on May 7th 2021 at 11:17:16 PM

I think we're in agreement here but using different terms. By "main threat", I do mean that they're the ones behind the conflict and they're the ones who need to be stopped.

Sorry for the confusion, but reading your post made me realize you're saying the exact thing I'm trying and apparently failing to say.

Does anyone actually know what to do with this? The OP even says as such:

Evidently the OP never came back, so is this thread even salvageable?

I still maintain that this is Not A Trope, as it misuses the concept of Big Bad.

That said, that's kind of a drastic step for something with no wick check so not sure what should be done here.

Edited by naturalironist on May 25th 2021 at 3:34:12 PM

Yeah, I'm honestly good with closing and maybe revisiting if anyone wants to do a wick check later. It's not worth keeping this open while we slog through another wick check just to see if this thread is actually justified.

Meh, closing it as clock expired with questions about whether it needs a thread at all.