During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Aguste. Abstain on Mashiro.
Watts and Joker
I literally laid down everything about this in my EP. Every action and atrocity that all demons commit in the anime are directly ordered and encouraged by Zennon.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 16th 2020 at 6:57:43 PM
The Dragon
After reading the EP, I'll give a slight yes to Watts.
I know she doesn't count, but is her backstory enough to discredit Salem from this trope on the off chance she manages to be as heinous as Cinder or Adam?
Edited by TiMBer1566 on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:08:23 PM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Aguste. Reluctant no to Mashiro.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Watts, the Joker, and Auguste. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Mashiro
Alright so I’ve just finished watching this movie and I think that I found a candidate to discuss. The movie in question is called American Assassin.
What’s The Work?
American Assassin is a 2017 action thriller film whose premise starts with Mitch Rapp’s fiancé getting killed by a terrorist attack. This leads to Mitch Rapp vowing vengeance on all terrorists, starting with the ones who killed his fiancé. The CIA were impressed by Rapp’s skills and recruits him to a black-ops unit called Orion where their first mission is to stop this guy, The Ghost
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
The Ghost is an American mercenary who made his first appearance in Poland buying Plutonium from a group of arms dealers. After being given the plutonium, Ghost kills the arms dealers and the police officers who noticed him before making his escape.
When Ghost meets up with his contacts at a restaurant in Turkey to sell the plutonium, he notices Orion on his pursuit. To make his escape once again, Ghost would kill random civilians in the restaurant as well as Orion agent Victor.
Ghost would then meet up with his nuclear physicist in Rome and capture Orion agents Mitch and Annika when he learns that they are spying on him. However they are saved by Stan Hurley and the trio captures the nuclear physicist while Ghosts escapes once more.
Ghost laters kills Stan’s contact and Annika’s uncle and kidnaps Stan where he proceeds to torture him for abandoning him on a mission, first by peeling off Stan’s fingernails, then by electrocuting him, and they slicing off bits of skin from Stan’s body.
However, Stan was able to deduce that Ghost had no intention of giving the nuclear weapons to his Iranian contacts and was merely using them to have them build the weapon for him to use for his own purpose. Ghost responds to this by killing off all his Iranian contacts proving Stan to be right.
Ghost’s true plan was to use the nuclear weapon to destroy the U.S. Navy’s Sixth Fleet out at the ocean hoping to kill all of the thousands (if not more) of American’s in the fleet simply to spite Stan.
However, Mitch Rapp follows Ghost to a boat where the two proceed to fight. During the fight Ghost would constantly and sadistically mock Mitch about his failure to have saved his girlfriend. Luckily Mitch was able to come out on top, kill Ghost and foil his plans to use the nuclear weapon to destroy the navy fleet and kill everyone in it.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Now Ghost says to Stan Hurley that after Stan abandoned him terrorists captured him and tortured him, which Ghost shows the scars to Stan. However Stan, calls Ghost out on his excuse in that he had to abandon Ghost to save the rest of his men because Ghost refused to follow Stan’s orders which got them into that predicament in the first place and that Ghost was already a violent and psychopathic man long before the terrorists captured him.
All that torture did to Ghost to was direct his hatred to Stan for actions that Ghost had gotten himself into for not following Stan’s orders and all of the innocent people that Ghost had killed or intended to kill just to spite Stan, who by that had nothing to do with his predicament, and sadistically mocking Mitch about the death of his Love Interest destroys any sympathy for Ghost. Plus, we had past candidates who were tortured in the past (Koba, Killgrave, Griffith, etc.) yet still managed to count because their past don’t justify their current actions and I believe that to do be the case with Ghost as well.
Heinousness
Now the terrorists in the first scene of the film caused an attack that killed Mitch’s fiancee and the Iranians were planning to use Ghost’s nuclear bomb on Israel. However they don't really have much focus and aren’t given much characterization so I wouldn’t consider them.
That said not only does Ghost have more than enough characterization to be considered, but as the Big Bad he has a lot of screen time for him to commit his atrocities. In the film he has killed all of his allies off once they are no longer of use to him, causes a massacre murdered countless of innocent people in a restaurant, subjects Stan Hurley to a long and horrendous torture session, and intended to use a nuclear weapon to kill thousands of innocent people, if not more, all just to spite Stan. I’d say Ghost does more than enough to pass the heinous standard.
Final Verdict?
I will leave that decision for you guys to make.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 16th 2020 at 6:11:44 AM
Zernon.
Nagi and John Smith.
to Watts I guess.
Abstaining on Fanscription!Joker as that one seems to rely more on his canon crimes and doesn't really bring anything new or spectacular to the table.
Mashrio.
Ghost.
"The Juice is Loose."
Beast: I mean we have Fanfilm!Dee and Injustice 2 novelization!Brainiac up. And they had about the same amount of differences from their Canon counterparts. So I don't see a problem when this Joker going up.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 16th 2020 at 10:35:37 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Based on the EP, to Ghost.
Again, communication in PM on Fantasy Island is opened wide.
@Beast I concur with Bullman. Plus even then, his torture of Harley all by itself definitely puts him over, much like Dry Eye's attempt to rape Rosalind.
I still watch some of their stuff, but I also added in a SIGH after Channel Awesome. I don't take their history lightly.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:56:57 AM
Was gonna wait on this, but there's really not the need to:
- "What If Harley Quinn Was In Batman 89?": The Joker, real name Jack Napier, commits many of the same crimes his canon counterpart does, such as releasing Smilex on Gotham City, gassing the museum to be alone with Vicky Vale and then trying to spray Vicky with his acid too. Instead of his original brutalization of Alicia, he instead mutilates and psychologically tortures his lover, mob therapist Dr. Harleen Quinzel and turns her into Harley Quinn, who he has kill a hostage for him. Eventually wanting Vicky instead though, the Joker tries to murder Harley by pushing her from the balcony and reacts with joyful indifference later on when she confronts him about it.
And yes, I am going to draft it. Need the YT link?
Gentle Laborer
Watts and Ghost
- Killing Morph (2017): The depraved murderer known as Morph is a vicious Serial Killer on a crusade to "crush the world". Once a lonely sociopath who mastered the ancient power of Bilocation, Morph slaughtered ten people in broad daylight to continue the carnage from the safety of a cell, savagely beating the police chief and committing another massacre at a local bar. Obsessing over one of the survivors of his first killing spree, Madoka, Morph kills more victims in front of her and frames another patient for the murder of her counsellor. After his actions escalate to the double murder of Madoka's best friends, Morph butchers his own worshippers for daring to touch Madoka before trying to convince her into killing their leader.
Here it is with the YT link. I'll replace it in the drafts (or rather add it in with the other edits I just made) in a bit:
- "What If Harley Quinn Was In Batman 89?": The Joker, real name Jack Napier, commits many of the same crimes his canon counterpart does, such as releasing Smilex on Gotham City, gassing the museum to be alone with Vicky Vale, trying to spray Vicky with his acid and gassing the crowd at the parade too. Instead of his original brutalization of Alicia, he instead mutilates and psychologically tortures his lover, mob therapist Dr. Harleen Quinzel and turns her into Harley Quinn, who he has kill a hostage for him. Eventually wanting Vicky instead though, the Joker tries to murder Harley by pushing her from the balcony and reacts with joyful indifference later on when she confronts him about it.
- "What If Harley Quinn Was In Batman 89?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Very funny. Very true. Imagine his second ends up being an impersonation of Frank Costello. Haha.
Also implied this Joker still killed Bruce Wayne's parents too, but I'll leave that out though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:25:35 AM
You know, it's rather fitting that Brad Jones' first CM is him impersonating Jack Nicholson's first, considering how much they sound alike.
Moriarty, Bill, Zennon, Nagi, Smith, Watts, Joker, Sergey and Ghost
Mashiro
As for Gustav... I know Psycho Supporter usually ain't enough to disqualify, but the dude self-harms when he fails his Emperor.
Lizzid people!
Ghost, Watts
Edited by AustinDR on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:20:53 AM
Goku Black
Watts, Joker, Sergey and Ghost
Mashiro
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
"I know she doesn't count, but is her backstory enough to discredit Salem from this trope on the off chance she manages to be as heinous as Cinder or Adam?"
Heinousness was never an issue with Salem, everything in the show except maybe the things Adam did? She was responsible for all of it, the whole fall of beacon thing was her idea to begin with, and all the stuff the Grimm do are also on her. And little things like us seeing her watch as a war is fought to spread her and Ozmas rule in the flashback episode.
For her backstory...I'm of the crowd who dosent find it mitigating. But we still have to see how the show goes with her. Especially as even in the Fandom in general there are mixed thoughts on if her backstory makes Salem any less evil or not.
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:46:43 PM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, sure to Watts. And yeah, assuming her character page is correct, Salem's not even CLOSE to this trope.
As the one who got that Brainiac up, I'll give a yes to this Joker, as there seem to be enough differences from the original.
Auguste; abstain on Mashiro.
Ghost.
Edited by ACW on Feb 17th 2020 at 4:52:48 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Oh and also to Good old Wattsy.
I think he's the first RWBY CM who isn't also a HS.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Goku Black
Also third for his actor Christopher Sabat. He was also Gilles de raiss and Papa
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Nagi and Smith
Joker (again)
Sergey Auguste Taiki, but Mashiro for Alas, Poor Villain reasons
Ghost.
Watts I'll go , given the extra collateral damage he inflicts, both for his plans and seemingly for amusement; it'll be interesting to see what else we discover about him in later volumes. ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Indeed, he somehow avoids Hate Sink territory.
—
I'll do my last Discworld book EP this week, otherwise I can't think of anyone else from that series (possibly excluding adaptations) that fits the bill.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
to Duke Nagi and John Smith, Watts, Joker, Auguste and Ghost. to Mashiro.
The Draftsman of Doom
"The Juice is Loose."
Last night I forgot to vote on Ghost. Yes to him.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Well, I finished the Mai-Otome manga. So, here is my final Mai-Hime candidate, at least for now.
What's the work?
The Mai-Otome manga is very different from the anime. In it, Mashiro Blan De Windbloom is the protagonist instead of Arika. Mashiro is the Princess and future queen who must save the Kingdom from evil. Beautiful and sought out by all, Mashiro seems like the perfect girl...
...But he's a guy.
Yes, Mashiro is a man disguised as a woman. An ordinary boy who became the body double corn the assassinated princess, Mashiro must bond with Arika and the others while foiling the evil plot of Grand Duke Nagi Di Artai.
Or so it seems... but Nagi is actually a Disc-One Final Boss this time around. In addition, he is shown to love his sister in the sequel, as he asks the boy Mashiro to take care of her. The real masterminds?
Who are Sergey Auguste Taiki and the real Mashiro? What do they do?
Yeah, in the manga, Sergey and Mashiro go through some Adaptational Villainy. Their characters are so drastically different that I will refer to them as Auguste and True Mashiro for convenience.
Auguste is the Prime Minister of Windbloom. A military colonel as well, he began some military expansion- the result of this, according to Nina, is mass unemployment and general misery. Auguste's rule in general is shown to be oppressive.
As for True Mashiro, the supposedly assassinated princess was actually Faking the Dead this whole time. She seeks to Take Over the World.
So Auguste, at one point, adopted the boy Mashiro (henceforth calles Manshiro)- who is actually the Prince and brother of True Mashiro- and raised him as part of their plan. He also manipulated Nagi into helping. So, eventually, he reveals to Nagi that he was a puppet, and True Mashiro makes her appearance. Then, they get Mikoto, whom they have brainwashed and turned into a spy, to attack and try to kill the heroes. Nagi, in a shining moment of Adaptational Heroism, shields them, sacrificing himself to save them and dying. Auguste and True Mashiro, having just pulled a Make Way for the New Villains, go off to conquer the kingdom.
True Mashiro crowns herself Queen, ushering in a dictatorial rule where her soldiers run rampant, beating people and attempting to rape one of the heroines. The two then unleash the Dark Hime, evil versions of the Hime (in the manga continuity, it is heavily implied if not outright stated that Mai-Hime and Mai-Otome are related somehow), on the Kingdom, using them against the heroes. Arika sees Dark Mai's CHILD, Kagutsuchi, and realizes that the CHILD was the very same entity that burned down the village where Arika and Manshiro used to live, killing nearly everyone in the town. In the ensuing battle, Nina and Erstin wind up sacrificing themselves, and though both live (yes, Erstin is Spared by the Adaptation), they end up grievously injured.
Eventually, the heroes make it to Auguste and True Mashiro, who proceeds to trap Manshiro in a Lotus-Eater Machine, forcing him to relive the relentless bullying by his classmates, with Bully Brutality in full display. Then they force Arika and Nina to fight each other, demanding that one of them kill the other and become a servant. When Arika and Nina try to refuse, they sic Dark Mai on them. Eventually, Manshiro is able to break out and save Dark Mikoto and Dark Mai, whom the two brainwashed into serving as minions, letting them regain their old selves again.
Auguste, who was manipulating True Mashiro all along, has her bodyguard Fumi stab her, killing her. Auguste then proclaims his intent- unlike True Mashiro, who wanted to conquer the world, Auguste wants to destroy it, because he thinks it is filled with nothing but lies. When he is seemingly defeated, he stabs Manshiro, nearly killing him, before going One-Winged Angel and engulfing by Windbloom in darkness. Only thanks to The Power of Love is Manshiro able to kill him and end his plot.
Heinousness?
The real villains, set it for the continuity. Dictatorial oppression, burning down a village and killing all but a few people, getting Nagi killed, almost getting Nina and Erstin killed, trapping Manshiro in a brutal nightmare, trying to get Arika and Nina to kill each other... Auguste has slightly more; killing his partner Mashiro, attempted murder of Manshiro and trying to destroy the world, coming dangerously close to doing so. The villains in the sequel, Arashi and the Cosmo Beauties, never go beyond standard villainy.
Mitigating Qualities?
Auguste has none. He is evil, plain and simple.
Mashiro... is a little more complicated. For most of the story, she is a cruel monarch and such. But when Auguste betrays and kills her, she actually does have an Alas, Poor Villain moment... maybe. Here are her last words:
She then drops a locket containing a picture of her and her parents.
Now, this does seem to imply that she loves her family, which would disqualify her. Especially since she was apparently carrying that around. But her saying that she 'has only herself' makes me wonder if she really does love them and her brother, or still only cares for herself. Also, a panel in the sequel manga shows her whipping the masochistic Nagi in Heaven, possibly implying a Together in Death, but I do not know if this counts as affection.
Here is the chapter
in which Mashiro dies and says that, and the chapter
in the sequel where she appears briefly in Heaven. With both, just skip to near the bottom. Please read these to see the context and make an informed decision, if you have the time.
Verdict?
Auguste is an easy keep, I feel. Mashiro... much as I would like for her to qualify, she strikes me as a near-miss, and I would not be surprised if she is downvoted.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.