During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Rapist. Wow, an Ellison story with a happy ending (unless you're the Rapist).
the Rapist.
The Lord Of Walruses
the Rapist
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll toss a yes to Ogami, since we see his crimes and we DO see him, if only briefly (if I understood the EP correctly).
Apollo.
the LITERAL mind rapist. I think only the second CM from Ellison (third if you count Story!AM and Game!AM as 2).
Rapist. Reminds me of Doctor Destiny.
Edited by rosewood47 on Feb 10th 2020 at 6:08:35 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to the rapist.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
nameless rapist.
And yes, Ogami does appear. It is brief- a couple images of him in a storybook and a few frames in a manga flashback, smiling sadistically- but that is apparently considered sufficient.
Alright, so here is my fourth RPG Maker horror candidate. Warning, long one incoming.
Now, if you have seen enough of my posts, or visited my troper page, you would know that I love female CMs. Well, I think I can finally propose one.
What's the work?
Angels of Death is an RPG Maker horror game that was actually adapted into a manga and an anime. From the creator of Forest of Drizzling Rain comes a tale starring Rachel Gardner, a girl who, after witnessing a murder and going to counseling about it, wakes up in a strange tower. Each floor in the tower is staffed by a different killer, and Rachel must escape them all to earn freedom.
Along the way, she makes an unlikely ally in Zack, the B6 floor master. Rachel, feeling suicidal at the time, asks Zack to kill her. Zack, who has been branded a traitor and sentenced to death, agrees to a deal- if Rachel helps him escape, he will kill her. And thus starts an odd journey.
So, most of the characters have some sort of sympathetic quality. Even the Big Bad, Doctor Danny, loves his mom. There is one, however, who does not.
Who is Catherine "Cathy" Ward? What does she do?
Cathy is the B3 floor master and the second major Arc Villain. Known as the Condemner, she is a sadistic Knight Templar who is convinced that she is a holy woman punishing sinners, and so sentences those who make it to her floor to horrible punishments. When Ray and Zack first arrive, she tries to spring a gun trap on them. They survive, so she takes them onward. Her challenges are structured as a Sadistic Game Show, with her as the quirky host.
First, Cathy traps Zack in an electric chair and slowly begins shocking him to death, then challenges Rachel to find a way to shut off the chair and save him (she does). For their next challenge, she traps them in a room and slowly starts filling it with Deadly Gas, then makes them do what is essentially a room escape game, with the gas as a time limit. When Zack finally locates the key card needed to escape but accidentally breaks it, Cathy mocks them before deciding to leave them to die, filling the room with extra potent poison gas to add insult to injury. When they manage to escape anyway, she offers to spare them from her Deadly Game- all they have to do is agree to become her prisoners forever. Obviously, they refuse- however, we later see that other players did take her deal. From what we see, the former players in the cells have been kept in there so long, and treated so harshly, that they all look like zombies, and their bodies break easily. When Ray passes by there, and when she goes back there later, they cry and beg her for help.
Now, in a scene exclusive to the anime, Cathy makes Zack do a puzzle that is based off his traumatic childhood, the thing that turned him into a killer. She clearly takes great joy in digging up his old wounds and making him suffer PTSD flashbacks.
So, once that is over, she presents another challenge- Ray and Zack must inject two needles into each other. One is healthy, but the other has something bad. One person can inject both needles, but the door will not open until both needles are injected. Zack, having grown attached to Ray at this point, injects both needles into himself. Turns out the bad thing is some kind of drug that induces an almost uncontrollable urge to kill, and Ray has to run away from Zack. Finally, they make it to the last room of the floor, where Cathy gives Ray a gun and challenges her to fight Zack to the death. In the game, if Ray pulls the trigger, Cathy reveals that the gun is empty before shooting Ray and Zack. If Ray does not, then Zack turns his scythe on himself to save Ray.
Cathy, furious that she will never get the chance to punish Zack, decides that she will make Ray go though an extra painful death. Luckily, Ray had a second gun hidden in her handbag the whole time; she shoots Cathy, after which the not-actually-dead Zack slices and kills her, ending her reign of terror.
Later on, Rachel is forced to shoot Cathy’s captives in order to complete a challenge by another floor master. Cathy’s spirit appears to taunt her, showing no concern for her captives which she just murdered, then appears again in a witch trial that the Greater-Scope Villain, Reverend Gray, is holding for Rachel. In it, she accuses Ray of being a witch and basically refuses to take responsibility for her evil acts, ending with a request that Rachel be punished by drowning. She is never seen again.
Now, this is the extent of her actions in the game and anime. The manga, however, gives us her backstory. Basically, she was once the popular girl in her school, adored by all. She was also a major Alpha Bitch. One day, she befriended Lucy, a shy, bespectacled girl.
Anyway, her doctor parents are murdered by a vengeful family member of a patient. Or something like that. The important part is, even though Lucy is expecting her to be devastated, Cathy comes to the funeral and shows zero grief towards her parents. Instead, she manipulates Lucy into killing a rival Alpha Bitch by shoving her in front of an incoming train, then is implied to kill all the members of the rival’s Girl Posse.
In Episode 0, a prequel, Cathy has become the jailer of an actual prison, with Lucy as her right-hand woman. Cathy, from what we see, spends her time torturing the prisoners to the point that all of them are afraid of her. She and Doctor Danny are recruited by Gray to find killers for the Tower that he is building. So she does so, and every time Cathy finds a new killer, instead of expressing disgust at the acts of the killer, she only shows amusement, demonstrating how little she values other lives.
Cathy has made it a rule to never kill any of the prisoners, both to keep them alive for more torment and because she wants her first kill to be someone special to her. Eventually, she chooses Lucy herself, whom she has been abusing for pretty much the whole story. She ties Lucy up and prepares to execute her via chainsaw, while Lucy has been so utterly stockholmed and in Mad Love with Cathy at that point that she actually welcomes her death, happy that Cathy is the one to kill her.
Heinousness?
Not gonna lie- the standard is kinda high. Zack is a Serial Killer, so is Doctor Danny and Shin, Eddie has had a few kills, Gray is the man who built the damn tower and ran the operation to kidnap people, and such.
But what makes Cathy stand out? Well, Zack has standards, Eddie is Affably Evil and tries to give his victims pleasant deaths, Gray is pretty hands-off in general, and Shin loves his brother and bonds with Eddie. The closest equal in heinousness is Danny, as he kills his victims and scoops out their eyes, and he is also sadistic about it.
But Cathy? She goes out of her way to make her floor as painful as possible, using torture methods to drag out the deaths of her victims as long as she can. She also spares some of them- but this only serves to make her more evil because she spares them by sticking them in a dingy cell so she can torture them for as long as they live. She forces those who make it far enough to inject a dangerous drug in themselves to make them violent. In the anime, she takes pleasure in psychologically torturing Zack.
And the manga shows that she did this to who knows how many people back at the prison she used to work at. She abused Lucy and made her a puppet, teaching her to torture and kill others such as those schoolgirls, then killed her when she was no longer useful- and did it under the guise of 'love'. Since she was one of the recruiters, she is also indirectly responsible for bringing killers into the tower.
Overall, if we count not just the people she has killed, but the people she has tortured, as victims, then she actually has the highest victim count in the series. That is what makes her stand out.
To give you an idea, if she were a Criminal Minds villain/unsub, she would definitely pass the heinousness standard, since the number of people she has killed and/or tortured is in the double digits.
Mitigating Qualities?
She presents herself as being a holy lady who is just punishing sinners, but it is made clear that she is really just a self-righteous sadist.
I feel as though her backstory was specifically written to make her unsympathetic. When her own parents die, she shows no change in mood or personality. While Lucy believes this is because she is simply keeping her grief hidden, the way it is written appears to indicate that this is nothing more than Lucy’s rationalization. She supposedly killed Lucy because she wanted her first kill to be someone special to her, someone she loves. But her 'love' for Lucy? She was purely using Lucy as a tool and nothing more, and although she considered Lucy special enough to kill her, it was in more of a 'favorite toy' kind of way. Even if, on some twisted level, Cathy did care for Lucy, that actually makes it even worse, because she kills someone she loves precisely because she loves that person, akin to Junko killing Mukuro and Yasuke because she 'loved' them. (In fact, Cathy kind of is a Junko Expy.) Yes, Zack does make a promise to kill Ray, and they do grow to love each other, but a) It is ambiguous if he even keeps his promise or spares her, and b) Zack and Ray have a more-or-less healthy relationship based on trust, while Cathy and Lucy’s relationship is one of abuser (Cathy) and abused (Lucy).
Here are chapters 19, 20, and 21, which show her backstory, to illustrate my point. If you want to read Episode 0, it is on Amazon.
Furthermore, her backstory is only shown in the manga continuity, I believe. I am unsure if the manga is canon to the game and anime, which were made first, but her supposedly mitigating qualities never even appear there.
Verdict?
She is basically a female Mettaton with the personality of Junko Enoshima. Yes to Junko-lite.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 10th 2020 at 4:51:05 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cathy.
Self righteous sadist is self righteous.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 10th 2020 at 11:59:48 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Oh yeah, Cathy. I vaguely remember her being added to Villains Wiki's Pure Evil category long before the whole cleanup stuff was introduced (and back when I contributed heavily to Villains Wiki). I can see why now. Yes to her.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to Cathy
"The Juice is Loose."
Catharine.
the Rapist. To refer to what was said above about Ellison having happy endings, apparently he was a fan of the Good Endings of I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream game...I mean he did write those endings, so...
Self-Declared King of Everything
Hard to Cathy.
to Cathy
Yes to Jimmy Platt, Ogami, Apollo, the rapist, and Cathy.
No to God.
Wild Child
Cathy.
Gentle Laborer
Dunno... Pretty hard to decide when you have an Ax-Crazy Serial Killer who slaughters people For the Evulz as your Villain Protagonist.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason why Zack spared Rachel was her status as a Death Seeker, he doesn't want to kill a suicidal person because that's not "fun".
Ogami and Cathy
Sure there N and the only thing I'd change for "Satan" in Sabrina... I'd start it with "Lucifer Morningstar, Satan himself..." since they're now calling him by his fallen angel name more than his king of hell one.
Agreed with 43 there. It's revealed that 'Morningstar' is more of a title to denote the ruler of hell
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
~The Mad Cr0w: At first, that is why Zack spares Rachel, yes. But he did grow to care about her. Also, he implies at one point that he does not actually want to be a killer, but he is following a compulsion to (specifically, he tells Ray that, if he could hold back his urges, he would never have been in the Tower in the first place). Whereas Cathy embraces her wickedness while covering it under the thin veneer of justice. Also, Cathy is shown in the manga to have way more victims (at least in terms of how many people she has tortured).
Edited by MasterN on Feb 10th 2020 at 7:39:07 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Gentle Laborer
I see, thanks for clarifying.
Leaning
Goku Black
rapist and cathy
Second cm for Jamie Marchi after Junko Enoshima.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Given how similar their characters are, I wonder if this is an Actor Allusion...
