Von Karma is GUILTY!

Yes to God, Megatron, Abby's father, Vortex and Von Karma.

Abstain on Sakura and Seed Eater.

Anyway, I may have another monster from the Old Man Logan universe, but this one is Hawkeye's enemy, not Logan's. Another villain who played a key role in the downfall of the heroes:

Who is Baron Helmut Zemo? What has he done?

Baron Helmut Zemo is a long-time Avengers foe and founder of the Thunderbolts. However, Hawkeye was able to convince the Thunderbolts to become heroes and Zemo has held a grudge against Hawkeye ever since. When Red Skull enacts Sinister's plan to destroy the heroes, Zemo offers a crucial part of the plan, Zemo strong arms the Thunderbolts into siding with the villains over the heroes.

The Thunderbolts and Avengers go on a mission together, only to be attacked by supervillains. The Thunderbolts backstab the Avengers and aid the villains, resulting in the Avengers being brutally murdered, with Zemo in his Citizen V costume personally murdering Black Widow, the woman who Hawkeye loved. Zemo leaves Hawkeye alive though, believing he is worthless and not worth killing.

Decades later, Zemo is in charge of Red Skull's super-soldier program, running it from the Weapon X lab in Canada. We see one of his test subjects, a deformed man who can barely speak and begs for death, which Zemo's assistant Avalanche provides and they go to the next test subject (that was subject number 1344), so I think he has done that a lot.

Eventually, Hawkeye confronts Zemo at the Weapon X, after killing the rest of the Thunderbolts in revenge. However, Zemo has succeeded in recreating the super-soldier formula and giving it to a minion, making him Captain Hydra. Captain Hydra also kills several of Zemo's guards as a demonstrating of power, which I am pretty sure Zemo ordered having observed this from a window.

Hawkeye kills Captain Hydra and confronts Zemo, but Zemo is different from the past, Zemo has suffered several strokes and is now wheelchair-bound and only able to move his hands, using a keypad to type out words that are delivered through an electronic machine voice. Hawkeye briefly pities Zemo, but Zemo heaps scorn on Hawkeye, calling him a failure, saying he does not want his pity and that will not be allowed to leave after seeing his condition. Hawkeye changes his mind and kills the Baron.

Zemo was planning on killing all the scientists under his command after creating Captain Hydra and several doses of the super-soldier serum, so no one could duplicate his research.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

That is a tricky one, Old Man is a harsh world, where supervillains have taken over civil society and killed millions in their quest for power. Maestro is a rapist who tried to kill off humanity and Sinister was the one who developed the original plan to kill off the superheroes and turn the world into a nightmare.

However, Zemo played a key role in destroying the Avengers with his treachery and seemed to be up to no good in the future. We only see one of his lab experiments, but it does set a pattern for Zemo and human experimentation. Zemo is also a Bad Boss who killed his guards and tried to kill his own scientists.

Zemo's resources in the future are limited by the fact that the strokes have left in a state where he can only move his hands.

Zemo may be Red Skull's lackey, but he seems to have total authority over the Thunderbolts scheme and the Weapon X lab and ran those things to his designs.

Ironically Bullseye shows up in this mini-series as well and goes on a massive killing spree to get to Hawkeye, but he has 2 Pet the Dog moments that save him from being a Complete Monster.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Nah, Zemo lacks his usual redeeming qualities here, does not care that Hawkeye killed the other Thunderbolts and seemed to kill the Avengers out of spite for originally losing the Thunderbolts (Magneto calls out Zemo as needlessly petty in the past).

Most of the other Thunderbolts became somewhat decent people trying to survive in Red Skull's America, except for Moonstone who was still a petty villain who desired power, but not heinous enough to count.

Hawkeye may briefly pity Zemo for his weakened state, but Zemo's arrogance and insults quickly take that away.

Final Verdict?

He may count, if you think he is heinous enough.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2019 at 9:31:41 AM

to Musical Von Karma

I would gladly upvote von Karma if it weren't for the fact I worked on the musical and you're not allowed to vote on your own stuff XD;

Huh. Not at all a disreputable thing to have worked on, lalalei. Judging Karma as "ye guilty."

Yes to Zeno, though tentatively.

Edited by Scraggle on Nov 30th 2019 at 9:34:05 AM

Likewise, a yes to Zeno, to God, and to the killer story one. And nice, Lalei. How were you involved there? A happy yes to von Karma.

Wrote a couple songs. Some were cut but two were in, and one cut song got a verse or two in Anything to Win.

to Von Karma and Zemo (is this Helmut's first CM? I know Heinrich has at least two)

Saito, Sakura, Seed Eater, God, Father, Megatron, Vortex, Zemo and Manfred

De Salvo

Abstain on Plutonian

Heinrich is usually worse than his son, but this Helmut Zemo lacks the redeeming qualities other versions have.

Also no to the Boston Strangler.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2019 at 9:06:43 AM

Well, Heinrich's got an MB (though that incarnation also qualifies as a CM), so I guess it's only fitting that Helmut gets a CM.

to Zemo

Klavice this doesn't jive with the MB post you did on the same character... what's going on here?

Write-ups :

• Uchiha Heiress Remix: Starting out as a mere jerkass version of her canon character, Sakura Haruno becomes significantly worse. Receiving the Cursed Seal of Heaven, Sakura mind rapes Ino when she tries to mind control her, resulting in her victory in the preliminaries. Trained by Orochimaru and Danzo later on, Sakura slowly becomes more depraved as they encourage her darker instinct, gleefully brainwashing the entire village, taking part in the horrific high-level training the brainwashed civilians are put through (resulting in several deaths) and abandoning "some disposable" ROOT agents in part of a Batman Gambit. When ordered by Orochimaru to reach Oto with a blood sample, Sakura, angered by her former friend Ino's criticism of Danzo, gives her a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, a Breaking Lecture, rips off her arm, and leaves her to die from blood loss while taunting the village about it, thus painting in full awareness a target on her bodyguards, the Sound 3. When Satsuki fights her, Sakura barely remembers what she did to Ino, and shows no regret or remorse whatsoever. Despite being only 12 years old with little resources, Sakura became a shockingly dark villain for an otherwise light-hearted fanfic.
• My Father Was A Serial Killer (archive), by AustinDR : Abby's misanthropic and misgonystic father developed Ax-Crazy tendancies while working for his butcher uncle. He later became a reverend, husband and a father of three kids. Hiding Behind Religion his depravity, he killed several pregnant women by slicing their throat and gutting them, justifying it by claiming that these women were "harlots" who "poisoned the world with their perversity". He was also extremely abusive to both his wife and children who later on became worse, starving and beating up his wife and daughters for the slightest "offense", teaching his misogynistic worldview to his son while not showing him the slightest affection and giving forty lashes to his eldest daughter Abomination "Abby" when she calls him out on his abuse. Upon being arrested for his crimes, he shows no regret and kept justifying his acts. While calling his daughter Abomination, Abby's father ironically proved to be far more fitting of the term.
• In Heaven (archive) by AustinDR : God, in a desire to be worshipped, created angels, but it wasn't enough, so he created humanity. When a part of the angels, led by Satan, rebelled against him, God punished them by turning a third of them into his throne, while they were fully conscious and in eternal suffering. When greeting the deceased reverend, God revealed that he was actually all the deities humanity ever believed in, mocked him for his faith in him, and showed him his dead loved ones, whose souls were robbed of personality and free will alongside anyone who ever believed in God, and even some non-religious people, so that they could be God's perfect followers. God then turned the reverend into one of his many slaves.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Dec 1st 2019 at 9:03:15 PM

Well it's very simple! I thought his affable attitude was true as I was midway through the second game when I wrote that, and watched a few videos on the final trial. Now that I'm more well versed in the character I can say his Affable attitude was an act but since he doesn't go the Smug Snake route. i think he might be worth keeping for both tropes. Someone did say C Ms can count provided they aren't too vile and Vortex's goal, though selfish. I wouldn't say he's too vile as there's no sadism behind it, nor does he take any kind of glee in what he does. He's more or less The Stoic and he doesn't insult anyone like a Smug Snake. I'm infecisive when it comes to this character. I know he's got the brains to be a MB as well as the deeds to be a CM but I cannot decide which fits him better. As it is, I cannot ignore the fact he's one of the most heinous Ace Attorney villains. So it's really a tough call. Maybe I made a mistake when I proposed him for MB as I think he suits this better.

[Exhales] I have a new entry. Captain Matias Torres from Ace Combat 7: Skies Unknown.

What's the work?

Ace Combat 7: Skies Unknown is the latest game in the Ace Combat series (though chronologically it precedes two games whose conflicts are largely unrelated), focusing on the second Usean Continental War opposing the Osean Federation to the Kingdom of Erusea over alleged claims of territorial violation following Osea's building of a Space Elevator in Erusean territory. It's a conflict in which drones start replacing manned aircraft for obtaining air superiority, as well as one which borders on the theme of IFF reliability.

The trilogy of DLC missions in which Torres is the central focus takes place midway through the war and portrays him as a standalone threat, having gone rogue from Erusea with an impossibly powerful super-submarine known as the Alicorn.

Who is Torres?

Captain Torres is a highly decorated Erusean naval officer, being hailed as "The Hero Comberth Harbor" during the sinking of Aegir Fleet (otherwise known as the Invincible Fleet in Ace Combat 04: Shattered Skies, where you, aka Mobius One, gets to sink Torres' ship, the battleship Tanager) thanks to his excellent damage control saving the lives of most of his crew. He's also known for his legendary aim, what with nailing an enemy ship 30km away in the middle of a storm during the Usean Coup d'etat when he was still a gunnery officer.

Torres is often compared in mission briefings to Trigger (7's main protagonist and Player Character), given that the people under his command are believed to experience a higher survival rate than most units. However, that's where the similarities end, because the rest of his history paints a much darker side to him.

Torres once got put under house arrest for "disseminating dangerous ideas" while serving as a naval instructor some years after AC04, then was put in the military reserves. In 2016, he was appointed as the captain of the experimental super-submarine Alicorn (purchased by Erusea from Yuktobania as "scrap metal" in the years following Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War's events and disarmament process), and set out with his crew on a trial run, which took a turn for the worst as the submarine got stuck to the bottom of the sea for two years.

Something definitely warped Torres and his crew's minds during those two years at the bottom of the sea, as the captain would emerge with extremist tendencies, and his crew became fanatically loyal to him, whether it be the SACS suicide squadron or the Erusean sleeper agents. It would seem that accident completely evaporated what little sanity he had left.

As depicted in SP Missions 1 through 3 (taking place between missions 13 and 14 of the base game), Torres and his crew go rogue, ignoring Erusea's hails to scuttle the submarine and embarking on a grim crusade to kill a million lives just so they can save ten millions more and end the Lighthouse War with the threat of terror (a prospect that was explored in 5 with Hamilton contemplating to take the Belkan nukes for himself and terrify Osea and Yuktobania into ending the war).

What has he done?

Aside from being discharged once for "disseminating dangerous ideas", Torres is deeply convinced that his "Ten Million Relief Plan" will horrify both sides of the conflict into ending the war, never mind the fact that he acquires the means to do it with two tactical nuclear shells he can fire from the Alicorn's hidden rail cannon. This, on top of his Improbable Aiming Skills, makes him a dangerous threat as he sets sail towards Oured with the intent of killing a million innocent lives there.

During SP Mission 2 ("Anchorhead Raid"), he conducts an "artillery fire drill" with the intent of shooting down Trigger and Strider Squadron with his rail cannon, not giving a damn about the explosions happening over the city of Anchorhead as he cackles maniacally and orders his crew to use their imagination as if the exercise was the real thing.

During SP Mission 3 ("Ten Million Relief Plan" and the conclusion to the DLC saga), Torres feigns surrender, only to reveal that he never intended to stand down and unsubtly prepares the rail cannon to target the Osean capital of Oured. With Osean analyst David North outing him as nothing more than a mass murderer, Torres tries to counter with the very skewed logic that Trigger is trying to kill him and his crew of 300 insane people so they can save the million of innocent lives he's about to slaughter. Such a crazed train of thought is the definite sign that he's off the deep end and truly Beyond Redemption.

Heinous by the standards of the work?

Ace Combat as a series has its fair share of despicable villains, though most of them (with the exceptions of people like Diego Gaspar Navarro, who's a warmonger out to sell his experimental aircraft) are bonafide Visionary Villains who actually have a point in shaking Strangereal's system. Torres is a subversion from extremists like "A World With No Boundaries" in that his posturing of ending the war with terror is a mere cover for his desire to indulge himself in killing people. Did the constant maniacal laughter not tip you off?

Any Freudian Excuse redeeming qualities?

The valors that make him a reputable hero among his people are unfortunately used for evil.

His comparison to Trigger is portrayed negatively, as the squadrons loyal him are sent to their deaths without a second thought, some even as martyrs shouting "Salvation!". Indeed, it would seem that using his reputation as a dependable leader created some kind of disturbing cult within the crew of the Alicorn, who are all willing to die for his ideals.

The incredible feat of aiming from 30km away in the middle of a storm is reprised during the climax of SP03, where David North pushes his buttons concerning the elegance and beauty in said feat. Torres then reveals that aiming at a difficult target (in this case, Oured, 5,000km away and while the Alicorn is starting to have trouble with the elevation angle) is the true beauty of it all; in other words, Torres has a twisted case of thrill-seeking, and does not care for the senseless mass murdering he's about to commit.

While the Alicorn's crew emerged from their two years under the sea more hardened than ever, the isolation seemingly turned the already unstable Torres into a psychotic and insane madman commanding an equally crazy cult-like crew.

Conclusion?

With the intent to seemingly ending the war with a horrifying act barely concealing a twisted desire for murder and beauty in destruction, Torres cements himself as a solid keeper.

It says something when lead developer Kazutoki Kono immediately labels him in an interview as the most evil character in the Ace Combat series.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Dec 1st 2019 at 3:45:33 PM

Megatron's writeup:

Transformers: Devastation: Megatron is a ruthless leader of Decepticons, who waged war against the Autobots for millions of years, leading to his own homeworld Cybertron becoming uninhabitable. Constantly trying to take over Earth, Megatron soon discovered an Autobot ship Proudstar, which was design to cyberform uninhabited planets and started to cyberform New York City. Taking over that ship, Megatron creates a plan to use its Ferrotax is supercomputer to cyberform entire Earth, killing all organic life on it, which he openly considers inferior. Repedeatly thwarting Autobots attempt at stopping the cyberformation process, including launching unstable core of the ship outside of New York, which could have caused an extinction-level explosion, Megatron shoot Ferrotax into space, to keep Autobots from getting it. When Optimus managed to reach it, Megatron battles him, openly announcing his intention of creating the new Cybertron and retaking the galaxy in a bloody conquest.

Megatron, Sinister Minister, Manfred.

I'll lean yes on Zemo, as his niche seems unique enough. Would Skull himself count, since he's behind the program Zemo's running?

Torres seems like a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist, so I'll lean yes.

Abstain on Klavice's as per 43's comment.

to Megatron, Abby's dad, Von Karma, Zemo and Torres. Abstain on Vortex.

I'd actually be up for a revote on the MB thread before we decide whether or not he counts here. If he's too heinous, I think I'll just cut him from both tropes and leave it as is.

Karma, Zemo and Torres

Abstain on Vortex

Yes to Von Karma, Zemo, and Torres.

Switching to abstain on Hart Vortex; I was also a bit suspicious, but I didn't say anything since I couldn't find the original EP.

Megatron, Abby's dad, Von Karma, Zemo and Torres

Yes to Von Karma, Zemo and Torres.

Von Karma, Zemo, and Torres.