This is the thread we use to talk things over with people who have received a suspension notice. A lot of the time the notice goes out just so we can explain how seriously we take certain things, not because we want the person to feel bad and go away.
If you're suspended, give What to Do If You Are Suspended a read, then post here to begin your appeal. We try to respond to appeals in order via batch posts every few days. If a moderator has responded to your appeal, you will receive a notification in your private messages, even if you're suspended from PMs.
The Forum Rules
apply here.
Don'ts
- Don't be rude. Rule 1 applies here, too.
- Don't try to negotiate your suspension outside of this thread, such as by sending Private Messages to moderators or posting elsewhere. Such activity may be thumped or otherwise removed, and may warrant an additional suspension block if it keeps happening. All communications have to take place within this thread.
- Don't respond to other suspended users. This is a place for you to discuss your suspension, not others'.
- Don't post multiple times about your appeal if it hasn't been a few days since your last reply from us, since it makes it more difficult to compose responses. If you've posted, we're likely looking at it, and kindly request you to be more patient.
- Don't make another account to try and get around your suspension. This is called ban evasion and will get you bounced. (Again, read What to Do If You Are Suspended if you don't know what these words mean.)
Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 15th 2023 at 11:35:01 AM
@Synchroncity I should've asked and discussed before adding a certain tropes or reediting a page. I should've discussed it and researched it first.
(she/her)
The second one should have its' content merged into the first line and not be a bullet point.
The third example should also have the content in one paragraph, rather than just one line for the main example and then everything else being in a bullet point.
Correct on all three.
Not quite. While they are from two different works, we can't use third level bullets because Literature.Sherlock Holmes and Series.Sherlock only have one example each. You can't use a third level bullet if there isn't a second level bullet preceding it.
So, the example should look like this:
- Sherlock Holmes:
- Sherlock Holmes: Holmes declined a knighthood after a Noodle Incident, mentioned in "The Adventure of the Three Garridebs".
- Sherlock: Sherlock remarks that the government "threatened me with a knighthood. Again." after he solves a serial murder case.
I have one last example from Knight Fever for you to fix:
- The Brigadier from Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures was knighted over the course of the Big Finish audios. This was canonised in New Doctor Who's fourth TV series, so he became Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart.
- The Doctor and Rose get accoladed by Victoria as "Sir Doctor of TARDIS" and "Dame Rose of the Powell Estate" in "Tooth and Claw". Then they are 'invited' to leave the country. The late owner of Torchwood House in that episode was Sir Robert MacLeish, whose father had conspired with Prince Albert to fight the werewolf. Whether he had himself been knighted at some point or merely inherited a baronetcy is unclear..
- The style "Sir Doctor of TARDIS" is anomalous; a knighthood doesn't come with a change of name or a territorial title. A mediæval knight might be known as Sir Godfrey of Bouillon, but "of Bouillon" was his surname irrespective of his knighthood. Now, a knight who is also a Scottish laird (see above) might be Sir Fullname of Estate, so perhaps the queen meant to recognize the TARDIS as a qualifying estate, or she may have thought of him as having the full name "Doctor of TARDIS" and was only adding the "Sir" to it. (The same would apply to Dame Rose, except that in 1879 the title "Dame" was only used by baronetesses; it was adopted for female knights when the DBE was introduced in 1917. It's entirely possible the Queen misunderstood the nature of Rose's "estate".)
- Ian Chesterton is knighted Sir Ian of Jaffa in The Crusade.
- The Doctor and Rose get accoladed by Victoria as "Sir Doctor of TARDIS" and "Dame Rose of the Powell Estate" in "Tooth and Claw". Then they are 'invited' to leave the country. The late owner of Torchwood House in that episode was Sir Robert MacLeish, whose father had conspired with Prince Albert to fight the werewolf. Whether he had himself been knighted at some point or merely inherited a baronetcy is unclear..
Edited by MacronNotes on May 18th 2022 at 2:31:29 PM
Macron's notes
'Sup?
If another situation arises, I’ll PM the other person or Ask The Tropers to discussion the edit.
¿?¡!
Using the Endgame series example:
- Fake Russian: Arkady. Shawn Doyle is Canadian.
- And Peter Wingfield, who plays Arkady's old friend Oleg, is Welsh.
Change to:
- Fake Russian:
- Arkady. Shawn Doyle is Canadian.
- Peter Wingfield, who plays Arkady's old friend Oleg, is Welsh.
- Serious Business: Quick, how may chess grandmasters can you name? Well, everyone who meets Balagan seems to know his career, and details of his matches.
- Another grandmaster who visits the Huxley arrives with an entourage, including a bouncer.
- Also, they bring up that Arkady wasn't a World Champion but THE World Champion as if there were no others of note.
- The intro to the show has a short clip of Arkady standing up after what one assumes to be a World Championship match to what looks and sounds to be a stadium audience.
- Sam even calls a match between Arkady and another grandmaster, the greatest sports match up in the world. To be fair, Sam is a chess fan but that's still pretty big hyperbole to toss around.
Change to:
- Serious Business:
- Quick, how may chess grandmasters can you name? Well, everyone who meets Balagan seems to know his career, and details of his matches.
- Another grandmaster who visits the Huxley arrives with an entourage, including a bouncer.
- Also, they bring up that Arkady wasn't a World Champion but the World Champion as if there were no others of note.
- The intro to the show has a short clip of Arkady standing up after what one assumes to be a World Championship match to what looks and sounds to be a stadium audience.
- Sam even calls a match between Arkady and another grandmaster, the greatest sports match up in the world. To be fair, Sam is a chess fan but that's still pretty big hyperbole to toss around.
- Wide Eyed Idealist: Samuel, to the amusement of everyone else.
- "Can we cryogenically freeze him so he stays like this forever?"
Change to:
- Wide-Eyed Idealist: Samuel to the amusement of everyone else.
Balagan: Can we cryogenically freeze him so he stays like this forever?
EDIT: I have not actually seen the show so assuming it was Balagan making that quote in the last entry. If not him, then would correct to whoever was saying the line about Samuel rather than leaving just the quote as a bullet point.
I hope this meets the criteria, thank you for pointing out mistakes before.
Edited by MikeW on May 14th 2022 at 8:55:38 AM
~MacronNotes (there really should be a reply button for these posts)
- Doctor Who:
- The Brigadier was knighted over the course of the Big Finish audios. This was canonized in the 2005 revival's fourth series, so he became Brigadier Sir Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart.
- The Doctor and Rose get accoladed by Victoria as "Sir Doctor of TARDIS" and "Dame Rose of the Powell Estate" in "Tooth and Claw". Then they are 'invited' to leave the country. The late owner of Torchwood House in that episode was Sir Robert MacLeish, whose father had conspired with Prince Albert to fight the werewolf. Whether he had himself been knighted at some point or merely inherited a baronetcy is unclear. note
- Ian Chesterton is knighted Sir Ian of Jaffa in The Crusade.
Edited by themisterfree on May 14th 2022 at 8:21:44 AM
Guilty as charged. I deleted the entries because I felt that they blatantly went against the rule of only adding things that had been explicitly confirmed pre-premiere (the film had not been released at the time). Because this seemed simple enough to me, I did not consult the cleanup thread and indeed I did not know that I was required to do so. Thank you for letting me know and for providing a link to it. I have now seen the thread and seen that the issue had been raised there.
The other troper, Cutting Edge G, eventually decided to leave the entries as comments in the editing markup with the intention of adding them to the page after the film had premiered. I considered this an acceptable resolution to the matter. However, I shall be sure to seek consensus in future to ensure that this doesn’t happen again.
Thanks again.
~crazysamaritan
From what I'm reading (and still trying my best to understand), the entry has to be reworded to where there's no word cruft, the response has to be added to the "Ellesmere Island" example instead of being a separate bullet point, or all of the examples have be put on one line, instead of separate bullet points (I was told doing them in list format is incorrect). Also, it has to be reworded like an example and not a discussion.
Synchronicity: Okay, okay, I get it now. I still wish to launch "How The Mighty Have Perished" because I think it's ready. However, I will give it some time and check first before announcing it. You know, see if everyone thinks it's ready.
Edited by RockRaider on May 14th 2022 at 7:16:17 AM
The Digital
~Synchronicity.
My new examples, I made sure to remove the PCE issue.
- Adaptational Angst Upgrade: He suffered an alternate version of "No Suck Luck''note , making him board the Train. In canon, he was merely annoyed instead of traumatized by the events from the episode in question.
- Missing Child: He is disappeared for six months, Aimee first read about him on a forum about the Infinity Train.
@Synchronicity I'm sorry, I thought you had to name reasons for re-adding an entry in the edit-reasons. I've seen other people do it that way a lot, so I thought that was how it worked. I'll make sure not to do it again and use discussion boards and P Ms instead.
@Synchronicity ~ Following up my previous claim, I guess I need to know how long I need to wait before I can either grab a trope that hasn't been edited in a decade (to my knowledge), and after doing that, how long I should wait to announce that I should launch it.
~Sergeant Bane — Considered asking you to expand these here but you already identified what was missing, so it would just come down to writing.
Is there anything else you need clarification on our Zero-Context Example policy. This is your chance; we won't be as forgiving if you are nicked a second time.
~Spuki Kitty — The PM's you get are just automated messages telling you someone has tagged you in a forum post. They are not an invitation to reply via PM.
In the future, please just put your answers in a new post, it saves everyone the hassle of going to dig it up. The post for reference
- Persona:
- In the first Persona, there's an incredibly small chance one may encounter Alice in dungeons, who'll usually run away instead of using any magic. If defeated, she'll drop a Pagan Idol, which is used to fuse Beelzebub.
- Gold-plated enemies such as the "Wealth Hand" and "Treasure Hand" pop up at certain intervals in Persona 3. They always get first strike, run away at the drop of a hat, are immune to all magic and have impossibly high dodge abilities and defense. The only way to kill them is to use a physical attack they're weak against — they switch weaknesses every round and analyze never works on them. They need to be killed for completing Elizabeth's requests.
- In the Updated Re-release Persona 3: FES, the Hands now occasionally drop "empty" weapons, which are used in the new item forging system. Unfortunately, one has to find them before entering the battle by sneaking up on them. Failure to do so will result in the creature running away from you as fast as you run after it. If you manage to corner it? It disappears.
- In FES, they also did away with immunities. They have an unfortunate tendency to run away at the slightest provocation. Once one manages to kill one, it drops a Treasure Coin. If one happens to see a gold shadow upon entering a dungeon floor, assume that the Reaper is near. If there is two, Death is standing right behind you. After beating a Hand one has five seconds to reach an access point or the stairs if one is to keep that reward.
This better fits our Example Indentation in Trope Lists policy because we don't have any dangling second- or third-level bullets, but it's not quite perfect. You might find two of those bullet points are for the same work (Persona 3: FES), three if you consider that FES is a version of Persona 3. What does our policy say to do in that case?
~Trending Toon 1 —
Let's see. Can you fix this Zero-Context Example you added to Recap.Phineas And Ferb Rollercoaster The Musical?
- Dreamworks Face: Phineas has this expression just before the "Rollercoaster" song begins.
And these incorrectly-indented examples I found on Manga.Silver Diamond? (Ignore other issues with context.)
- All-Loving Hero: Rakan is really, really nice. And sweet, kind, helpful and forgiving. And everybody loves him because of it (except the villains). Even the animals.
- Eventually this starts to spread throughout his whole group, leaving most villagers wondering how feared criminals can be so pleasant.
- Evil Twin / Criminal Doppelgänger: It's not yet clear which of these is in play, but Rakan looks exactly like the Ayame prince.
- Five-Man Band:
- The Hero: Chigusa, interestingly enough.
- The Lancer: Narushige, when he's not being a "bossy mother-in-law," as Chigusa calls him.
- The Smart Guy: Kou, usually when the others are trying to figure out what Rakan means when he uses slang or pop culture references. Actually, all of the main cast seem to take turns as this one, depending on the situation.
- The Big Guy: Touji, although has some elements of Sixth Ranger.
- The Chick: A male - and quite useful- version in the form of Rakan.
Post your revisions here.
~Mike W — Correct. You seem to understand that unpaired second- or third-level bullets are no bueno.
But that's not the only type of Example Indentation in Trope Lists error present on that work page (or around the wiki). What's wrong with this example from the page?
- Berserk Button/Heroic BSoD: Rosemary is this for Arkady.
~themisterfree — It seems you have a good grasp of our indentation policy now, so you are free to go. When in doubt, Ask The Tropers.
~Maxiboy 136 — The important step in avoiding an Edit War is to get consensus. The Unreleased Work Page cleanup is one place to get input for that specific conflict. According to Edit War, where else can you go?
Edited by Synchronicity on May 15th 2022 at 3:58:51 AM
Moral Support Expert
I think I'm good to go! I can’t promise I won't make any mistakes I’m the future, but I can promise I’ll try to fix any I do make.
Hi. So, why was I suspended?
@Synchronicity:
Berserk Button/Heroic BSoD: Rosemary is this for Arkady.
The fact it combines two tropes when Berserk Button will suffice. Heroic BSoD would be more describing a specific moment Arkady feels broken while Rosemary is clearly his Berserk Button.
Thanks again for pointing these out and I apologize if it seemed I was ignoring the earlier notifications about it, I wasn't sure if up to me then to correct or not. Thank you and will be far more careful if indenting things in the future (if not just try to avoid it).
~Minni 128 —
The Literature.Deception Point example, for everyone to see:
- Dan Browned: Obviously:
- The novel mentions special "Improvised munitions"- weapons that are capable of firing water at sufficient speed to shatter bones or turn sand or ice into bullets. In reality, "Improvised Munitions" in military jargon means something else entirely, and of those possibilities mentioned, only the first one is remotely feasible: turning sand into glass bullets would require a power source too big to conveniently carry and ice bullets were shown to be ineffective by Mythbusters.
- Director Pickering addresses Rachel as "Agent Sexton". Intelligence analysts are not law enforcement officers and the NRO does not have clandestine field operatives.
- NASA sets up a huge camp in Ellesmere Island and does all its business unhindered. Ellesmere Island is part of Canada, who would presumably also want to take part in this.
- It gets worse when you consider Canada has a military base there... and said military base is specifically a signals intelligence intercept facility that is jointly run with CSEC (Canada's equivalent of the NSA) that would have detected strange radio transmissions like the one that led NASA to the meteorite
- It gets worse when you consider Canada has a military base
- Japan's Seven Gods of Good Fortune (Shichi-fukujin) are misidentified as "Shichigosan'', which is pretty hilarious.
You said:
And this is right. Regarding Word Cruft, words like "Obviously" don't add anything and can even read like opinions, so we discourage them. The third-level bullet point containing the Canadian military base shouldn't be a lonely third-level bullet, as our Example Indentation in Trope Lists policy spells out:
In this case, since the previous bullet already talks about Canada, the comment about the military base would be better incorporated into it.
However:
I don't know who told you that doing it in list format is incorrect, but that's not right. Some indentations are more appropriate for list format, while others are more appropriate in one line. It depends entirely on the example and how it's written. In this case, the Dan Browned example lists several different subjects ("improvised munitions", "Agent Sexton", "Ellesmere Island", and "Shichi-fukujin") so it is better to list them on separate points.
Now, continue to refer to Example Indentation in Trope Lists as that's not the only error on that page. What's wrong with these? Can you fix them?
- Exit, Pursued by a Bear / Just Desserts: Both Delta-Two and Delta-Three wind up being eaten by sharks near the end.
- Meaningful Name: Senator Sexton and his daughter Rachel. The former is a corrupt politician who likes to have his way with his hot secretary, the latter, well, is just sexy. Obviously.
- What other famous chess master Lawrence tries to make thing better but ended up screwing up big time and killed a bunch of innocent people? Hm...
- Named After Someone Famous: William Pickering is named after William Hayward Pickering, past director of Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
~Rock Raider —
Up for Grabs has the answer to this, but we'll save you the click. You don't need to wait to grab a draft that is UFG.
There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this, but if there were, it would definitely not be "right after I grab it". Many abandoned drafts, especially older ones made before our updated TLP Guidelines, have issues with formatting, context, and other run-of-the-mill problems, and you should not announce a launch until you are sure all the examples are well-formatted and have enough context.
Now, only having formatting issues is the best case scenario. If there are potential issues with scope or definition, then that's not something that can be ironed out with a 24 hour launch notice. It is best to wait a few days at the very least (I would personally go 1-2 weeks) to ensure that nobody has any issues with the base definition or scope of the trope before even announcing a launch.
You also have to listen to your commenters. If you announce a launch and a couple of people raise objections, listen to them, postpone the launch, and hash out the issue. You don't want to put out a draft that will promptly be sent to TRS in a year or so.
Again, not every draft is the same. There are those that might honestly be good to go with a little bit of wiki magic, and others that need more thorough discussion. But your problem is you keep assuming everything you adopt falls under the former category and don't wait to ensure that it doesn't fall under the latter category. Do you see why that's a problem?
~Tropers/Braz —
Your Adaptational Angst Upgrade writeup is looking much better. It explains the differences in his canon and fic emotional states.
But your Missing Child is still a Partial-Context Example. Do you get why?
~Justmenoworries — No. You should never try to hold a debate via edit reasons, let alone re-add examples. Edit Reasons and Why You Should Use Them and Edit War tell you why this is a bad idea.
Besides discussion boards and PM's, what else can you do to discuss the example instead of re-adding and being insistent in your edit reason?
~Sergeant Bane — You're free to go.
~Dakari King Mykan — To recap:
Your suspensions (including PM) have been lifted. Be very careful about your attitude while editing.
~punkcrow — We are discussing your case internally.
~Mike W
Yes, only one trope per bullet. Any more than that is trying too hard.
You should try to correct them and learn from the notifier. If someone else has already gotten to it before you, no harm no foul.
We have one more indentation error for you to fix, from Film.Judgment In Berlin. How would you rewrite this?
- Courtroom Antics: The elder defence attorney Bernard Hellring (†Jan 4, 1991) was (in)famous for them.
- At one point, he recites from Alice in Wonderland to underscore just how unlawful the notion of not having a jury is. (Stern later notes in his book that is is indeed a fitting allegory for the sheer strangeness of the trial.)
- Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness: Hellring's brand of courtroom speaking hailed "from an age when people streamed into the courtrooms like into theatres", to the point Stern practically orders him to stay succinct.
~faunas — Multiple problems for the price of one edit:
- You committed an Edit War by re-adding an entry you wrote to Recap.The Simpsons S 4 E 14 Brother From The Same Planet after it was deleted.
- Said thing you died on a hill over has its own problems:
- You tried to treat a Useful Notes page as a trope, violating What Goes Where on the Wiki. If you go to the main Useful Notes page, it tells you:
Useful Notes articles are not tropes and are not to be included in a work's trope list. Similarly, tropes are not to be used to describe the subject of a Useful Notes article directly.
- Even if it was a trope, it has absolutely no context. It just plops down a noun and doesn't say how it relates to the link.
- You tried to treat a Useful Notes page as a trope, violating What Goes Where on the Wiki. If you go to the main Useful Notes page, it tells you:
So, this example you re-added was wrong on multiple levels and should have stayed off the page. But in the future, what can you do if someone wrongly deletes an example you added instead of Edit Warring? (The answers are on that page.)
@Synchronicity
Back when I proposed what became that Useful Notes page via TLP, I had envisioned it as a trope. That's why I see it as something of a trope and put it as a trope, not just there but in other pages. I think only in that page was it taken down. And I believe TV Tropes needs a trope for 600 numbers, especially when it's a plot-important point, such as in the Simpsons episode.
@Synchronicity
- Courtroom Antics: The elder defence attorney Bernard Hellring (†Jan 4, 1991) was (in)famous for them.
- At one point, he recites from Alice in Wonderland to underscore just how unlawful the notion of not having a jury is. (Stern later notes in his book that is is indeed a fitting allegory for the sheer strangeness of the trial.)
- Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness: Hellring's brand of courtroom speaking hailed "from an age when people streamed into the courtrooms like into theatres", to the point Stern practically orders him to stay succinct.
- At one point, he recites from Alice in Wonderland to underscore just how unlawful the notion of not having a jury is. (Stern later notes in his book that is is indeed a fitting allegory for the sheer strangeness of the trial.)
Change to:
- Courtroom Antics: The elder defence attorney Bernard Hellring was (in)famous for them. At one point, he recites from Alice in Wonderland to underscore just how unlawful the notion of not having a jury is. [[note: Stern later notes in his book that it is indeed a fitting allegory for the sheer strangeness of the trial.[[/note]]
- Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness: Hellring's brand of courtroom speaking hailed "from an age when people streamed into the courtrooms like into theatres", to the point Stern practically orders him to stay succinct.
This should be a separate bullet point, not a secondary one.
Edited by MikeW on May 15th 2022 at 2:30:10 AM
The Digital
~Synchronicity.
My new example, this is PCE?
- Missing Child: He is a 11 Year old boy who is disappeared for six months, Aimee first read about him on a forum about the Infinity Train.
~faunas — It doesn't matter how you originally envisioned it, it isn't a trope. By listing it like one you are breaking the rules, it's just that you weren't reported til now.
~Mike W — Correct. I would maybe only remove the "infamous for this" as Word Cruft. Do you have any further questions about the Example Indentation in Trope Lists policy?
~Braz — Yes, your original amendment was missing context for "child". This does make us worry that you can't consistently identify PCE in your own writing. Is there something that is not clear?
@Synchronicity
I do not at this time, I am double-checking the listing again to make sure but believe I know and can correct any mistakes I make with it and avoid others. Thank you very much for clarifying it for me and I apologize again for seeming to ignore notifications about it in the past. Thank you.
A very long time ago, maybe 6 or 7 or more years ago I did some very VERY stupid things on this site and got banned for it.
It was because I was attempting to skirt around my initial suspension, and my stupid excuse was "I didn't know it was wrong"
I can't even begin to say how stupid I was, or how sorry I am for what I did.
Since then, I have learned a lot. Not just morally, but a lot of (obvious) things woke me up to reality.
I know I can't just simply apologize and everything will become all better. But I want to make amends and hope that I am since forgiven.
And I assure you that if my ban is ever lifted that I will NEVER do something so beyond moronic ever again. Thank you for reading :)
(she/her)
~The Sinful - Regardless of whether it was an accident or not, you still edit warred. I know it's not possible to remember every single edit you ever did to a page but please make sure to check the page history thoroughly next time.
Also, as a reminder, be sure to utilize PMs, Ask The Tropers, or the forums if you want to contest any edits you disagree with. If you get suspended again for edit warring, you might not get a forth chance to edit the wiki. Is that clear?
~Dezz Marie 95 - You need to be a little more specific than that. Read through Administrivia.Edit War again and tell us (your own words) all of the things you can do to avoid an edit war.
~K Oman - Alright, I'll release your suspension.
Macron's notes
@Synchroncity
I went back to my previous posted with the quoted Persona game passage and edited both post and passage so it's more concise and corrected the issue with the excessive bulleting. and tone. It now looks more "professional" for a lack of a better word.
I hope it helps.
I also am not using the PM when discussing this stuff. I keep getting messages about this in my inbox.
I don't want to break the rules. I am discussing this on the Forum, here. Thank you.
How did I do? I hope it's okay.