Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Sensei and Sandman
happy to Jadus (for second most powerfull guy in Sith Empire, trying to kill thousands is pretty small potatoes and it sounds like negative effects of how Empire under him would function for both itself and galaxy aren’t delved into enought to be too despicable).
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
To Sandman, Sensei, and Jadus
Goku Black
sensei, Sandman and Darth Jadus
Sandman & Jadus
Sensei and Jadus.
Yes to Jadus.
So it's been two weeks since the end of Star Trek Strange New Worlds season 2 and I have a character I want to discuss:
So Dr. Joseph M'Benga is the chief medical of the Enterprise and like most Star Trek doctors, he is kindly and empathic person. But he has a few dark secrets, he served during the Klingon Federation war, was willing to let one mortally injured man die so he can save several injured people without hesitation, and was willing to attempt to assassinate a Klingon General who was committing war crimes and killed all of his associates. He also made a drug that makes one immune to pain, but eventually burns out one's body during the war. During peace times, the Klingon General attempts to make himself into a diplomat and keeps on pestering M'Benga to publically forgive him. M'Benga and the Klingon General get into a fight and M'Benga kills him and states he doesn't regret killing him.
M'Benga also used this drug in the present and tortured a Klingon criminal, but that criminal was involved in a scheme to restart the Klingon Federation war.
What do you think of Dr. M'Benga?
Edited by Overlord on Aug 24th 2023 at 7:11:11 AM
Write-up here:
- We Bare Bears:
- Ari Curd
- "Christmas Movies": Harry is a thief planning to steal the baby bears' video store by disguising as Santa Claus and asking for movie tapes he claims he'll give to kids around the world. When his facade is dropped, Harry chases the bears for the door keys and traps them after fooling them with a cardboard cutout. After being talked by the bears about what Christmas is about and reminiscing his childhood, Harry realizes the wrong of his actions and is given by the bears a role as a Mall Santa for the store.
Showtime!
to Darth Jadus and the Sensei
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Prime Megatron, it's been a while but I've always found him way too cruel for this
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Can we get a more in-depth EP?
to Jadus and M'Benga (an EP isn't required; it's only a suggestion)
Any who I've got a candidate from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II so let us talk about it.
What’s The Work?
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II is the 19th installment of the Call of Duty series as well as the 2nd installment of the rebooted Modern Warfare series. The game follows Task Force 141 and the Mexican Special Forces unit, Los Vaqueros, where they attempt to track down terrorist Hassan Zyani, who is in possession of American-made ballistic missiles. However Hassan isn’t the candidate I’ll be discussing but one of his allies Valeria Garza.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Valeria Garza was part of the Mexican Special Forces who was actually an enforcer working for the La Arana Cartel until she decided to take power for herself when Alejandro Vargas' Los Vaqueros decided to go arrest the son of La Arana where she escorted the son to the mountains to execute, creating a power vacuum where she formed the Las Almas Cartel while creating the myth that someone call "El Sin Nombre” is the leader so no one would ever know she’s the true leader whose merely pretending to be The Dragon.
Valeria would rule over the city of Las Almas through love and fear by using her cartel to build as schools, hospitals and roads earning the people’s support, while also officers in the Mexican Army and police force to recruiting ex-soldiers as enforcers, and execute those who she can’t corrupt while displaying their corpses on the street for those who would dare defy her.
Valeria and her cartel would eventually help terrorist organizations, such as Al-Qatala, with their war against the United States and other Western Powers knowing that by doing so her enemies would be too focus on the War on Terror that they won’t pay attention to the war on drug and stop her, leading to her decision to make a deal with Hassan Zyani to smuggle him and the ballistic missile he stole to the United States with Las Almas personally escorting Hassan to the Mexico-United States board, eventually hiding him in one of Valeria’s buildings.
However two of Valeria’s compounds were raided and Hassan was found and captured by Task Force 141 and Los Vaqueros though they were forced to let Hassan go, while Valeria would gather her lieutenants and torture them for information regarding her raided compounds before killing them when they didn’t provide her with any useful information eventually killing her remaining lieutenant, Nunez, when John “Soap” MacTavish tells her what she wanted: that Los Vaqueros and the Shadow Company raided her compounds in for the missiles she was smuggling.
Valeria would then go to her office on the pretense of seeing “El Sin Nombre” but in truth, it’s to contact Hassan and assure him that the shipments will go accordingly. Valeria would then be alerted that enemies are infiltrating her base where she tries to make her escape only to be surrounded by the Shadow Company where she is then arrested.
She would then be interrogated about the whereabouts of Hassan and the missiles where she explains her reasons behind her actions before offering to tell her captors where Hassan and the missiles were located in exchange for her freedom and that they all leave Las Almas. She tells them the location of one missile leading to it being destroyed though by that time The Shadow Company led by Graves and Shepherd betrays Task Force 141 and Los Vaqueros while Valeria is still in their custody.
Luckily Task Force 141 and Los Vaqueros survive the Shadow Company’s betrayal where they storm their headquarters and kill Philip Graves (though it is revealed he survived) where they demand Valeria to tell them where to find Hassan and the final missile. She tells them that both Hassan and the final missile are at Chicago where Hassan plans to launch it from, while also exclaiming that she’d tell them where to find Hassan not that she would stop them forcing task force 141 to leave Las Almas to stop Hassan.
Valeria is then taken into Alejandro Vargas’ company, though Valeria remains calm simply remarking that she’ll be out very soon. She’s proven right in season 3 where she easily escapes prison with the help of her cartel where she and her cartel go to Al Mazrah, where they conduct more criminal activities and gain new territories, leading Alejandro to go to Al Mazrah to bring Valeria and her cartel to justice.
Is She Intelligent? Is She Charismatic?
As a former soldier of Mexican Special Women, the head of a very powerful and influential drug cartel, and a gorgeous woman to boot, Valeria is both brilliant and charismatic manipulating countless people to trust and making deals with her while she uses said deals to get more power and influence for herself while creating the identity of “El Sin Nombre” as the leader of the Las Almas while she pretends to be a mere sicaria when she’s in truth “El Sin Nombre” thus serving as The Man in Front of the Man causing her enemies to underestimate her.
She also presents herself as a caring person to Las Almas by supporting the city’s economy and infrastructure, (like building new roads, schools, etc), bribes the authorities to work for her, and kill those who refuse to do so before presenting their corpses as a demonstration to those who defy her establishing herself as a beloved yet feared figure in her city that wouldn’t dare go against her.
She’s even willing to work with terrorists, such as Hassan, if it means no one will pay attention to the War on drugs and stop her while revealing Hassan’s location in Chicago to drive Task Force 141 out of Las Almas to stop him and never once looses her calm and charm throughout the game even when she gets detained where she simply remarks that she’ll escape prison very soon, which she does before going to Al Mazrah to gain new territories and establish that she’s back making herself one of the very few villains that the heroes never truly defeated, so yeah I’d say she’s a pass here.
What’s The Competition Like?
Valeria is by far one of the most brilliant, charming, and badass villains that the heroes had to face. The villains that don’t count to my knowledge are Barkov and Omar, The Big Bad Ensemble of the first game both of whom are far from this trope as can be with the former being a CM, Hassan who suffers greatly from Bond Villain Stupidity and is a Dirty Coward, Victor Zakhaev, who gets unceremoniously killed off by Price and Hadir Karim who while a Well-Intentioned Extremist is an Unwitting Pawn to Makarov and the Ultranationalists.
Now the contenders that may count as either this or CM depending how they’ll be portrayed in the future (most likely in the upcoming 3rd installment) are General Shepherd who survives the events of 2 giving him a chance to appear in the future (though he suffers greatly from Adaptational Wimp and possesses no redeeming qualities) and Makarov whose the active Greater-Scope Villain of the series (if they chose to portray him like his OG CM counterpart which seems likely given the trailer for the upcoming III then he’ll be a clear no)
Then there's one character that could have qualify but may have a few militating factors: Philip Graves who reveals himself to have survived his battle with Task Force 141, is A Father to His Men and is quite intelligent and charming. Unfortunately he has a few issues shown in the mission "Alone" where his brutal crackdown of sniffing out corruption and find Hassan in Las Almas leads to countless people getting slaughtered while speaking Spanish as a form of mockery. This may imply he's Politically Incorrect Villain but it's hard to tell since he had zero problems working with Alejandro and Farah Karim both of whom are not white, has Black people within his PMC. Anywho I'll put him on the waitlist to see if he'll either count as this or CM if he ever decides to shed his Father to His Men quality and become a Bad Boss, ala King Boo style.
Finally there’s those that have the greatest potential of counting: John Price who like his OG!Counterpart has the charm, smart and bastard qualities, and Ghost whose the Breakout Character of the MW universe who actually survives getting betrayed and is more unscrupulous where he indirectly causes the Hassan's Start of Darkness by killing his beloved commanding officer and his forces, but both of their stories are still ongoing so we'll wait and see..
With all that jotted down it’s safe to say Valeria is the one character that I’m most certain and comfortable with counting, even if she’s still alive and active she clearly and already establishes herself as a brilliant and charming mastermind, one step ahead of her allies, isn’t as brutal as Graves regarding her actions, and never shows any bigotry or pettiness whatsoever with her reasons to help Hassan against Western Powers being Nothing Personal to her as she just the War On Terror to be given focus so no one would pay attention to the War on Drugs and stop her. Plus I doubt she'll appear in 3 given that the focus will be around Makarov, so yeah I’d say she clears the competition here.
Is She a Bitch? Is She Too Much of a Bitch?
Well Valeria was a corrupt official under the cartel’s payroll who killed La Arana to get more power and form her own cartel which revolves around drug trafficking and doing business with terrorists, has no problems killing people, including her own subordinates and those she cant corrupt, is willing to torture people to extract information, helps the Big Bad go to America with stolen missiles in tow knowing he’ll launch said missiles onto Washington DC and kill untold amounts of people, and admittedly doesn’t have much in redeeming qualities so yeah she’s a bitch.
That said Valeria is far too pragmatic and disinterested in being heinous enough for the Complete Monster trope as there are other villains worse than her, said son was already an adult and leader of a drug cartel, she is not committing any senseless and cruel acts of villainy, is willing to help Las Almas flourishes even if it’s purely for pragmatic reasons in getting the people to side with her, she only tortured a few people just to get information, and doesn’t show any hatred towards America, only supporting Hassan’s attack against the country to distract everyone from worrying about trying to catch her, so yeah I don’t think she’s too much of a bitch.
Final Verdict?
I will leave it to you guys to decide.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 24th 2023 at 2:42:05 PM
Lies and Violence!
Darth Jadus and Valerie.
To round out the Sarah Connor Chronicles (Cameron will probably take a bit):
Who is Catherine Weaver?
A rogue liquid metal T-1000 Terminator, implicitly part of a faction of robots who oppose Skynet's plans. Weaver is first introduced (chronologically) in the far future, as an envoy from these machines to John Connor. However, due to the Resistance members transporting her being stupid/paranoid, she ends up killing one of them and initially rejects John's offer of an alliance.
Somehow making her way to 2007 and replacing wealthy CEO Catherine Weaver (it's unclear if she killed Weaver or if she was already dead), the rogue Terminator uses her resources to begin work on the creation of a rival A.I. to fight against Skynet—and while it's ambiguous if she killed the real Weaver, she's definitely up to assassinating board members who complain about her plans, using her shapeshifting powers to sneak up on them.
As the Connors wreak havoc against Skynet's Terminator agents, Weaver works behind the scenes to ensure the Resistance stands a chance in the future; when one of their fights wrecks a power plant, Weaver has one of her shell companies buy it to ensure it will still be standing as a future Resistance base, and kills a supervisor who tries to get the place shut down because of safety violations. Along the way, she recruits Ellison, a former FBI agent who had a run in with the Terminator Cromartie, and convinces him to help her by pretending the death of the real Weaver's husband was because of a Terminator (which may or may not be true if that same accident killed the real Weaver, but we never find out). She employs him to do odd jobs (discovering that supervisor is going to shut the power plant down) and uncover Terminators, which does wonders for her when he recovers Cromartie's body to house her new A.I.
Of course, taking over someone's life comes with complications. Like the real Weaver's daughter, who clearly notices something wrong with her mom. Still, "Weaver" does come to genuinely care for her, taking her to a therapist when it becomes clear she doesn't know how to make children work. He impresses her so much that she hires him to act as a therapist for the developing A.I., named John Henry... who proceeds to accidentally murder him, so Weaver then has Ellison teach him, you know, basic ethics.
Ellison runs into trouble when a Terminator frames him for murder, but Weaver helps him out by shapeshifting into a detective and getting the sole witness, on camera, to admit to seeing the glowing time travel sphere thing the Terminator emerged from, making them seem crazy and allowing Ellison to go free. Of course, that doesn't mean she they're best friends; John Henry discovers letters of resignations from former employees of hers, but can find no evidence of them at their currently-listed jobs. He also finds similar yet incomplete documents for Ellison and several other employees, with dates waiting to be filed in. They're all useful and competent, sure. But if they ever become problematic? Weaver can always get rid of them, and no one will ever be the wiser.
Soon after this, John Henry is able to discover secret shipments of coltan—a material used in the production of Terminators. Realizing this is the work of the Skynet, Weaver heads to the factory where this is happening and proceeds to massacre every human worker there before blowing the place up, before sending agents after the one survivor who just happened to not be at work that day. This sets off a chain of events that lead to her and the Connors meeting. though Sarah accuses her of working for Skynet, Weaver reveals her intentions otherwise and saves them from an assassination, before convincing John to come to the future with her...
For a season 3 that never came.
Mitigating factors?
Due to the show's cancellation, Weaver is shrouded in a lot of ambiguity. We never find out the full extent of her backstory, plans and motivations, but what we do have presents her as an exceptionally competent infiltrator who, while cold and emotionless, is willing to learn from us fleshy people. Her daughter, for instance, is initially quite traumatized by this obvious fake lady who has taken her mom's place, but Weaver goes out of her way to try to make her life more comfortable despite not knowing at all how children work.
And of course, she's masterful at orchestrating events from behind the scenes, using her shapeshifting to assassinate any roadblocks in her way, but—as per most Terminators—she's never sadistic about it. Maybe a bit snarky and prone to dropping Bond One Liners, but otherwise she executes her victims with cold, professional efficiency.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 24th 2023 at 11:53:47 AM
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Write up looks good.
Any more thoughts on Itsuki?
Edited by LarryT on Aug 24th 2023 at 8:56:13 AM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Shadow Ranger
to Itsuki.
Now, a new MB EP from a favourite Familiar of Zero fanfic of mine.
What is the Work?
Noblesse Oblige is a The Familiar of Zero fanfic released in 2016 by shadenight123. A Prequel, Self-Insert fic taking place years before the canon, it centres on Henry, the twin brother of Cattleya, and his ventures within the Familiar of Zero world, where his very presence avoids many of the canon's events and how it would prevent Halkeginia from going into a bellwether of certain doom.
Who is he?
King Joseph Gaul is the crown prince (later king) of Gallia, as well as the father of Isabella. While he is still the same as his canon, being a Void mage and the eldest of the Gallia Royal Siblings, Joseph is less portrayed as a genocidal maniac and more of a neglectful parent and an impolite royal in front of the royal audience. During the story, Joseph gave a paperwork to Henry regarding the ownership of Brittany, which would make him the land's new Duke. From the get-go, he later becomes the newly-minted crown King of Gallia, before unwittingly summons a human familiar named Anne, a quirky and odd woman from France in Earth.
However, in a sudden turn of events during his ruling, Joseph unexpectedly abdicated as the king of Gallia and hands the rulership over to Isabella, his only daughter, resulting in his daughter becoming the new Queen of Gallia, infuriating Henry to the core as he was now unexpectedly given such heavy responsibility from out of nowhere. Joseph used this opportunity to retire with Anne to Earth by reaching the portal through a solar eclipse in Halkeginia. While he's no longer in his home world, Joseph's effects begin to show its true face posthumously during Henry and his army's battle in Albion.
Prior to his departure, Joseph was revealed to be initiating a plan to capture Albion in secret. First he disguised as a beggar within a tavern in Lutece, before secretly meeting with Cromwell, the self-proclaimed "Emperor" of Albion and the leader of the rebellion group Reconquista, as well as few Albionese nobles on his side. Joseph concocted a casus belli (declaration of war) against Albion and funded the rebellion in the shadows, where he would offer Cromwell to be the kingdom's "Emperor", with Joseph offering him free wine in return.
During that said plan, Joseph ordered Henry to pacify Brittany, the entryway to the invasion, where he used a network of spies and means of espionage, with the intention of using the fleet to protect against Albionese forces. At the same time, the spies he sent were used to invade it inside, as he moved onto the next phase of his plan: voluntary abdication to the Gallian throne. Joseph's abdication was revealed to be no mere coincidence, as he initiated it in order to not be held responsible for the end results of the war, where he proceeds to initiate his one last plan: gifting Albion to Isabella, which would ultimately end the war and Albion as a country, but now an extension of Gallia, completing Albion's annexation. Joseph's clever efforts, albeit unsung even to Henry, was what made the Vicious Wind victorious against the war with Albion and the Reconquista without any unnecessary casualties from both sides.
How is he Magnificent?
Uncaring to his daughter and impolite to others, for sure. But Joseph is a strategic chessmaster who rarely breaks down when his plan fails. He was able to formulate a master plan of taking over Albion with Henry by proxy through the shadows without any bloodshed, something that Henry is even unaware of. By disguising as a beggar at a tavern in Lutece, Joseph was able to play the beggar role convincingly, where he was able to win Cromwell's desires by wishing him and his fellow nobles to have someone play the part of Albion's emperor with the offer of a free wine, which was something that Cromwell accepted.
Joseph used the power of casus belli to stoke the Reconquista's takeover of Albion through a rebellion, in order for Gallia to annex it and let Henry pacify the town of Brittany, as it is the entrypoint to the invasion of the kingdom. Through spies that he hired in the underground world, Joseph retrieved vital info from them as he continued on his next phase of plan and that is taking over Albion without any bloodshed. How he does so? By abdicating the Gallian throne voluntarily in front of Henry, so that Isabella would be the successor Queen of Gallia and gifting Albion to her, completing his plan of annexing Albion with no bloodshed at all. Eventually, his plans postquam after leaving Halkeginia paid off at the end, when the Reconquista surrendered voluntarily to Henry and Albion became part of Gallia, all done without unnecessary deaths.
Is he too much of a bastard?
He's still an uncaring Troll, as well as an impolite alcoholic, who treats his daughter Isabella less like his child and more as a subject of his contempt. At one point he even noted to Henry that she (Isabella) is "no good" to him, whilst asking Henry in bitter sarcasm over expecting him to have "some wise counsel" on handling her, showing signs that he's still uncaring over her, as per the canon of how he treated Isabella like dirt.
But too much bastard? That is way out of the question. Joseph in this fic is portrayed way differently here. Despite the aforementioned reasons above, he is less cruel and insane in contrast to his canon counterpart, as he didn't murder his younger brother Charles and usurped the throne, poisoned Tabitha's mother to insanity, using Tabitha for his schemes and he never became the Omnicidal Maniac and The Caligula that he is often portrayed in the original. In short, this Joseph is much, much tamer than his canon counterpart, where his bastard moments equalise with his magnificence.
Verdict
An easy yes, considering as to how he played a major role in Henry's takeover of Albion to the Gallians without any bloodshed.
The Metro series fan! Steam Account: Randum
to the Sensei, Jadus and Valeria.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
To Gaul and Valeria
Ok, gonna tally the votes for Itsuki
Emerald Emperor, Iceaura 39, Alpinist, Overlord, holygrail24, miraculous, Mr-ex777, and myself vote yes
Emperor Geode votes no
jjjj2 and Klavice are leaning towards yes
G-Editor initially said no but appears to have switched to yes, is that right?
I think we have just enough votes to add him
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Got it
Edited by LarryT on Aug 24th 2023 at 12:51:41 PM
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Goku Black
catehine.
I'll also throw in a for ikustuki. We have a bunch of MB masterminds who use cm minions for their schemes like that.
I'm a hard Valeria given what I'm reading. She tortures people, displays corpses as warnings and is complicit in missiles being delivered to DC that would lead to untold numbers of deaths.
The comparison to Thailog is not valid at all. Thailog was defined by Pragmatic Villainy, yes he could be cruel on a personal level, but he didn't engage in any widespread villainy, mostly because it wasn't within his benefit to do so yes, but he could've done so much worse. I'm not getting that at all from Valeria. You don't need to deliver a missile that will level DC to fulfill your goals.
I'm very concerned that you're making that comparison G after your break. The comparison is not valid at all.
Also yes EPs are not required G, but it's still worth it to give a detailed description of the character and their motivations, and I would also appreciate a more in depth description of the character.
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 24th 2023 at 2:53:51 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
Mm. And that’s why I’m trying not to vote in the mornings anymore. Never awake enough to actually think the tougher ones through.
My initial impression was that her efforts to help out the community balanced out the severity of her actions, but if that’s just Villain with Good Publicity stuff and she’s “admittedly doesn’t have much in redeeming qualities”, then yeah, switching to a no there. My bad for missing that.
I’m confused on Gaul. Is he a bastard for orchestrating a takeover, or being an asshole to his daughter? Because if the latter, that’s the kind of thing that takes away magnificence.
I probably need to rewatch some bits of Prime to get a better read of Megatron, so switch to abstain there.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Aug 24th 2023 at 2:54:05 PM
Shadow Ranger
It's more of the former for starting the takeover of Albion in the shadows. But regarding his daughter, while he is still uncaring, it is not to an extent to him being an Abusive Dad, which was what basically his canon counterpart did.
to Catherine
Okay I admit the Thailog comparison may not have been the best comparison (I don't know on how much trouble I may get if I take that bit out, since it's like six words), but I was trying to say that in my opinion Valeria a bit too Pragmatic to be a Complete Monster.
While we so see Valeria torture people it's only a few people she tortured and it was only for information and there isn't any evidence that she did this before. There are are bodies in bags seen there's only a few shown and it's those that tried to go against her and for the most part if you don't cross Valeria, she will leave you alone and is more focused on cultivating her Villain with Good Publicity than committing acts of needless cruelty which is why she has build as schools, hospitals and roads for Las Almas so that she can earning the people’s support.
Finally while she does smuggle a terrorist and his missiles to America despite knowing he'll use them against the USA her reasons is so that the distract the from trying to fight the War on Drugs and try catch her and holds no personal hatred towards America. That is my argument for Valeria, and will see how this goes.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 24th 2023 at 4:15:27 AM
I know what the trope means G, I've been on this thread too.
And torturing people, displaying corpses as warnings, selling a missile that will cause untold deaths in the united states is well beyond Pragmatic Villainy in my mind. I'm still very much a hard .
Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 24th 2023 at 2:53:00 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Jadus and Catherine, but likewise going with No on Valeria.
Honestly have to abstain on Prime!Megatron after a long thinking over it, he's a great villain but also has a nasty Hair-Trigger Temper and a fair amount of cruelty that just make me unsure enough that I can't vote either way. Great effortpost regardless and I'm happy with whatever the results may be.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Valeria
With this discussion going on, I think now's a good as time as any to bring up my next candidate from the Imperial Agent story line. A few days ago, I was contemplating trying a CM/MB crossover but more looking into the character led me to bring him up to the CM clean up thread and have him cut for not being nearly heinous enough by the standards of Star Wars villains. I'm also beginning to think what I wrote off first as mere Pragmatic Villainy might honestly veer far enough to go in to actual redeeming qualities territory. Anyways, let me jump right in the Big Bad of Act 1 of the Agent's story line.
Who is Darth Jadus?
Jadus is widely regarded as the second most powerful Sith in the Empire behind only the Sith Emperor himself and regards the Sith Code as a full political philosophy rather than merely a way to gain power. Whereas many Sith readily give into their emotion and revel in anger and passion, Jadus is a stone cold and nearly emotionless and sees the power and principles of the Dark Side as the true path to helping the Empire reach its true potential. He fundamentally and correctly believes that Sith power plays and backstabbing are tearing the Empire apart and is disgusted with the Empire's rampant xenophobia and racism against aliens that could prove valuable and strengthen the Empire. Within the Empire, Jadus was a member of the Dark Council and led the Sphere of Imperial Intelligence and practiced his philosophy by openly allowing and advocating for aliens to join Imperial Intelligence if they proved their worth.
Jadus believed that hatred and fear were the paths to true power and put that to the test with his daughter Darth Zhorrid, who he raised with cruelty to force her to hate him and gain power from that hatred as his apprentice. His sheer Dark Side presence also drove those around his insane if they stayed in his presence for too long. It's through this belief that Jadus seeks to create a strong Empire held together by hatred and fear, and thus begins the stages of a grand plan to bring this dream to fruition. Jadus begins secretly backing a terrorist cell seeking to overthrow the Empire and uses their resources to build a bioorganic weapon known as the Eradicators that can target and wipe out population centers. Jadus keeps half the activation codes on himself and the other half on the cell's leader the Eagle to prevent his plan from being foiled in one fell swoop.
With his weapons being programmed, Jadus decides to fake his own death to allow himself to formulate the rest of his plan without the Dark Council trying to spy on him. He invites thousands of Imperial dignitaries and Sith onto his dreadnaught and has the terrorists destroy it while he and everyone are on board in order to make it seem like he was an incidental target. Jadus survives by using his Dark Side powers to hold the ship together and hiding out on it, all the while he uses his daughter as a pawn to be placed on the Dark Council in his stead. As he planned, the Dark Council spends much of their resources fighting over supposed resources and secrets Jadus left behind under the belief his insane daughter couldn't keep them hidden. The Agent spends all of Act 1 tracking down and dismantling the Eagle's spy network before eventually tracking him down, killing him, and taking his half of the Eradicator codes.
The Agent is able to track down the other half of the Eradicator codes to Jadus's destroyed dreadnaught. Obviously, the Agent is more than surprised to find Jadus alive and the mastermind behind all the events leading up to this. The Eagle's terrorist cell was designed to spread terror while his daughter's ascension caused chaos in the Dark Council, all so Jadus could use the Eradicators to target and destroy the strongholds of his enemies. When all his rivals were destroyed and the threat of the Eradicators striking fear throughout the Empire, Jadus would swoop in and assume power over the the Empire and unite it under said terror and make it stronger than it had ever been before. Here the Agent has 4 ways to resolve the plot with Jadus.
The Agent can talk Jadus down that his plans can't succeed without the codes the Agent has, to which an impressed Jadus says he both hates and respects the Agent. The Agent can also enter into combat with Jadus and survive long enough to fully deactivate the Eradicators. Both the above options Light Side options lead to Jadus leaving of his own volition with the promise that he would someday return to bring his vision to fruition. The first Dark Side option involves the Agent entering in half the codes to fire the Eradicators off randomly to provide a distraction while sabotaging the ship. This leads to the only option of Jadus losing when the Agent is able to trap him behind a ray shield until the Sith arrive to arrest him.
The final option leads to the Agent deciding Jadus is in the right and joining his as the Hand of Jadus. Jadus orders the Agent to kill his own daughter so he can take her place back on the Council, to which Jadus then goes through with his plans and fires off the weapons. While this damages the Council, the game is an MMO and can't strive too far from the overall plot, so Jadus simply returns as the most powerful member of the Council rather than the sole surviving Sith. He begins the process of reshaping the Empire regardless, until he uses the Agent to uncover the Emperor's omnicidal plans. Jadus then leaves the known galaxy to plot like in the first two options, but leaves a vast amount of material and wealth to the Agent to use in their crusade against the Star Cabal in Act 3.
Is he magnificent?
Jadus is stone cold sociopath, that's for certain. Yet he never displays any hint of rage or emotional breakdowns in the endings where he loses and is always perhaps the most overall calm and collected Sith Lord encountered. Pragmatism defines Jadus better than anything else. He fully believes aliens and non-Force users can be valuable to the Empire, shows genuine respect towards the Agent if they side with him or even outplay him, and outright says he has no desire to use the Eradicators on random targets but rather on the bases of his enemies. Though, of course, he doesn't care about bystanders getting killed in the process.
Nothing he ever does is for the sake of sadism alone, as even tormenting his own daughter into hating him was to make her a useful apprentice and pawn. One could even make the argument that as dystopic as his vision is, it would still make the Empire stronger and more united than how the Sith currently run it.
Is he a bastard?
Jadus did enough evil to be previously listed as a CM even though I successfully argued he wasn't nearly bad enough by Star Wars standards. He uses terror to mold those close to him into effective servants, secretly backed a terrorist cell that caused thousands of deaths, and tries to unite the Empire into a dystopia.
Yet when I began looking over him, I found he has a lot in common with a Star Wars CM turned MB Darth Bane. Both are utterly ruthless pragmatists who seek to reshape the Sith into something far stronger than is was before, yet Jadus doesn't even do as much as Bane in that regard either. Bane wipes out an entire world and traps an army of Jedi and Sith in a horrible state for thousands of years, and he and his apprentice Darth Zannah, another CM turned MB, both do some pretty cruel things to innocent people that rather overshadow what Jadus does to his daughter. My main argument in this regard is that if Bane and Zannah can pass over from the Complete Monster trope to this based on their crimes and plans, then I feel Jadus hits all the marks as well.
Final verdict?
Overall, I do think Jadus is a complex character that deserves discussion. I personally think he hits the mark for this far better than CM, but I'd like to see what you all think.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.