Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Violations, misuse, and other issues

That might have been part of it, but ROCEJ was an equal factor at least. With Alex Jones becoming embroiled in the Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, lawsuits, and much more, it reached a boiling point that far outweighed any merit to keeping it.

Also, while we have been moving away from ROCEJ warnings for anything political for the most part, they do still see usage for especially politically charged Flame-bait pages, such as the Trumplica page.

Edited by DDRMASTERM on Dec 13th 2021 at 10:32:26 AM

Thing is, I'm pretty sure it's actually against the rules to pothole ROCEJ.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That's more or less the precedent I'm thinking of, yeah. I suppose that could be reworked into an American News Media page, though I think it makes as or more sense to give the TV networks a separate page. I just don't think they all need individual ones.

Alright, I started a Wiki Talk thread about the news networks subject. Admittedly with a poor-quality OP, but I wrote it at 3-4 in the morning my time so I wasn't thinking clearly when it was written.

If anyone has thoughts on the subject, please share them there.

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Regarding the American News Media page, should various far-right news channels be added?

Kirby is awesome.

They are technically news media.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Wasn’t Fox News forced to admit in court that they weren’t news or else they would be sued out of existence?

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?

Fox News isn't the Weekly World News, if that's what you're implying. They're no more biased than their left-wing counterparts.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Strongly disagree on that but that's neither here nor there.

Adding far-right news channels would probably lead to several more ROCEJ infractions and discussions because we would once again be stuck between accurately describing them but not being openly negative or appearing to condemn them. Also, some of the further-right channels - the kind that are big on Twitter but few people actually watch - seem liable to start online drama with TVTropes if they don't feel our coverage of them is accurate, which... they would almost certainly feel.

Nothing wrong with covering right-wing news channels but once you get into InfoWars territory then they're far more trouble than they're worth.

Well, with Fox there is also the issue that the news channel and the talk shows aren't the same thing. Many of the criticisms of Fox are about the latter.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Fox's actual news reporting is usually considered okay from what I've heard.

When like it doesn't involve their insane talkshow hosts like Carlson.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

Randomly scrolling through the pages for that 2018 Heathers show and found, uh, this (bold is mine):

• Franchise Original Sin: In the musical, Heather Duke has been consistently portrayed by a nonwhite actress. Considering that Duke became more villainous in the transition from movie to musical, it's not a large leap in logic to spot racist undertones in this casting. However, this dog whistle, while boneheaded at best and unapologetically bigoted at worst, is a masterpiece in intersectional diversity compared to the 2018 reboot, in which all the Heathers are members of marginalized groups AND are considered "oppressors" of the straight, white good-looking students.

Like I'm tired as hell but this is general is just. Bad.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

That whole entry is very complain-y. It needs a rewrite at best.

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That’s a reach if I’ve ever seen one. I can kiiiiiinda see where they’re coming from^note it’s kinda sus if your only character of color is antagonistic while the “good guys” are all white, but “antagonistic non-white character” automatically meaning “bigoted dogwhistle”? That’s a new one.

Edited by worldwidewoomy on Dec 24th 2021 at 8:56:45 AM

Stan GaruKaru for clear skin

Tbh'd just cut the entire entry......

Saying you can't have a villainous or antagonistic character without it being a "boneheaded racist dog whistle" is such a huge stretchh that I'm not sure what this entry is even saying......

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I'm in two minds about it. The inflammatory language in the first part obviously needs to go, but if the evillest character in the play is commonly played by a person of colour, that could legitimately be Unfortunate Implications. Of course, that said, we can't pothole it to Unfortunate Implications unless we have an appropriate citation for it.

But she's not the evilest person in that play. Duke is just a minion their?

Heather Chandler and JD Dean (who's usually played by a white guy and is an actual serial killer and terrorist ) are the worst people in the play.

Edited by miraculous on Dec 18th 2021 at 10:02:02 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I mean, it's a complicated issue, obviously; In a perfect world we should be able to say that it doesn't and shouldn't matter what race/gender/sexuality/etc a character is, but we don't live in that perfect world, and so there is some issues presented with one of the villains being a POC when the protagonist is while. Of course, though, that's assuming that there was even any intent at all and not just a coincidence involved in casting everyone, and I'm pretty sure it's just an unfortunate result with nothing deeper intended. But hey, who knows at the end of the day?

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 18th 2021 at 1:31:31 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'm sure it's not intentional, but of course, Unfortunate Implications exist because people don't think things through.

That said, while Duke is a terrible person (she bullies Macnamara to near suicide, IIRC, though that was also kind of a vision, and I think she does similar to Martha), she's not necessarily worse than Chandler and is actually given more sympathy. And of course JD is far worse. It is weird that she's usually the only nonwhite character though. (IDK why there's a trend of the Beta Bitch being nonwhite specifically...Mean Girls did it too.)

Either way, the entry should be rewritten to get rid of the unnecessary insults.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Somewhere else we were talking about the idea of a "white hero nonwhite villain" trope I still think is interesting, and I can think of at least one other instance of the Beta Bitch being non-white (Camp Rock, though at least there the Girl Posse both turned on the Alpha Bitch and weren't all that mean throughout the film).

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yeah speaking of the "white hero, POC villain" thing, I recall that in Iron Man 3, it turns out that a British dude was pretending to be the Mandarin due to concerns over Yellow Peril as Tony Stark is white while Mandarin isn't. I'm not sure if that was actually a good idea but that trope served as a reason for why the twist was done.

Edited by Cutegirl920fire on Dec 18th 2021 at 10:54:12 AM

Victor of HGS S320 | "There's rosemary, that's for remembrance. Pray you, love, remember."

I think it's more "concerns over the film getting Banned in China".

Avatar by Butterscotch Arts. Used under license.

I found Burzum. For those of you who don't know, Burzum is a musical project by Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician infamous for burning down churches, murdering one of his bandmates during his time in Mayhem, and promoting far-right conspiracy theories. Some of the tropes on the page are about Varg himself, rather than his work.

• Badass Bookworm: Varg has previously expressed his admiration for many different authors. The most famous example is probably J. R. R. Tolkien, from whose work Varg takes Burzum's name
• Conspiracy Theorist: Varg has promoted numerous conspiracy theories since his release from prison, and many of them are detached from reality even by far-right ideological standards. See “Insane Troll Logic” below.
• Insane Troll Logic: Varg espouses a number of conspiracy theories as part of his far-right ideology, and many of them are very unusual even by that standard - from the idea that Neanderthals were actually beautiful superhuman “Aryan” giants (he claims all realistic depictions of how Neanderthals actually may have looked based on their real genetic material and excavated bones are somehow forgeries) who are the ancestors of the “Indo-European race” and are somehow still alive in a Lost World beneath the Hollow Earth^note For starters, while it’s true that some Eurasian populations have residual traces of Neanderthal DNA, this is a result of humans assimilating them out of existence. Europeans rather unsurprisingly did not originate from this and are the descendants of Homo Sapiens like every other human population in the world, a fact that Varg really seems to wish wasn’t true. to the idea that people with neurodivergencies are actually people with latent psionic abilities suppressed by corrupt modern society.
• Pet the Dog: Despite being a known eugenicist and white supremacist, Varg condemned Christianity for its destruction of cultures all across the world, including those in Africa and pre-Columbian America.
  • He even says the resurgent modern American fascist movement is “pathetic” and “laughable” because white Americans stole indigenous peoples’ land and thus have no right to it.
• Refuge in Audacity: Varg claimed to have stabbed Euronymous in self defense at his murder trial. Euronymous had 23 wounds on his corpse. Although he claims that many of Euronymous' "stab wounds" were actually inflicted by broken glass he threw him down upon (not entirely implausible, considering several of these wounds were on the soles of his feet).
  • He also put a picture of the burned-down Fantoft Stave Church on the cover of his EP Aske (Ashes). And this worked. He was convicted of burning down 3 other churches, but found not guilty of burning down the Fantoft Stave Church.
• Straight Edge Evil: In the present day, Varg espouses and practices a healthy lifestyle, free of drugs, porn, deviant sexual acts, and a focus on the family. This is the same Varg who burned down up to 4 churches, stabbed his bandmate to death, and preaches eugenics and antisemitism.
• Younger Than They Look: Varg is only in his mid forties, but his grey hair and big, grey beard make him look considerably older.

---

The only one of these that I'm unsure about cutting is Younger Than They Look, and maybe Conspiracy Theorist.

EDIT: While I'm at it, the page for Mayhem itself also has some problematic-looking tropes:

• Card-Carrying Villain: Euronymous was completely shameless when it came to calling himself evil. See the quote at the top of the page.
  • This ended up blowing up in his face after Vikernes' (first) arrest, where he closed down his metal shop to avoid bringing unwanted attention to him and his family, and then publicly apologized on behalf of the entire Black Metal community, making himself the laughingstock of the entire scene.
• Cluster F-Bomb: When you do an interview with Necrobutcher, while he's drunk, things can get a little weird.
• Driven to Suicide: Dead in a tragic real life example.
• Everyone Has Standards: Necrobutcher was disgusted with Euronymous's reaction to Dead's death and ended their friendship over it.
• The Friend No One Likes: Before his death, this was where Euronymous was at. While it was his drive and marketing savvy that got the Norwegian black metal scene off the ground and brought it to international attention, he had long since worn out his welcome, and by the end of his life, most people saw him as a pretentious, ego-tripping bully and inveterate scene cop who cared a whole lot about image and not much else.
• I'm a Humanitarian: Euronymous was rumored to have removed part of Dead's brain, and made a stew with it. He denied this, but he did remove several shards of his skull.
• Knight of Cerebus: While it would be unfair to call Dead a villain, Mayhem got a lot darker once he joined. It was around then that they changed from a run-of-the-mill death metal band to the Trope Codifier for the Darker and Edgier strain of black metal best known today, and that Euronymous took several levels in jerkass, driving Dead to suicide and used his death as part of the band's image, as explained under the page quote.
• Meaningful Name: There certainly was a lot of mayhem among these guys, onstage and (especially) off...
  • Then there's Euronymous, who named himself after a Greek spirit of death and declared war on every band he considered "life metal", and of course, Dead, who believed himself to not be truly alive.
• Only Sane Man:
  • Necrobutcher. In comparison to Euronymous, Dead, Maniac and Hellhammer, Jørn is the only member of the original lineup who seems fairly normal (aside from swearing like a maniac) and didn't engage in any criminal acts. Though more recently, he claimed that he had plans to kill Euronymous himself. Not that many could blame him.
  • Blasphemer, Teloch, and Ghul can be seen as this too, being the fairly new/past members who aside from being in Mayhem, were fairly calm guys. Attila can also count despite his theatrics of outfits.
• Real Men Eat Meat: Inverted in the case of Attila Csihar, a longtime vegetarian.
• Took a Level in Jerkass: Euronymous. At the start, he was generally considered a fun person to hang out and jam or blast music with, but once Dead joined and Mayhem became a more serious band, his ego went through the roof, and he treated Dead like absolute shit and also regularly encouraged all of his most troubling and unhealthy behaviors, up to effectively engineering his suicide solely to further their image, while also egging on the church burnings and relentlessly playing "scene cop" with anyone who he felt wasn't sufficiently committed, often by threatening them with physical harm. By the end of his life, he was almost universally despised and the only reason people still associated with him was because he had valuable connections, and when he was murdered, few, if any people mourned him, and even the few who did still call him a friend mostly saw it as him fucking around and finding out.

Edited by Zuxtron on Dec 22nd 2021 at 1:52:21 PM

oh god! kill it! kill it with fire!

I’ll get the flamethrower.

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?