During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
The wifi here sucks
Anyways, thoughts on what to do about the possibility of making more subpages? At the very least it may be a good idea to decide what is the minimum number of entries required for a page.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
We decided on 7 for Complete Monster pages, so that should work just as well here.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
If nothing else, I say that Fan Works should at least be separated and be given a page.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 3rd 2020 at 3:03:51 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Now that the fic that prompted my original effortpost has more or less concluded (only one chapter remains, and it'll be out on Sunday), I think its time to make another.
What's the work?
Mastermind: Strategist for Hire is a My Hero Academia For Want Of A Nail fanfic where Izuku becomes a Villain. It can be read at AO3 here.
Who is Izuku Midoriya/Mastermind? What does he do?
Izuku Midoriya is a teenager who has suffered merciless bullying and discrimination since the age of four for being Quirkless.
After finding himself unable to get even a minimum-wage job (specifically getting a position at McDonalds), he turns to selling plans to other Villains (mainly for murders and thefts) as the titular Mastermind, eventually becoming one of the biggest threats to Pro Heroes in Japan.
Does he have intelligence?
Absolutely - going by his analytical abilities leading police to believe he has either an intelligence or an analysis Quirk, Izuku's abilities and intelligence reach Charles Atlas Superpower levels. To give more concrete examples, sorted by chapter:
- The first plan he creates, used to kill Mt. Lady, used her love of the spotlight against her to lure her to a crowded area where she can't use her Quirk and to distract her long enough to let her attacker fatally stab her. (Chapter 1)
- He quickly determines Shinsou's Quirk is activated by speaking to him during the USJ attack (Chapter 13)
- He works out Dabi's true identity as Touya Todoroki, Shouto's brother, from only his teal eyes, his Quirk and his hated of Heroes, particularly of Endeavor (Chapter 18)
Of particular note is his work with the League of Villains - his assistance helps two of their plans to succeed where they had failed in canon:
- First, their plan to attack the USJ, with the intent of killing All Might.
- The Plan: Relatively straightforward: warp in, bring the USJ Nomu, and try to kill All Might, all the while making sure the students don't reach the entrance to call for help from Pro Heroes.
- Izuku's Alteration: Izuku, knowing All Might can only remain powered up for three hours per day, keeps All Might occupied with stopping crimes for two hours before getting to class.
- The Result: All Might's time limit runs out during the USJ attack, leading to Izuku killing him with two stabs to his old injury.
- Second, their plan to attack the UA Training Camp.
- The Plan: Another straightforward plan: attack the UA Training Camp, kidnap a Hero student (initially choosing Bakugou Katsuki given how much like a Villain he acts) and recruit them to the League of Villains.
- Izuku's Alteration: Izuku shoots down Shiragaki's choice of Bakugou, reasoning that he wouldn't join the League because he doesn't see himself as a Villain. Izuku instead recommends the League kidnap Shouto Todoroki, reasoning that Endeavor's abuse of him gives him the perfect reason to join. That Izuku has the help of his long-lost brother, Touya Todoroki (aka Dabi), doesn't hurt.
- The Result: The League's choice to kidnap Shouto instead of Bakugou pays off - after an oddly heartwarming scene where Shouto and Dabi (aka Touya) reunite and bond over their abuse at Endeavor's hands, Shouto joins them wholeheartedly, becoming the Villain Freezerburn.
Is he a bastard?
Without a doubt. As the Villain Protagonist of the fic, Izuku quickly becomes the most infamous Villain in Japan, holding the top 50 Heroes in Japan hostage in case he gets caught and ultimately ends up helping the League of Villains bring down the Hero System. Most of his villainy is offscreen, though.
Going by an interview between Tsukauchi and Chitose Kizuki in Chapter 27, a majority of Pro Hero deaths in the year and a half since Izuku became a Villain can be traced back to him, and Tsukauchi himself refers to Mastermind as having killed hundreds of people in Chapter 29, indicating quite the number of kills made due to Mastermind's plans that we don't see in the fic.
- Mt. Lady, Pro Hero (Chapter 1)
- Stretch, Pro Hero (Chapter 3)
- Unnamed Sidekick working for Edgeshot (Chapter 3)
- Ten Pro Heroes, all unnamed (Chapter 4)
- Glimmer, Sidekick working for Uwabami (Chapter 8)
- Wash, #8 Hero (Chapter 10)
- Tanaka, leader of the Blue Dogs gang (Chapter 11)
- Takahashi, Blue Dogs gang member (Chapter 11)
- Two additional unnamed Blue Dogs members (Chapter 11)
- All Might, Symbol of Peace/#1 Hero (Chapter 13, appropriately enough)
- "Hero Killer" Stain, S-Rank Villain (Chapter 17)
- Rappa, Chronostasis, Setsuno, Sakaki, Nemoto and Katsukami, Shie Hassaikai members (Chapter 23)
- Overhaul, leader of the Shie Hassaikai (Chapter 23)
- Endeavor, #1 Hero (Chapter 26)
- Skeptic, Meta Liberation Army member (Chapter 32)
- Giran, victim of Izuku's paranoia (Chapter 33)
- Hisashi Midoriya, leader of the Dragon's Horde (Chapter 37)
- A dozen of Hisashi's men (Chapter 37)
TOTAL: 44 Deaths (15 Heroes, 2 Sidekicks, 13 named Villains and 14 [[Mook unnamed Villains]])
Does he have charm?
In two major ways.
Firstly, he has the audience's sympathy from the outset - his primary motivation for becoming a Villain is an inability to find even a minimum-wage job due to prejudice against his Quirklessness, not to mention All Might had crushed his dreams of becoming a Hero before the story had begun.
Additionally, he has shown himself to be a full-blown Badass Normal on multiple occasions:
- He escapes a Hero raid set up to capture him, using his wits extensively as mentioned in the below section (Chapter 9)
- After Stain tries to kill him to avenge All Might, Izuku returns the favour by fighting and ultimately killing him (Chapter 17)
- After Overhaul attacks Inko as a threat towards Izuku, he pretends to have given up and joined him, only for him to single-handedly slaughter him and his entire gang (Chapter 23)
That he also saved Eri from Overhaul and anonymously dropped her off at Nighteye's agency doesn't hurt.
Can he think on his feet?
His escape from a Hero raid set up to capture him in Chapter 9 gives three examples:
- After Kamui Woods binds him with his Quirk], he goes limp like he's given up, causing Kamui to loosen his grip enough for Izuku to grab a mini flamethrower and burn both him and his branches, letting him escape his grasp.
- After Eraserhead wraps Izuku with his scarf, Izuku works out Eraserhead isn't used to Villains fighting back after he takes their Quirks, and makes use of this to catch him by surprise, cutting himself free and blinding him with a flashbang, letting him escape.
- After he escapes the warehouse, he takes off his Villain costume and acts like an ordinary teenager, letting him remain Beneath Notice until he gets back home.
His fight against the Eight Precepts also shows his ability to think on his feet, making use of Deadly Dodging against Rappa so he hits his allies instead of him.
Final Verdict?
To repeat my initial effortpost, there's a pretty strong argument in favour of Izuku/Mastermind qualifying. Its a :tup: from me.
Appendix
The author of this fic also has another Quirkless!Izuku fic, Deku? I think he's some pro... (AO3 Link), which I highly recommend.
Additionally, she's made a Discord for her works, which you can access here.
EDIT: Last-minute fixes to the post. The original version was kinda messed up.
Edited by BlueMonday1984 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 9:13:45 AM
He's gonna be in the last chapter I'm guessing? Might wanna wait just to see.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
We don't know what Luxu or Mo M want....but isn't that the same with G Man?
Things are really about to get Fun around here
I don't so much have an issue with that as I do that the arc is ongoing. If there's a long wait between games and someone wants to I'm open to hearing it but generally I prefer waiting.
Waiting till I get an update on if Mastermind's arc is still going before I vote.
Any more votes on Zavulon?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Oh I forgot to vote. Yes to Zavulon.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 3rd 2020 at 4:32:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The wifi here sucks
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zavulon and I say hold off on mastermind until the last chapter.
For the pages: if we wanna rip off CM they've got Theatre under Other Media, Visual Novels has its own page, Fan Works has its own page and Music gets its own... do we wanna reformat accordingly? Leave it like it is? Do something else? I really don't mind as long as most are happy with the end result.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 6:37:32 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
The only thing I really think like I said before is I think Fan Works should get it's own page. I think Theatre is fine to keep separate as well.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Anyone else? At the end of the day, I just want to save myself time so I'd rather anything that looks like it'll need a page eventually just get one.
Lizzid people!
Sure we can split it up like how CM is.
The wifi here sucks
I would suggest that we make 15 the minimum for a page but I'd rather not get rid of an existing page. How about 10?
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That is a great quote![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Edited by papyru30 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 7:31:39 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I'm fine with making the other pages as well. If we do this I might have found a quote for the potential Fan Works page. I found on that one fanfic Thanos' character page here.
I'm not sure. I have never been good with quotes.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 3rd 2020 at 8:37:43 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Put straightforward: formatting is probably my least favourite aspect of curating this thread which I otherwise love. If I do a split, it will probably be the last until we hit character capacity and have to sub-divide. Since going by CM the theatre examples don't seem to stretch into mass numbers, I don't mind merging that into Other Media but in terms of what's coming out, I only want to have to create new pages one time over, so anything we don't think will ever have enough examples should stay.
I'm fine for your quote Bull.
The wifi here sucks
Going by that, how about we make fan works (since it already has a lot) and music (since it's been growing rather fast recently) pages, move the theater examples (and the quote) to other media and keep Visual Novels on there for now.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
N seems to have a treasure trove of them from what I recall on CM so I might do VN as well just to be safe.
Here are the two Venture Brothers write ups. I don't much care for doing pot holes anymore so you can fill in on the drafts page if you feel like it.
- The Sovereign is an unnamed shape shifter who took on the guise of David Bowie to lead the Guild of Calamitous Intent for decades. Despite being given the Guild by the Investors, he more than earned his position. He frames the Guild's rival villains SPHINX for the death of Jonas Venture ensuring their destruction in a series of brutal wars with the OSI, while also bringing about the Guild's rise to power. Would-be usurper Phantom Limb is also handily defeated twice, first by faking his death and ambushing Limb and then later giving the Guild to its true successor, Dean Venture, only to be officially given control right back. His greatest scheme involved masterminding the destruction of the Gargantua-2 space station to ensure the deaths of all his enemies, such as the Investors, Limb's Revenge Society, and the OSI, despite knowing thousands of innocents would die as well. A nobody wanting to be somebody, the ever affable Sovereign's eventual downfall is seen in a somber light despite his atrocities.
- Molotov Cocktease is a professional mercenary assassin and the love interest and primary rival of Brock Samson. First seen rescuing Brock from a death trap, she helps him rescue the Ventures only to immediately bail to accomplish her real mission of stealing a rare panda for the Sovereign. Her greatest showing, however, was ordering Brock's old mentor Hunter Gathers to make him believe the OSI wanted him dead, hiring assassins herself to kill him, and sitting back as Brock defeated said assassins ensuring her new Black Hearts organization had no competition. Realizing Brock had gone soft in her eyes, she infiltrated his new team to rescue her new lover Monstroso and set her assassins to murder his loved ones to escape, only to later betray Monstroso to the OSI and take her place as a double agent in their employ. Despite having no henchmen or magic powers, Molotov always manages to use her sharp mind and skills of seduction to remain in position of power and prestige.
I also made a very slight adjustment to Killinger's write up about remaking the Guild in his image, since I loved that wording from the write up. You can remove it if you find it superfluous.
For a broader potential addition, is it worth mentioning in his entry that the he single handedly reformed the ineffectual Revenge Society into a truly fearsome villain team? I felt that is one of his more stand out accomplishments.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure. I'm fine with that.
Edit: And I did it myself.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 12:54:30 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
- Night Watch: Zavulon is the leader of the Dark Others, a magical organization that's been in a cold war with its Light counterpart for centuries. When he learns that a couple powerful Great Others have been born, he reveals to one of them that his Light-aligned father Anton Gorodetsky tried to have him aborted, convincing him to join the Dark. After training the boy for a couple years, Zavulon has Anton framed for murder by promising a vampire he'd make his son human if he did the killing. After killing the son for attacking him when his manipulations are exposed, Zavulon reveals that this was all a plan to get the two Great Others to fight, as one spilling the other's blood would make the cold war hot again. The scheme goes off without a hitch, only being stopped when Anton uses a powerful item to rewrite time.
How's this for a Visual Novels page quote?
"From the beginning, I was destined to betray everyone from the start!" -Nameless Female Spy, Ace Attorney Investigations
I think Simon Keyes might have a better one if this isn't accepted.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 4th 2020 at 12:06:09 PM
Alright, we've done what we can, if they add again, ATT and report the edit war, otherwise they can come here and flirt with us about it.
Given how people seemed pretty understanding when Palpatine, Johan, TDK!Joker, etc. were taken down hopefully it doesn't become an issue.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 3rd 2020 at 11:35:59 AM