During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I'd say no. It sounds like he is still on the side of good and while anti heroes have been approved it is usually because their methods are really harsh.
Gotta say no as well, weighing in how nasty a player can make him behave isn't going to get him points here.
Well that's a no go for T-Bone I believe. Not really surprised. Anywho here's Jordi's write-up before I forget:
- Watch_Dogs: Jordi Chin is a witty yet professional fixer hired by Aiden Pearce to track down Maurice Vega, the man who killed Aiden's niece. Finding Maurice Vega at a baseball stadium and killing his men, Jordi stages the scenario to be a gang-shooting before calling the police distracting everyone while he and Aiden escape taking Maurice with them; When Jordi learns that someone survived their attack and can identify them, he has Aiden infiltrate the prison the witness his being hold up to silence him. Jordi eventually betrays Aiden after receiving a contract to kill him, though he does reveal Maurice's location after surviving their scuffle. Appearing in the sequel's DLC, "Human Conditions", Jordi teams up with DedSec hacker Marcus Holloway in tracking down the Russian Mob, Bratva. Tracking down Bratva's leader at a yacht, Jordi goes in to kill the leader, while pinning his murder on Marcus before escaping.
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 3rd 2019 at 9:28:32 AM
Goku Black
From Count and Countess
- Magnificent Bastard: Sultan Mehmed
Anyone read this one. It sounds fasctinatimg. Vlad Tepes and Elizabeth Bathory being pen pals across time.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
That is an interesting concept... if someone wants it for MB that's fine but I gotta check that out.
Alright so I’ve got one more candidate to discuss from the book series The Hunger Games, but first lets talk about that series.
What’s The Work?
The Hunger Games are a trilogy of novels that would be adapted to a series of films. The premise is set in a dystopian world called Panem, which is a North American country consisting of the wealthy Capitol and 12 districts. Every year children from the districts are selected via lottery to participate in a compulsory televised Battle Royale death match called The Hunger Games which are overseen by the Game-makers. One such game Game Maker happens to be my candidate to discuss, Plutarch Heavensbee.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Plutarch Heavensbee replaces Seneca Crane as the Head Gamemaker of the next Hungers Games, who makes his first formal debut in the 2nd book Catching Fire. In charge of making the 75th Hunger Games or the 3rd Quarter Quell and becoming President Snow’s right hand man, Plutarch pitches Snow the idea of having all the children who won the previous hunger games to return and participate in the Hungers Games again.
Snow loves the idea of having previous winners return so that he can get rid of last year’s co-winner Katniss Everdeen and Peeta Mellark as their actions has sparked a rebellion against Snow. However during the 75th Hunger Games, Plutarch would reveal himself to be a leader of the rebellion against Snow and orchestrates the break-in to the stadium having a hovercraft and his men rescue Katniss and some of the participants that he recruited.
As a leader of the rebellion Plutarch created numerous propaganda against Snow causing many people to join the rebellion. Also as Snow’s number two, Plutarch actually convinced Snow he ramps up random executions and re-institutes whippings all to create more animosity against Snow, even allowing a bomb that Snow detonated to explode all so that everyone would hate Snow and favor the rebellion.
With all the districts against Snow, Plutarch has the rebellion attack the Capitol, finally bringing Snow to justice and dismantling his government. However the Rebellion appoints Alma Coin as the new president of Panem who decides to conduct a Hunger Games with the capital children being forced to participate in.
Luckily Plutarch never actually trusting Coin gives Katniss subtle hints that Coin might be the one who orchestrated the bombing that kill her sister Prim. This leads to Katniss making the assumption herself and deciding to execute Coin for Prim’s murder, while Plutarch smiles as his manipulations work once more.
After defending Katniss, Plutarch would becoming Secretary of Communications and since both Snow and Coin are dead Plutarch would get to chose the next person to become president, whom Plutarch would most likely manipulate into becoming the leader that he see fit for Panem.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As both a spy and a high ranking member of the Rebellion Plutarch is absolutely brilliant and charismatic. He’s been undercover in the Capitol for years climbing up to the ranks and eventually becoming Snow’s second-in-command, manipulating Snow into having previous winners return on the pretense that this would crush the rebellions’ hope, when in truth it will bring everyone who hates Snow together, where he would orchestrate their escape and recruit them into the rebellion.
Seriously the only person who doesn’t trust Plutarch is Katniss and even then he still manages to have Katniss do what he wants by having her light the signal for Plutarch to free them, and killing Coin at Plutarch’s edging. Eventually Katniss decides to leave Plutarch be as he chooses the person to rule all of Panem.
What’s The Competition Like?
Plutarch is by far the most cunning, charming, and successful character in the book trilogy. The only ones coming close to Plutarch are Snow and Coin. However Snow is a confirmed CM whose conducted numerous atrocities throughout the books and gets manipulated by Plutarch while Coin’s decision to detonate the bomb killing the capitol’s children and Prim destroys any magnificent and in the she’s just a high functioning Smug Snake who lets her guard down at the end as she makes her speech allowing Katniss to kill her. So yeah, Plutarch clears the competition here.
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Okay, so it was Plutarch who came up with the plan to have previous winners return to compete in the 75th Hunger Games making him responsible for whoever died in that game, suggested Snow to ramp up executions and re-institute whippings, was actually happy that Snow blew up one of their buildings (it was evacuated but still), and the rebellion that Plutarch was in wasn’t so good after all as they blew up a bomb killing the capitol children and Prim and tries to reinstate the Hunger Games with the Capitol Children competing, so yeah Plutarch is a bastard.
That said he regarded as a Necessary Evil as with everything unscrupulous thing Plutarch does and the casualties caused by his manipulations is the bring animosity to the corrupt government led by Snow causing the people to rise up against him, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Plutarch himself participate in the bombing killing the capitol children and Prim, and shows disgusts that Coin is every bit as power-hungry as Snow, so much so that he was actually happy that Katniss executed Coin. Plutarch even defends Katniss for murdering Coin, and later gets to chose the president who Plutarch will supervise to make sure they won’t be corrupted assholes like Snow and Coin. Plus he’s far from the worst person in the books, especially if you compare him and Snow and Coin.
Final Verdict?
Everyone, I present to you all the true winner of the Hunger Games!
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 4th 2019 at 8:00:55 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Plutarch
The wifi here sucks
The Draftsman of Doom
for Plutarch
Edited by TellAll111 on Dec 4th 2019 at 10:19:50 AM
Definite to Plutarch.
Quick catch up: ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the Joker and to Bierko.
to Astronema based on the EP. Based on the EP, to Paige as well.
Not sure if I missed any others, but: to keeping Talia, to Billy, to Owen, to Deckard, Definite to Sinclair, to Gwen without any trouble at all, DEFINITE to Ed (God rest Robert Forster), to Erwich, to Henderson and to Samir.
I'm good now. Let's move on.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 2nd 2021 at 8:46:53 AM
Goku Black
Plutarch
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Plutarch.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
I'm excited, because today is the first time I have a possible MB candidate who is pitted against my CM candidate from the same movie.
What is the work?
I wrote the page for Triple Threat, here is what the page says:
"Triple Threat is a 2019 action thriller."
"A villager loses his wife when a band of mercenaries massacre his village to free their leader; days later an heiress pledges money to charity in order to combat corruption, making her a target of said team of mercenaries, on behalf of a local mobster. Meanwhile, two of the mercenaries have taken up illegal boxing. Each path collides in a heated final confrontation."
The villager is the candidate in question.
Who is Jaka, and how does he operate?
We first meet Jaka when his wife is killed in the village massacre at the beginning of the film. He mourns her loss, proceeds to confront one of the mercenaries, Payu, taking the latter on in a martial arts duel, only for it to be interrupted by a shot from a grenade launcher which knocks Jaka unconscious.
When Jaka comes to, he buries the dead, including his wife, swearing vengeance on the mercenaries.
Jaka later confronts Payu and fellow defector Long Fei in an illegal fighting tournament, where he tries to kill Long Fei in the ring, only for Long Fei to defeat him. Payu recognizes Jaka, brings him to his and Long Fei's apartment to help Jaka recuperate, and to give him food, while they reveal that they had thought they were going to be freeing women and children, as opposed to a notorious criminal, and that they had been betrayed by the mercenaries when they refused to co-operate. In return, Jaka calls the police on the duo, informing on their illegal fighting activities, hoping to use them as bait for the mercenaries.
Jaka then calls with a message for Collins with the duo's location, before making his way to the police station, where incapacitates a mercenary, Steiner, allowing Payu to neutralize Steiner and revealing that he had Payu and Long Fei arrested to draw out the mercenaries. He proceeds to eliminate another mercenary, Mook, with her own grenade launcher.
When Jaka later encounters Collins in person, he poses as a mole, offering to help Collins with the duo. Jaka allows Payu and Long Fei to escape with Collins' other target, Tian Xiao Xian, an heiress who wants to combat corruption.
Collins' lieutenant, Deveraux, does not trust Jaka, but is prevented from acting on his suspicions by Collins. Despite Deveraux's multiple attempts at intimidation, Jaka retains his composure.
Eventually, Jaka makes his move, turning on the Mercenaries, having a hand in their defeat. Jaka calls the Chinese embassy to inform them of Tian's location.
At the end, Payu and Long Fei jokingly berate Jaka for nearly getting them killed as the Chinese embassy personnel arrive.
Is he intelligent and charismatic?
Jaka is definitely intelligent enough to know how to lure the mercenaries into a trap, and enough of a smooth talker to make them think he is on their side, plus he has enough dignity not to allow Devereaux to provoke him.Is he a morally flexible?
Someone who has people arrested to lure dangerous targets, then poses as a mole for said targets, cannot be called anything other than devious.Is he too smug, vile or petty?
Arrogance is not Jaka's style. He did lure the mercenaries to the police station, which enabled the mercenaries to kill numerous police officers, but he didn't kill any police officers himself, nor was he specifically intending on having the police officers killed, and he doesn't inflict senseless violence; it is all a means to an end. Finally, avenging one's village, and one's wife in particular, is not a particularly petty motive.Does he have any competition?
Deveraux could have been a monkey wrench in Jaka's plans had Collins listened to the former's suspicions. Payu and Long Fei do come up with a plan to eliminate the mercenaries by making a false deal to have Tian exchanged for money and freedom, and Collins was planning on killing them regardless of their sincerity or lack thereof. However, Jaka effectively manipulates all of the above characters to his own ends.Verdict?
I think we have a keeper.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 8th 2022 at 11:55:57 AM
Feels good, don't it?
Jaka.
to Plutarch and Jaka
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Have we ever discussed Colonel Mortimer from For a Few Dollars More? I'm thinking of doing an EP on him.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Ah well, here goes:
What is the work?
For a Few Dollars More is a 1965 Spaghetti Western film directed by Sergio Leone and the second in his Dollars Trilogy, which stars Clint Eastwood as The Man with No Name, known in this film as a Bounty Hunter nicknamed "Manco", or one-hand because he only uses one hand (the other holds his gun at the ready to Quick Draw). He teams up with another Bounty Hunter to take down a gang of outlaws led by the vicious Bandito El Indio (Gian Maria Volonte).
Who is the candidate and what does he do?
Colonel Douglas Mortimer (Lee Van Cleef) is an ex-Army colonel and the Bounty Hunter that Manco teams up with. Many years ago, El Indio, a vicious Bandito, raped Mortimer's sister and murdered her lover/husband, leading to her suicide. Indio then took her pocket watch; it's part of a set which Mortimer keeps on his person. Indio likes to challenge people to duels with the watch marking when the time to shoot is; since he knows when it ends and the opponent does not, he always wins. This is important.
Mortimer is introduced on a train where he stops the train at Tucamari. After interrogating the bartender for the whereabouts of an outlaw named Guy Calloway, Mortimer goes upstairs and smokes out Calloway with his "Wanted!" Poster, then (after a quick apology to a naked woman in Calloway's room) kills him with a pistol shot from across the town square. When he collects his bounty, Mortimer learns of another Bounty Hunter named "Manco" (that's The Man with No Name).
Soon after, both bounty hunters hear of El Indio's escape from prison, with a reward of $10,000. In the town of El Paso, Manco and Mortimer see four of El Indio's men at the bar, scouting out an opportunity to rob the bank; Mortimer strikes a match on the shoulder of Juan Wild (Klaus Kinski), a hunchbacked member of the gang in an attempt to provoke him, but Indio's right-hand man Nino prevents Wild from giving them away. That night, Manco and Mortimer show off their gunslinging skills and agree to team up to take down El Indio. Mortimer has Manco free one of El Indio's friends from prison to buy him passage into the gang. El Indio sends Manco and three Mooks to another bank as a decoy; Manco kills the three Mooks and meets up with Mortimer after El Indio robs the El Paso bank; Mortimer proposes that Manco tell Indio to go north; if Indio says he's going north, Manco is to warn him about ambush and suggest going south. Since they can't go west since that's where they came from, they'll go east... where Mortimer is waiting for them. As Manco leaves to meet up with Indio's gang, Mortimer shoots him in the neck to Make It Look Like a Struggle.
At the villa of Agua Calinte, Mortimer is sitting in the bar. Juan Wild the hunchback recognizes him and challenges him to a duel where Mortimer kills him. Knowing that Indio's men can't open the safe of money with dynamite, Mortimer shows his worth to Indio by cracking open the safe without locks and explosives. That night, Mortimer steals the money, re-locks the safe, and Manco manages to hide it just before being found by Indio, who has his gang beat them, having figured out that they're bounty hunters. Even later that night, Nino frees them on Indio's orders and Manco and Mortimer kill Indio's men next morning when they're sent after them, which disrupts Indio's plan because Manco and Mortimer. more skilled than Indio thought. However, Indio shoots Mortimer's gun out of his hand and forces him to listen to the music before trying to shoot him. But Manco appears with Mortimer's watch (which he stole at some point) and evens the odds by giving him his own pistol. The song ends, and Mortimer kills Indio. His revenge complete, Mortimer refuses all the money, and rides into the sunset.
Is he intelligent and charismatic?
Yes. Mortimer has been planning El Indio's death for years to take revenge and once he hears of Indio's escape, he starts making his plot, adapting his plan to information he receives (such as the Batman Gambit where Manco sends the gang to encounter Mortimer after the bank robbery). Even when he's defenseless, Mortimer doesn't break down but stands resolutely resigned to his fate until Manco arrives. Charismatic? Manco and Mortimer have a lot of respect for each other throughout the film and Mortimer is congenial with everyone else he interacts with except for targets.
Is he a bastard, but not too much?
Mortimer does have some unsavory traits; he's undoubtedly murderous (he kills six people over the course of the film), willing to rough someone up for information, and make fun of deformed people like Wild. However, he is the most sympathetic of the main characters since he isn't in it for money like Manco and simply wants revenge for the rape of his sister at Indio's hands. Plus, he only kills those who deserve it, be it killers or vicious gang members, or the monstrous El Indio.
What is his competition?
Manco, a MB for the franchise as a whole, is present, but his character is less manipulative and more "young, swaggering gunslinger"; it's Mortimer's plan they're following. El Indio is highly intelligent, but he's a Complete Monster.
Verdict?
Keep. In the end, this film is Mortimer's story of his revenge. Manco's just along as an extra gun.
Edited by k410ren on Jun 10th 2020 at 10:23:56 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Ye to Mortimer. Frankly, mocking Wild was mostly to provoke him to a fight and Wild is a murderous bandit anyways.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
don’t forget to vote for Plutarch and Jaka.
Also to Mortimer
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 5th 2019 at 3:07:33 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Mortimer.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Plutarch Heavensbee, Jaka and Colonel Douglas Mortimer.
That's a tough call...
Feels good, don't it?