During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
So it will be a pretty hard choice for Complete Monster becoming a Magnificent Bastard huh....Well there goes my hope E Ping Dakki from Houshin Engi haha
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Speaking of comic books...from the Smallville YMMV:
- Magnificent Bastard: Lionel Luthor is the Trope Codifier and one of the best examples in recent fiction. If you are a character in Smallville, you have at some point been emotionally manipulated or out-Chessmastered by Lionel. He never really loses it either, and remains a competent schemer even post-Heel–Face Turn.
- Lex slowly grows into one to rival, and then surpass, his father as his manipulative ability improves.
- Lucas, who manages to see through Lionel's blind act in less than three days, and basically constantly has the upper hand.
- Major Zod is a rare non-Luthor example. Throughout Season 9 he manipulates Clark, Tess, Lois, and the Kandorians into—intentionally or unintentionally—aiding him with his Take Over the World plot. He out gambits Checkmate, successfully regains his powers, and nearly kills Clark, with a minimum of planning, while successfully hiding his own frailties and weaknesses.
Only Lionel and Major Zod are listed on the Live-Action TV page, and they're probably the only ones who should be listed period. Lucas is a nonentity, and as for Lex...look, the show clearly meant for him to eventually surpass his father, but partly because of the writing, and partly because while Michael Rosenbaum was one of the best actors on the show, John Glover was one of the best actors on TV at the time, they were never able to shake their original dynamic, where Lex can dominate any room...until Lionel comes in and sucks out all the oxygen. This persists even after Lionel has become a good guy and Lex has become the show's main villain, and since they exit the series within a few episodes of one another, Lex never really has a chance to stop being upstaged by his father.
Of the other two...Lionel's the obvious keeper, for all the reasons I just mentioned and more. He's the Trope Codifier for MB, and while the term existed long before him, its association with him in the fandom (where he was referred to as either "The Magnificent Bastard" or "The Magnificent You-Know-What") is why the trope has the name that it does. He dominated the show in every scene he was in, and while originally intended to be little more than Lex's Freudian Excuse wound up as the show's signature bad guy, a fact that was driven home when Season 10 ground to a halt about halfway through courtesy of poor writing choices, and the way they tried to get out of it was by bringing in Lionel's alternate universe doppelganger to be the new Heavy of the season.
Major Zod...I think I wrote his entry, and I'd contend he meets most of the qualifiers, save maybe the scope of his Villainous Breakdown, which is massive. That said, he's losing his mind from fairly early on in Season 9, (which was when he first showed up) and manages to effectively manipulate most of the cast despite his growing madness. If people want I can EP him, and his future/past self General Zod.
Lionel I'd say keep without EP, he sounds too good of a match for that being needed to be bothered with. Do you mind rewriting his entry so it's similar to a CM one, maybe listing his big actions/facets of personality showing magnificence in under 300 words?
As for Zod, the Villainous Breakdown does sound a little questionable... do you mind doing an EP for that one so I can see the pros and cons to him staying?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Btw.....I actually found this on the YMMV page of the anime I used to watch..........Kindaichi Case Files:
- Magnificent Bastard: Yoichi Takato who constantly matches wits with Kindaichi.
As the frequent watcher of the show, it would be nice for me to E Ping this character as iirc and in this anime, there will be another one that I would love to EP and it will be coming soon for me.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
For a new Magnificent Bastard entry, assuming Anti-Villain characters qualify...
- (Work page) Character: (Franchise.Lupin III) Lupin Sansei
- Describe the work: The work has a core cast of five characters, four Villain Protagonist characters who generally pull off large heists with no deaths. The remaining character is a Hero Antagonist who tries to arrest the other four for their countless crimes.
- Summarize their actions: The title character is the one who plans most of the heists, doing research on the target and telling the others where they need to be to get in/out without capture. Many episodes and movies have one crime where Lupin gets outplayed, but his confidence is rarely broken, and he treats everyone he faces with a mix of arrogance and respect.
- List their improvisation: Most of the movies feature one heist where he has planned everything to the finest details, including any Batman Gambit or I Know You Know I Know to counter the Hero Antagonist's traps. If he is captured, or forced into a corner, he may display some frustration, but always finds a way to overcome said obstacles and his confidence is restored long before then.
- The competition: All five characters are hardened, facing death and ready to kill when it is needed. Lupin, however, is willing to face down other criminals armed with only a gag pistol, in order to teach his opponent what sort of risks they face on a regular basis.
edited 8th May '18 9:25:39 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Goku Black
Alright on Buffy The Vampire Slayer. This is there:
- Magnificent Bastard: Spike in Season 2 and the very end of Season 4. Ethan Rayne had a moment or two as well.
- The Master was a pretty cunning villain and he certainly had the Deadpan Snarker vibe down to a tee. He's also one of two Big Bads to cause Buffy's death, the only one to actually do it himself, and the only one to kill her twice.
- Sweet from "Once More, With Feeling". He came to town, killed a bunch of people, made the Scoobies reveal a bunch of embarrassing secrets about themselves, nearly killed Buffy and left town without getting a scratch on him. Enough said.
Uh Spike should go,he is a true Smug Snake to the point like MCU loki, he might still be an example even when he becomes a good guy.
EDIT : Cool giving a yes to the lupin
edited 8th May '18 10:13:22 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lionel can be comfortably kept without an EP, not to mention Comics!Lex and Doom.
I'll give a yea to Lupin but request you expand your EPs going forward.
Those Buffy entries are all really bad, please cut them and if you'd like any reinstated do an EP.
Now, here's the FMA page—Father and Mustang were also listed but I already took care of them:
- Magnificent Bastard: Kimblee is a dangerously intelligent opponent: he's able to make accurate deductions about the heroes plans with just a glance; knows how to take full advantage of Ed's stance on killing in combat and displays a strict, albeit twisted, code of honor, which he maintains until his death and would rather disappear forever than allow Pride to contradict his beliefs in his last moments.
He's one I'm a little on the fence about... he is rather sadistic but my recollection of Kimblee was that he was a brilliant adversary with incredible deduction abilities. The big problem is that he doesn't really have an overarching goal other than help Father because he thinks Father will... let Kimblee do his thing. Overall I think he's smart and charming but lacks the crucial element of having a big end goal. Problems with cutting?
Hilariously, I think I actually rewrote Kimblee at a time I wasn't fully analyzing this trope so yea, I dropped the ball on that one.
edited 8th May '18 10:29:46 AM by 43110
Goku Black
So moving on to the ymmv page of buffy's sister show Angel. This is there. Well at least the buffy examples seem fleshed out in comparison. 
- Magnificent Bastard:
- Holland Manners.
- Angelus is as close to this as any Complete Monster can get.
- Holtz outdoes Them both though. Lindsey and Lilah are no slouches either.
Okay. Joking aside the main page has prettty good examples for Holtz and Lilah who I do feel qualfiy and will EP.
- Angel:
- Holtz falls under this, mostly for his sheer efficiency. Jasmine spent millenia with godlike power manipulating events to come to earth, lasted less than a week, and died at the hands of her most loyal servant. Wolfram and Hart spent five seasons with nigh-limitless resources trying to corrupt Angel and all they accomplished in the end was letting him know who to kill. Meanwhile Holtz, had no powers whatsoever, was out of his own time and had no allies but those he created for himself. And in half a season he managed to convince one of Angel's closest friends to kidnap Angel's son, then escaped into a hell dimension with him, raising him to be Angel's worst enemy. Then his assisted suicide actually made things worse between them.
Angel: You took my son!Holtz: I kept your son alive. You murdered mine.
- Lilah Morgan also comes to exemplify this trope by mid-season three, having begun the series as more of a Smug Snake. The turning point is probably either "Billy", in which Lilah coldly executes the title character, or Darla's pregnancy storyline, over the course of which Lilah gets some great one-liners and becomes legitimately scary for the first time. In season four she's every inch the Magnificent Bastard, ruthlessly dispatching her former superior Linwood, leaving significant emotional scars on Wesley and ably defending herself from a rampaging Angelus. It's only the complete shock of Cordelia's possession by Jasmine that catches her in the end.
- Holtz falls under this, mostly for his sheer efficiency. Jasmine spent millenia with godlike power manipulating events to come to earth, lasted less than a week, and died at the hands of her most loyal servant. Wolfram and Hart spent five seasons with nigh-limitless resources trying to corrupt Angel and all they accomplished in the end was letting him know who to kill. Meanwhile Holtz, had no powers whatsoever, was out of his own time and had no allies but those he created for himself. And in half a season he managed to convince one of Angel's closest friends to kidnap Angel's son, then escaped into a hell dimension with him, raising him to be Angel's worst enemy. Then his assisted suicide actually made things worse between them.
Not sure on the others. so yeah thoughts on the others.
edited 8th May '18 10:40:02 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Kimblee. Love the guy, but he's not this trope. There may or may not be a reference to him being one on the CMOA page for FMA by the way; there was in the past.
Cut Angelus. Sadistic monster who is in it for the lulz. I'll provide a write-up for Major Zod at some point shortly, but before doing that I feel like we should deal with some of the comic book examples brought up last page. I know Luthor, Doom, et al, are obvious keeps, but thinking something is too obvious to discuss is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Cutting Lucas and Smallville!Lex.
Write-up for Kaz:
- Six of Crows: Villain Protagonist Kaz Brekker is a gangster, conman, bank robber, blackmailer, and all around criminal prodigy who uses his extensive knowledge of Ketterdam's secrets to shame richer and more respected men and women into helping him with his schemes. Whether its bluffing gunmen into backing down with fictitious threats against their families, arranging breakouts from the two most heavily guarded prisons in Ketterdam and Fjerda respectively, or running a con on the entire government of Ketterdam that drags in King Nikolai of Ravka as coconspirator, Kaz proves to Pekka Rollins, Jan Van Eck, and all his other competitors that he is the true kingpin of Ketterdam.
How's that look?
edited 8th May '18 11:42:55 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I like. Good job man.
Cut Kimblee, he's a great bad guy but not this trope.
edited 8th May '18 10:51:07 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Thanks. I'll wait for a few more thumbs up then add him to the pages.
Regarding the comic examples from last page, are we in agreement about who to cut? All the heroic characters are obvious cuts, but I don't think we really discussed the likes of Namor or Loki. Namor's entry, admittedly, is atrocious.
Anyway, do we want EP's for Luthor, Doom, or Kingpin? I can provide those three easily enough.
edited 8th May '18 11:00:37 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Kaz and his write-up, Keep Lionel, and though I don't know if they're NEEDED, effortposts for Luthor, Doom, and Kinpin would be welcome to me.
Alrighty, here's my first official EP for this new thread for a character that's currently "listed" as a MB, but is now officially unapproved until the thread votes on him. I don't know if the character will actually KEEP for reasons we shall see, but I'd say he's a solid first proposal. Now, he's also a CM, but before anyone insta-downvotes, I do think that, if overlap between the tropes is possible? This character comes damn close to fitting into that area. Here's his current MB entry:
- Gaku Yashiro. He is terrifying. His sadism and predatory blood-thirst is matched only by his intelligence. Cold, calculating and charismatic, he accounts for damn near everything that may or may not go wrong. He correctly deduced Satoru was interfering with his plans all along, and easily baited the boy to reveal himself as the savior of his would-be victims.
Along with the entry not actually detailing too much except one of his smarter moments, it's now unapproved. So let's talk about Gaku Yashiro.
Who is Gaku Yashiro? What makes him a candidate?
Gaku Yashiro is the main antagonist of the manga Boku Dake Ga Inai Machi, now commonly known as ERASED thanks to the hit anime series of the same name.
Yashiro grew up a hyper-intelligent child plagued with boredom and beaten on by an abusive brother. Eventually, in exchange for something exciting to happen, Yashiro began covering for his brother's Serial Rapist tendencies, despite being rather indifferent to the actual crime.
When his brother accidentally strangles a child to death, Yashiro instantly picks up on the fact that his brother plans to frame him for it. Planning ahead of this, Yashiro lures his brother to the girl's body, then somehow manages ot incapacitate and hang him, making it look like his brother committed suicide out of guilt.
Getting genuine excitement that shakes off the boredom of his life from this, Yashiro grows up and becomes a school teacher, solely to begin carrying out more exciting ventures: Becoming a Serial Killer of children.
Yashiro begins befriending his students and attempting to lure them into remote places so he may kill them with his preferred method of suffocation, however, as the kids either don't fall for his tricks or are called away at the last minute, he starts picking up tips and tricks and mentally noting them to help himself become smarter and more collected.
Eventually murdering several children, Yashiro instantly picks up on the fact that his fiance is becoming suspicious, even though she doesn't want to believe it, and flings her from a rooftop and frames it as a suicide.
Yashiro then established a pattern: Murder a handful of children in one location, expertly frame an innocent for it, and get off scott-free with his crimes.
During his killing spree in 1988 that the plot centers around, Yashiro murders two young girls, then kills one of his students, a young boy named Hiromi who is often mistaken for a girl. Yashiro does this solely because he KNOWS the police will assume the killer is some sexual sadist who murders little girls, and just confused Hiromi for a girl like so many do. Thus, it would eliminate the possibility of someone like Yashiro being the killer, because as his teacher, he would know Hiromi was a boy.
Yashiro then sneaks photographs he took of the children into a lovable idiot named Yuuki's home and frames him.
By the present, Yashiro has murdered dozens of children, and continues on, never being caught, and using a disguise to prevent suspicion. When he's spotted leading a child to his van by Sachiko, protagonist Satoru's mother, Yashiro follows her home and stabs her to death, leaving her to found by Satoru and framing the man.
Using his time travel abilities, Satoru travels his mind back to 1988 during Yashiro's killing spree, and attempts to save the three children while now in his youthful body. Though Satoru manages to prolong their deaths, Yashiro outmaneuvers the man and kills them anyway.
Back in the present, Satoru goes on the run, and meets up with his best friend Airi. Obtaining Satoru's phone, Yashiro tries to burn Airi alive in her home and further frame Satoru, ultimately getting the man arrested and freeing Yashiro for good.
Luckily, Satoru is flung back in time again, and this time manages to prevent the children's deaths.... unfortunately, Yashiro also picks up on the fact that Satoru is thwarting him, and, using his position as teacher to become Satoru's confidant, masterfully tricks the boy into believing they are chasing the killer....when in reality, Yashiro has lured him into a trap.
Noting that Satoru has earned his respect for being so smart, almost as if he came from the future (Ding!), Yashiro plunges the boy into an icy river, hoping to kill him and get away with his crimes.
Though Satoru survives and is flung into a coma, Yashiro gets bored now that his "greatest opponent" is gone, and, though seducing a woman because of her political affiliations, murdering his rivals for her affection, and then bumping off her father to gain his political position, Yashiro's murder of children is severely dampened due to him not finding it all that fun anymore.
When Satoru wakes up from his coma, Yashiro follows him and some other hospital patients on a camping trip. There, Yashiro attempts to lure young cancer patient Kumi, Satoru's new friend, to him by using Satoru's cell phone, however Satoru anticipated this and switched Kumi's cellphones... unfortunately again, this was all Yashiro's plan, as he had spiked Kumi's water bottle earlier with sleeping medicine and, knowing Satoru will expect her to be safe, instead follows her, puts her sleeping body into a slowly-sinking canoe, and sends her adrift.
Then luring Satoru to meet him on a rickety bridge, Yashiro reveals his final master stroke to be to set the bridge aflame and burn Satoru alive while he has a full view of Kumi's drowning form. However, due to Satoru's time travel powers, he reveals he already knew Yashiro's plans, and Kumi has already been rescued.
Not once losing his cool, Yashiro calmly states he refuses to be punished for his crimes, and attempts to kill himself so as to not be put in prison. Satoru luckily manages to stop Yashiro's attempt, and Yashiro is then hauled off... realizing he has been completely and utterly beaten, Yashiro simply chuckles and proceeds to confess to all of his crimes with a serene smile on his face.
What is Yashiro's competition? Does his intelligence stand out?
Very much so the smartest person in the story bar none. The only reason Yashiro is beaten is because the hero has literal time travel powers to allow him to go back again and again, and even THEN? Yashiro STILL wins every single time until the very end, when he's only beaten because of something he couldn't have predicted.
Is Yashiro a Chessmaster? Manipulative bastard? Capable of Xanatos Speed Chess?
Absolutely yes to all of the above. Yashiro's "art" takes time to perfect, but once he gets it down by practicing and practicing? He becomes one of the singular most intelligent serial killers I've seen in any media. He has backup plans galore, realizes a child is somehow thwarting him and lures said child (Actually an adult in a child's body) into a genius trap, and is an expert at reading people and noticing which children have abusive parents so he can easier pin their murders on their parents if need be.
And yes, he can think on his feet very handily. As I said, when Satoru ACTUALLY manages to thwart him in the past, Yashiro instantly picks up on it, lures Satoru into a trap, and nearly murders him all within a day's time. When Sachiko spots him luring a child to himself, Yashiro instantly realizes she might know something, murders her, and frames Satoru all within a couple hours. He then uses Satoru's manager to hunt him down, realizes Satoru has a confidant in Airi, tries to burn her alive, and gets Satoru arrested for it. Again, if Satoru didn't have literal supernatural powers? Yashiro would have won at LEAST half a dozen times over throughout the story, despite being a "normal" person.
How much of a Bastard is he? Is he charming both in-universe and out? Does he have any positive features about him worthy of respect?
This....is where the problem may lie. Yashiro is a charming fellow, right off the bat. He is an EXCELLENT play actor as both a charming, friendly, "cool" teacher, and later as a politician, and is considered by EVERY character to be a genuinely good person who just wants the best for children.
For positive traits, he has a couple that, though not disqualifying him from CM status, are somewhat respect-worthy.
He is willing to compromise his own murders of children to keep up his act, such as helping a young girl out of an abusive situation with her mother and calming said mother down before he is revealed.
When beaten, he has no villainous breakdown or any form of pissy rant. He stays completely calm, and though he tries to kill himself and Satoru, it's NOT some petty spiteful maneuver. It's simply because he doesn't believe he should be punished for just doing what he saw as "fun" and wants to maintain his pride and dignity by dying on his own accord.
And even when arrested? Yashiro simply calmly accepts his fate, confesses his crimes, and even chuckles as he realizes he has finally been outsmarted, even if only by dumb luck.
He never loses his cool at any point. Even when outsmarted at the end, even when his plans are thwarted, even in CHILDHOOD, he never gets angry, upset, or flies into a rage. He's always Faux Affably Evil and calm in a genuine way.
Yashiro also murdered his SERIOUSLY hateable Serial Rapist brother after expressing annoyance at the boy's lustful stupidity and attempts to pin it all on Yashiro.
For the final bit...Yashiro is a BASTARD. He murders children—even if in generally not TOO painful ways—just to satisfy a pathological need to alleviate boredom in his life, and he DOES take glee in his actions, even if he NEVER veers into ranting or raving about how much of a sadistic Ax-Crazy maniac he is.
So it really comes down to whether or not Yashiro is TOO much on the Bastard side because of his crimes. He's not a Smug Snake, and his personality isn't in itself hateable or despicable. The sole thing that might keep him out of this trope is that his "schtick" is that he's a serial killer of dozens of children because It Amused Me.
Final Verdict?
Yashiro is one of the most charming, intelligent, and yet still evil villains I've seen in manga. As I said before, if CM and MB can overlap? Yashiro is one of the closest examples one can get. I'm on the fence at the moment, but slightly leaning towards him being one just because of how utterly charming he is and the fact that he never ONCE loses his cool or gets upset or anything, even when beaten. But I'm not too headset on him considering I know he's awful vile, so I'll leave it up to the thread.
Thoughts?
edited 8th May '18 1:54:54 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I’m gonna say Yashiro just makes it, the fact he’s not a rapist like his brother is what saves him from being too detestable for me. Wonderful overlap between this and CM. Excellent job, Ravok.
edited 8th May '18 2:23:28 PM by 43110
While I would not be upset if you didn't do an EP for Lex of Doom, by all means go ahead. No harm in it. I think Kingpin would be a decent one to do, if only because I'm interested in seeing what he's done.
As for Namor, who has Bastard qualities, he might be another to look at more closely.
EDIT: ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Yashiro. Hot take: An MB is harder to write than a CM.
edited 8th May '18 11:13:45 AM by PolarPhantom
Goku Black
Ill give a yeah to Yashiro. Though his MB entry is barebones, so could do with some sprucing.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
From Elfen Lied:
- Magnificent Bastard: Manga only. Director Kakuzawa practically has everything fall into his hands, has people dance in the palm of his hands and almost always has a stoic face and lets little bother him. He's practically a textbook example of what a good corporate villain might be like and one can't deny that he's got some style. Whether it’s using his own employees like pawns, firing off vector virus missiles or having a second diclonius son at the ready, he seems prepared for anything.
I think that he was, well, hateable to get this trope? Dunno, I dont know the series but he seem way too awful and personally hateable to be "Magnificent".
edited 8th May '18 11:17:57 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Regarding where MB and CM can crossover...was talking about this with my fiancee (Sophia Lonesoul) and she observed that the most likely times you'll see crossover are when the character's CM status is secondary, not primary. In short, when it's only after looking over the long, long list of what the character has done that you realize, oh, right, he is a monster. She made reference to Hans Gruber and Beast Wars!Megatron specifically, but I think it holds up across most possible crossover examples.
Basically, if your first reaction to the character is "what a psycho" he probably doesn't qualify for MB. If you're slightly surprised when you realize he can qualify for CM, he might qualify here.
edited 8th May '18 11:25:46 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Ambar I agree with both of you there and Ravok do you mind making a new writeup for Yashiro? Ambar did a good job with Kaz so a nice summary like that would be most excellent.
On that note would folks like if I set up a drafts page for this like ACW did for CM?
Goku Black
That would be nice.
So uh I was meaning to ask would you be fine with letting in incarnations of guys like The master and blofeld. Well technically the same guy, each actor who plays them protrays them in there own unique way, so judging each version on there own might be a good idea.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Could not hurt.
I would also suggest Kazuya is right to look askance at that Elfen Lied entry.
edited 8th May '18 11:39:18 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Hmm... I think I would say yes for The Master, as I believe—correct me if I'm wrong—Time Lords have changes to their personality from life to life. I myself am inclined to say yes to Blofeld but that one I'd like to hear the opinions of others since the universe does technically treat them as the same character.
Edit: Now, Elfen Lied, it's been a long time since I read that one but I think the Director indeed was made to be a Hate Sink and despite coming from a group of oppressed people, felt he and his clan were genetically superior and should rule the Earth. I vouch cut.
Edit edit: Drafts page set up and requested the mods lock the main pages to smooth out the process. Welcome Kaz, you are number one to the new page.
edited 8th May '18 11:46:04 AM by 43110
Added Kaz. And man oh man is the literature page going to need scrubbing. Half the characters in ASOIAF seem to be listed, as are child eating abominations like Pennywise from IT, etc.
Goku Black
Remove Kakuzawa. He's not a CM but not he's not this either:
Adding charcters who dont fit and should be cut: Junko Enoshima / The mastermind from Dangan Ronpa. Shes way too sadistic and unhinged for an MB trope to the point even the entry know this.
Magnificent Bastard: The Mastermind, if her regular Moral Event Horizon crossing doesn't turn you off of the idea (and she may be a little too unstable to truly count.) She has the cast wrapped around her finger almost from beginning to end. Even all the moments where the cast thinks they've got the leg up on her, she knows what they're doing the whole time, and it's all according to plan (when she wants to follow the plan herself, at least.) The only reason she doesn't get away with everything she's doing is because Makoto is practically hope personified, compared to Junko's status as despair personified. Even her defeat is a victory for her because even though she's unable to sink the entire world into despair, she can just savor all that despair herself.
edited 8th May '18 11:47:29 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
That one for Voldemort reads like some of the early bad CM entries that acknowledged a character has redeeming features. Burn it.
Regarding the comic entries...do we want effort posts for the likes of Luthor and Doom? I can provide them, though I'll feel slightly silly doing so. Also, I'm pretty sure that entry for the Kingpin is mine, so if it needs improvement I can provide it (I kept it short because the other entries on the page were of similar length).
edited 8th May '18 8:28:41 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar