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I'm not sure if that should completely disqualify someone. Sasuke Uchiha from Naruto and Bakugou Katsuki from My Hero Academia are both characters who are consistently popular but also have enough detractors that I don't think it can be brushed off as a Vocal Minority.
Tharja isn't a hill I want to die on though.
I'm not even sure those characters have enough detractors to not be the Vocal Minority. I've mentioned it before, but just because an Internet community is very vocal about their hatred toward a character doesn't actually mean they make up a huge portion of the fanbase, especially if the work in question has millions of fans.
I mean, I'm well aware that Sasuke Uchiha is not liked by many on this site. However, TV Tropes is hardly representative of the Naruto fanbase as a whole, so I wouldn't take the sizeable amount of haters here as proof that the entire fandom (Western and Eastern combined) is split on the character with little to no middle ground.
(I apologize in advance if this comes across as confrontational. That is not my intention. I'm just trying to clear up what the criteria for Base-Breaking Character is or isn't.)
I don't understand why a character ranking high on a popularity poll is evidence against someone having a large amount of detractors. Base-Breaking Character is by definition a character with many fans, along with detractors.
From what I understand you seem to be asking for some sort of "objective proof" that characters have a large hatedom among the fanbase in order to qualify as Base Breaking Characters and that certain negative opinions are not just from a Vocal Minority. But the thing is, it's nearly impossible to find that sort of thing. Series creators almost never run any "unpopularity" polls. And if can't trust internet communities to represent a fanbase, than who can we trust?
Let's take Sasuke from Naruto for example (since you brought him up). I have been in and out of the Naruto fandom for over a decade, and every time in every community and every forum that I have been to he has had a very large and vocal amount detractors, while still having many fans, and he is the source of many heated arguments. He is absolutely, unquestionably, a Base-Breaking Character (heck, he was even pictured on the trope's main page at one point). And I'm sure that anyone else who has had any experience with the Naruto will agree. But how can I possibly back that up with hard evidence?
You say that Tvtropes does not represent the Naruto fanbase as a whole, and that's true, but large internet communities rarely vary in opinion that heavily (unless they have some sort of bias for/against the subject matter, or revolve around accentuating the negative, or vice versa). If many people on the site don't like him, odds are many people off the site don't like him either. I think the same sentiment can be said about other characters. I understand the need for skepticism, but we can't just brush off negative opinions with "Maybe it's just a Vocal Minority "
@The Fire Emblem thing.
I think Tharja still qualifies as a Base-Breaking Character . She might get less hate than Camilla, but she still has plenty of people who hate her for similar reasons (along with her relationship with her daughter). At the same time, she's an extremely popular character with many fans.
edited 11th Apr '18 6:45:56 PM by mrbits
Honestly, I wouldn't trust any Internet community to accurately represent any fanbase.
Apologies for people who have heard this before, but let me use Fire Emblem again as an example. The most well-known Western community, Serenes Forest, currently has 31,422 members as of this writing. Now, let's assume that Fire Emblem has at least 2,100,000 fans (using the total number of physical units sold for Fire Emblem Awakening, based on this site). This means that Serenes Forest only makes up less than 1.5% of the entire fanbase. Hardly enough to fit the definition of "half of the fanbase is split on this character."
Also, saying that you have found every community and every forum you've visited to hate a character is still just anecdotal evidence. And it doesn't prove something crucial for a Base-Breaking Character: the lack of very few or no middle ground.
Popularity polls don't tell us how many people hate or don't have particularly strong feelings toward a character. However, a character that consistently scores high on popularity polls is more likely than not to not be a Base-Breaking Character. That's why more concrete evidence is needed; to make sure that it really is a case of "the fanbase is split on this character with little to no middle ground" and not "someone is using this audience reaction to stealth-whine about a character they don't like."
If we can't trust internet communities, then what do we trust?
If we're just going to write off the collective opinions of Tvtropes, Youtube, Tumblr, Reddit, and specialized websites like Serenes Forest (by the way, they aren't the largest community. r/fireemblem has 77,091 subscribers) because everyone who never uses those sites might not care, then what's the point?
I didn't say that every community I went to hated Sasuke. I said that every community had people that hated him, along with people who loved him. And that they would frequently argue about his overall quality. You are right that I didn't prove that there was a lack of middle ground, but that's my entire issue. How do you provide concrete evidence towards a lack of middle ground? You can't do that in most cases, because under normal circumstances nobody is ever going to ask things like "Who is completely indifferent and neutral about Sasuke and why?"
The best you can do is just measure the frequency and intensity of both sides and their arguments.
I'm curious. Who would you consider consider a clear-cut example of a Base-Breaking Character, and how can you be sure that there is no middle ground regarding them?
edited 11th Apr '18 9:25:16 PM by mrbits
The number of things I would trust internet communities with is very, very little.
Also, taking that number of subscribers to the Fire Emblem reddit, that would make them...less than 3.6% of the entire fanbase (even without taking into account any overlaps with other communities).
Frequency and intensity doesn't tell you if a character is a Base-Breaking Character; all it tells you is how loud a certain part of a fanbase is. Again, a few thousand really whiny people doesn't really matter much when the fandom consists of millions.
For your question on who I consider a clear-cut example, I have my doubts that there actually are any clear-cut examples. I've certainly never seen one. There's a reason why I don't add examples of Base-Breaking Character, precisely because it's very difficult to actually tell who is one, what with things to consider such as Silent Majority and Vocal Minority.
I'll be honest with you; I feel like for audience reactions like Base-Breaking Character and The Scrappy, any informative benefits they might've had have been completely lost due to tropers using them as a way to whine about characters they don't like. I'd rather they not be allowed on any YMMV page since they're basically complaint magnets, but I doubt it'll ever become that way. Best thing we can do is make sure that the bad examples get taken down, especially if it's clear that people are using them as a way to wonk and get around the "no whining on the wiki" rule, but honestly I don't see any value in them whatsoever other than just serving as a definition page with no examples.
Though I will admit, Base-Breaking Character is kind of funny sometimes when someone adds a "there's a third party that doesn't care" and completely invalidates the example.
edited 11th Apr '18 10:07:21 PM by dragonfire5000
The sad thing is that Base-Breaking Character by definition isn't a negative audience reaction. It's just used so damn often for stealth complaining.
Just found this one on Persona 2.
Cut it. Not only does it seem like something written for The Scrappy, but it's also complaining.
This Sui-Feng entry was added to the YMMV.Bleach page without coming through this thread.
Does it apply?
Note: A Sui-Feng entry was previously removed (see the previous page), but the content was completely different. In my view this is a brand new entry, not an attempt to readd something that was removed.
Found this on The Rise of Darth Vulcan:
That entry seems to be split into four opinions, a side that loves him, a side that hates him, a Misaimed Fandom, and those who think They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character. You could probably keep the first two groups and move the others to their own subsections and not miss much. Then again, I have no experience with MLP or their fanfics.
I also didn't get much feedback from when I brought up the entries for the SCP Foundation a while ago. I though I'd get some hard numbers and tallied up the score for each SCP to see how their articles were received on the site. Users can vote an article up or down and the difference between these determines an entry's final score. I found that the only real Base Breaking SCP was SCP-579, which had a 58%-42% upvote-downvote range.
I didn't post include the entries themselves the last time I brought them up, so I figured I might as well do it now so you can all judge for yourselves.
edited 7th May '18 9:12:34 PM by chasemaddigan
Honestly, I have trouble believing most of those were even added by someone who thought they were widespread disputes - as opposed to simply their own gripes disguised.
"silly article that's incredibly silly." Wow
The SCP stuff is a matter of differing opinions, not widespread base-breaking wars. Then again, thinking minor things are important and significant seems to be a running theme for that site.
From YMMV.Sister Claire
BaseBreakingCharacter.Steven Universe could use a rework and a major update:
It should never say "as detailed above", since all examples, no exceptions, should be self-contained.
The self-contained rule is also why no examples should be spread over several bullets.
Anyway, I'm not familiar with either series, but I'll see if I can look through those later on.
So, anyway, some opinions. I'll reiterate that it's only based on what's written; I have no prior knowledge of the characters. I have heard some things about the fandom, though.
Those are sparse in context, but what's there seems correct, assuming it's somewhat representative of the fandom. Those details about Oscar need to be written into that example.
edited 10th May '18 12:21:00 AM by AnotherDuck
I trimmed most of the SCP examples, namely cutting those that were considered some of the highest rated SCPs on the website. I left a link to the thread in my edit reason in case anyone else wanted to dispute my removals.
edited 9th May '18 9:09:00 PM by chasemaddigan
Regarding the Oscar example, I should mention 1) at least one of the other examples it refers to (Creator's Pet) I had to pull for misuse 2) the "supplanting the protagonist" part is untrue for the comic itself. (The story is told through a comic [present day] and prose [past]) Oscar does get tons of focus in the prose, but the prose largely takes place before Claire was born, so she wouldn't have been protagonist for it anyway.
edited 9th May '18 9:10:10 PM by Twiddler
I'm just going to point out that every single main character in is listed under BaseBreakingCharacter.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic.
I will say Pearl is divisive, but after a recent episode I think we're going to need to wait and see what the fandom's consensus becomes on her. This episode also effects the Rose Quartz entry so I think we'll need to come back to both of those within a few months and see if the fandom stabilizes around one opinion or stays broken.
Considering that fanbase, I'm not surprised in the least. I don't think any of the main ones qualify from what I've heard. Opinions are far too spread out.
The Chain Chomp is also under Ensemble Dark Horse.
As for the SU examples, I might delete Pearl because her entry is a giant Wall of Text. I'm definitely deleting Amethyst's, Steven's, Ronaldo's, and Bismuth's entries, and condensing Jasper's entry into a single bullet. I'm probably gonna leave Lars' and Andy's entries alone, though I'm not entirely sure about it, as (to my knowledge) Lars' reception has become a lot more positive following "Wanted" and "Lars of the Stars", and Andy's entry seems a bit too politically based, though that's just me.
edited 15th May '18 5:17:43 AM by Crossover-Enthusiast
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