Condemned by History cleanup thread

I can see how the creator's work could be in scope, I'm still not sure about the person themselves?

Anyway, from the trope page:

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• Back in the 2000s, Butch Hartman was one of the most celebrated creators in the history of Nickelodeon for his work on The Fairly OddParents! and Danny Phantom, the former for its zany comedy and creative premise that consistently rivaled SpongeBob SquarePants in ratings, while the latter was the first Nicktoon to have any form of serialized storytelling, paving the way for shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2012). However, Hartman's popularity would undergo a gradual decline in the 2010s, starting with the middling reception of T.U.F.F. Puppy, The Fairly OddParents! sinking into further depths of Seasonal Rot after it already showed signs in the late 2000s, and the critical indifference of Bunsen Is a Beast, which would culminate in his departure from Nick in 2018.
  
  Later that year, Hartman would fund a Kickstarter for a streaming service called OAXIS Entertainment, which on the surface was a streaming service designed to provide family-friendly programming. However, OAXIS would later gain scrutiny for its lack of updates, as well as the revelation that all the programming would be pushing a Christian agenda, something that wasn't communicated during the Kickstarter campaign. Combined with reports of unpaid royalties and a number of scandals surrounding Hartman's social media presence (such as tracing artwork in paid art commissions), and many fans turned their backs on Hartman. The early success of The Fairly OddParents! and Danny Phantom is now being credited to Steve Marmel, a writer and producer on both shows who left Nickelodeon around the time the two shows began suffering Seasonal Rot. As for Hartman, the controversies around his Kickstarter and social media presence, dwindling reputation, and bad word-of-mouth among animation studios means that his success is unlikely to ever return.
• John Kricfalusi made a name for himself with The Ren & Stimpy Show, the last of three animated series that kickstarted the Nicktoons franchise, heralded a wave of creator-driven cartoons during The '90s, and codified the Gross-Out Show. However, Kricfalusi was notoriously hard to work with and turned in multiple episodes late due to his extreme perfectionism; the final straw came when Kricfalusi sent a Strongly Worded Letter to Nickelodeon declaring that episodes would take as long and cost as much as he wanted, leading Nickelodeon to dismiss him and his studio Spümcø from the show. Despite this, Kricfalusi remained highly esteemed and very active throughout the '90s.
  
  Over a decade later, Kricfalusi returned to his smash hit with Ren & Stimpy "Adult Party Cartoon", whose negative reception killed Spike TV's animation block in just a few months and led to the downfall of gross-out cartoons; Carbunkle Cartoons sued Spümcø into bankruptcy, and by the late 2000s, Kricfalusi was relegated to odd jobs such as music videos and bumpers, as well as running his blog, John K. Stuff. The negative rumors about his work ethic were confirmed in 2013, when the tell-all book Sick Little Monkeys detailed the behind-the-scenes issues and other problems with Kricfalusi himself, and the disastrous production of the crowdfunded indie short Cans Without Labels further proved said rumors.
  
  Then, in 2018, a Buzzfeed News article exposed Kricfalusi as a sexual predator who had groomed two underaged girls after he was fired from Ren & Stimpy, and harassed female staffers of Adult Party Cartoon. Nickelodeon temporarily wiped all traces of Ren & Stimpy, which was now heavily associated with Kricfalusi's sordid history. The following year, Cans Without Labels finally released, and was widely seen as not worth the wait. Kricfalusi retired from animation in 2020, cementing him as a disgraced artist among animators and fans. That year, Comedy Central announced a Ren & Stimpy reboot, specifically mentioning that Kricfalusi would not be involved in any capacity, and even then, observers were wary. Kricfalusi's toxic reputation has made it highly unlikely for him to ever see any reappraisal, and Ren & Stimpy fans now see prominent staffer Bob Camp as the true creator of the show and characters.

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So how much of that is this trope, with works that were popular now being dismissed retrospectively? And how much is Overshadowed by Controversy and Role-Ending Misdemeanor that doesn't scupper the early work?

If Ren & Stimpy still has a fandom that prefers to see Camp as the true creator, that feels like a different thing.

Likewise, if Cans Without Labels, Tuff Puppy etc. were disappointing follow-ups, or later seasons of successful series got Seasonal Rot... is that really CBH?

Hartman and Kricfalusi are interesting situations because while their early work is still beloved, fans nowadays credit them to other figures in a My Real Daddy situation. Maybe these can be merged with the writeups on Fallen Creator?

Be kind.

What is the consensus on GeoCities and MySpace?

pee pee poo poo

I'd say those 2 aren't condemned as people are nostalgic for them and miss them. They just became outdated over time, but they aren't loathed today.

Hartman and Krisfaluci look very much like Fallen Creator. Also, wow those are some walls of text.

Ukrainian Red Cross

RE:#3021 from Bocchi The Rock: "4kids-style censored dubs" might be too general and nebulous for the standards of the page. There's also still controversy over how English translations of Japanese media are handled, though it's more concentrated on video game localizations and wrapped up in plenty of culture war rhetoric over "wokeness" and all that.

Fallen Creator is a very beefy Darth Wiki page that's styled much like a main page. Does it have rules and regulations like So Bad, It's Horrible does?

This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)

Late chiming in about this but I would also advocate cutting 4kids on the basis that Monsund lays out. While there is a consensus that eventually their dubs did go bad and the last two seasons of TMNT post-lost season weren't that good. A lot of their earlier dubs and their crossover events have aged well nostaligia wise and produced memes despite facing strident criticism from a Vocal Minority and even their biggest blunder in One Piece was seen to be not entirely their fault given that it was forced on them.

At most 4kids is a Fallen Creator, but that just means that their earlier works are still held in well regard.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 7th 2023 at 7:39:59 AM

Worth noting Hartman and Kricfalusi have now been cut by Trevor 807.

With apologies for the double-post, from the ComicBook subpage we have:

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• For decades, Bob Kane was viewed as one of the founding fathers of DC Comics, being widely recognized as the original creator of Batman, and enjoying a long career as a writer on the book up until his departure from the company in 1966, with his name so synonymous with the franchise that entire characters were named in reference to him. However, it was always an open secret in the industry that Kane was reliant on ghost-writers, and after his death it became widely known that he in fact had a smaller role in the creation of Batman than previously believed, having only coined the name and penciling the comic, and virtually everything people recognized from the character came from the uncredited Bill Finger. Kane would draw, Bill would write; while it was only Kane who would show Batman to publishers. Kane had continually denied and downplayed the involvement of well past the latter's death in 1974, only coming clean a few years before his own death in 1998. Additional research discovered that what little actual writing Kane had done himself was in fact heavily plagiarised from contemporary pulp media of the time, and that he had gone so far as to throw Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster under the bus when they tried to secure a better contract with DC, then lied about his own age just to get one himself. While Kane's name is still listed in the credits of all Batman media for legal reasons, he is also viewed as the man who for all intents-&-purposes stole the credit for creating Batman while leaving everyone else, especially Bill Finger, in the dust; with some comic historians even viewing him as a fraud and all-around scumbag. And as of 2015, Finger's name has been added, in spite of him never being listed as such in the original work.

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So... he lied, he did some very dubious stuff to exaggerate his role on Batman and some of the early Batman stuff was plagiarised. None of that's good, but...

Batman is definitely still popular. Early Kane/Finger Batman is dated in style, but still popular with fans. And no other works are mentioned.

Another case where it's closer to Fallen Creator?

Fallen Creator is locked, meaning any changes will need to be requested through the Locked Pages thread. I too believe John K and Hartman belong on Fallen Creator, but somebody would have to draft the text before taking it to the thread cuz the mods won't accept the request if they don't know what to type out.

This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)

John K is already there, though Butch Hartman is not

Image Pickin' Backlog

A thought just occurred to me - I wasn't around when it was there, but could Troper Tales be an example of Condemned by History for This Very Wiki? There used to be pages and pages of it, but eventually they got purged as they became creepy and inappropriate. While I've seen offsite commenters dislike certain changes this website has made, no one seems to miss Troper Tales, and everyone agrees that nuking it was a good thing.

Image Pickin' Backlog

I'm pretty sure we don't want to even acknowledge Troper Tales, even if it's to discuss how much they sucked.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I don't think it's against the site's rules to bring it up (WhyFandomCantHaveNiceThings.TV Tropes has an example that mentions it) but yeah, I'd say it's better to just not mention it that much. The only people who care about Troper Tales have other ways they can talk about it, and we don't need to bring in any offsite drama as a result.

Troper tales were always controversial. They were given their own tab to stop editors from putting personal anecdotes on the main page, but from very early on there were calls to cut them. They obviously had a dedicated fandom, but also plenty of detractors.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Don't you think it's alright if Jimmy Savile, Bill Cosby, and Rolf Harris get moved to Fallen Creator?

Edited by kokoroanime on Sep 9th 2023 at 12:59:57 PM

Sounds right for Savile. His work's been pulled entirely, as far as I know.

I'd tend to say the same for the other two as well, but open to other views.

Rolf Harris doesn't have his page yet but if he does then his page should would be locked.

Savile became fallen a year after his death while Harris did when he was alive.

Edited by kokoroanime on Sep 9th 2023 at 6:21:21 AM

Found this in the Live-Action TV page:

• 1st and Ten was one of cable television's (in general) first attempts to lure the lucrative sitcom audience away from the "Big Three" (ABC, CBS, and NBC), by taking advantage of their freedom to include occasional cursing and nudity. It ran for six seasons on HBO for a total of 80 episodes. While the complete series was released on DVD in 2006, the majority of episodes on the "Complete Collection" DVD are the bowdlerized syndicated versions. To add insult to injury, the series has been excluded from the streaming video platforms HBO Go and HBO Max (since HBO themselves didn't produce it, the Kushner-Locke Company did). Besides having some dialog and scenes edited for content, syndication versions ran for 22 minutes (as opposed to 30 minutes on HBO), and included a laugh track. While 1st and Ten was novel for its time (even though the language could nonetheless still be considered 'HBO-ish', it wasn't excessively vulgar) when compared to sitcoms on broadcast network television, it seems rather cheesy (with its pretty awful acting, cliched dialogue, continuity catastrophes, editing errors, and an off-and-on laugh track) in a modern context; its attempt at Cerebus Syndrome in the second season onward also drew criticism, to the point "1st and Ten Syndrome" was for a time a trope on this wiki meaning "Cerebus Syndrome Gone Horribly Wrong". The participation of O. J. Simpson most certainly didn't help its long-term legacy either.

This...doesn't really make sense? It just talks about how the rereleases were victims of bad editing that made it harder for newer viewers to see what made it so special especially compared to other shows of the time along with how its novel qualities are now passe but doesn't speak about if it makes it outright hated. Unless this is worded better I wonder if this can be cut since it seems more like Seinfeld Is Unfunny with maybe some Overshadowed by Controversy with regards to O.J.'s appearances.

Edited by ITTrpr20 on Sep 12th 2023 at 8:36:40 AM

It seems to say its perception has suffered because it isn't available in the original form, but that's not CBH stuff. I agree with cutting.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

Yeah, I cut that section out. I agree that the 1st and Ten example boils down to discussing how all the modern releases had poor editing, and I also agree it's closer to Seinfeld Is Unfunny.

I remember a while ago we disucssed adding The Blind Side, did we ever reach a consensus on adding it? If yes then do we put it under the film or book section? Both have been condemned for the same reason (White Savior narrative and Micheal Oher was never actually adopted by the Tuhoys)

The story has always been criticized for it’s white savior narrative. The knowledge of Micheal Oher being taken advantage of by the Tuhoys just brought the criticisms to the forefront.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Sep 13th 2023 at 4:48:24 AM

Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?

So no to including it?