Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

Right, unless those characters are more minor than the other Love Interests or have people wanting to date them because they're popular despite being minor.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

So in Wide-Open Sandbox where a character's importance depends on how much the player choose to spend time with them don't count right?

And what about characters who are newly introduced and immediately becomes more popular than the others? Can they be listed even though we don't know how important they are going to be, plot wise, or if they're popularity will last.

Edited by Adept on Dec 13th 2019 at 11:25:49 PM

Then there's no darkhorse.

Can I get an answer to this, please?

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢

I don't think there's a specific waiting period, but pre-release examples have been removed in the past since it's impossible to judge how important a character will be unless we have access to the whole work.

However, the reason Broken Base and Base-Breaking Character have waiting periods is because they're about fandom conflict and we need to be sure there's actually a conflict. I don't see why we'd need to wait so long to see if people like a minor character a lot.

My bad, fixed.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 13th 2019 at 9:20:48 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Consensus. Also, you linked to the Base-Breaking Character twice.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!

From Sonic Storybook Series,

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • The Knights of the Round Table, aka Shadow, Knuckles, and Blaze. Along with having cool swords, armor, and chivalrous personalities, they have some very hammy dialogue. It helps that they're all popular characters to begin with, and are later made playable, something rare in newer Sonic titles.
  • Darkspine Sonic from the final battle is a very popular form, similarly to Dark Super Sonic.

Transformations don't count as darkhorses, right? Then it shall be cut, but what about the knights of the round table?

For that matter, how should I edit Dark Sonic in Sonic X? He appears for a minute in one episode of Season 3, but is just Sonic with a new transformation, so it can't count as a darkhorse. Neither does Nazo, who according to Word of God, is just a scrapped Super Sonic design. One-Scene Wonder?

Edited by Tomodachi on Dec 14th 2019 at 11:03:25 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

Yea, One-Scene Wonder fits. I don't know any other item that would.

Another Sonic example incoming:

Ensemble Dark Horse:

• Blaze is this in terms of gameplay, with people claiming that she handles way better than everyone and that she runs much faster than Sonic. Unfortunately, you only get to take control of her three times.
• Omega was appreciated for a time because of just how much he can break the game when he’s playable.
• Of the characters introduced in the game, Mephiles was incredibly well-received.

Both Blaze and Omega weren't introduced in Sonic 06. Neither were the Knights mentioned above in Black Knight. Do gameplay examples even count? Although the Mephiles example can stay, it needs rewriting to explain why he's well liked.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 17th 2019 at 1:55:26 PM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

I don't think Mephiles counts as a darkhorse, he's the main antagonist if my facts are right

—signature not found—

Mephiles is the Big Bad, he can't count. We can mention Evil Is Cool for him, though.

Blaze and Omega in 06 are very minor characters though. While Blaze is the co-protagonist of the Rush games, Omega has always been a minor character, with his biggest appearance being Heroes, everything else he is a minor or optional character.

Edited by Tomodachi on Dec 18th 2019 at 6:52:07 AM

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

I assumed he counted because he played a minor role in the franchise, only appearing in one game.

I really do think we should keep Ensemble dark horses to their introductory game though. Plus I don’t think “from a gameplay perspective” should count. It says nothing about their character and what their role is in the story. (Blaze in particular has been reduced to a Flat Character here.)

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 18th 2019 at 11:56:58 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Fair enough.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

High Crate's (completely valid) point here about the popularity of minor characters who do not make up a show's ensemble not counting for this trope made me wonder about the examples in WebAnimation.RWBY.

Disclaimer: these examples have been agreed through discussion in the past on the YMMV.RWBY discussion page. As a result, they do have fandom consensus for being listed under the trope. However, the issue of whether or not they classify as members of the show's ensemble has never been discussed. I'm not even sure it occurred to any of us to look at it from that perspective despite the blatantly obvious use of the word 'ensemble' in the trope name.

As a result, I just want to run three of them by this thread to see if they're okay or whether they run into the 'ensemble' issue. I think at least one of them might be (the lieutenant), but I'm not sure about the other two (Perry and the pilot).

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Perry is a small, slim member of the White Fang who stood out to the fandom immediately. He wears small, round, bookish glasses over his mask which causes the fandom much hilarity. When he speaks, he's extremely polite and posh in manner. Both aspects are completely at odds with the terrorist work the White Fang is doing, and the over-excited behavior of his boss, Roman.
    • Need help with this one: he appears to be a background character when the heroes infiltrate the recruitment meeting. He's later seen during the season climax as one of the fully integrated terrorists receiving orders off the villain. He even has a name. But you can probably count the number of episodes, scenes and lines of dialogue he has in the show on one hand and there's a question over whether he's less a character and more of a device used to highlight Roman's personality.
  • The White Fang Lieutenant is first introduced as an announcer for Roman at the White Fang gathering, where Roman promptly steals the show. He made a surprising appearance later as a hulking man who drags his chainsaw blade through the ground as he walks, and who relishes the chance to kill a Schnee when faced with Weiss as his opponent. While he does has a mask that is unusually patterned for the White Fang's plain white Grimm masks, it's only after his fight with Weiss where he beat her down and apparently forced Blake to flee that he's presented as Adam's lieutenant.
    • I think this one counts as very minor ensemble. He's only in a couple of episodes and only for a couple of scenes, but becomes an opponent for one of the heroes to fight during the season 2 climax. He's never seen again after that fight except for a single flashback scene taking orders from Adam.
  • Thanks to the RWBY Character Status Charts, the nameless Atlas pilot who flies Weiss from Atlas to Mistral was picked up by the FNDM despite his short appearance. He was christened Pilotboi and managed to win one of /r/RWBY's character tournaments.
    • Similar problem to the Perry example: he's in probably 2-3 episodes for only a couple of scenes, existing solely to get one of the heroes from Location A to Location B. He therefore does have dialogue with the hero he's carrying and does some Han Solo flying for the hero to have an aerial battle with an Animalistic Abomination, but is killed off (as a consequence of that aerial battle) as soon as the hero reaches the location the plot needs her to be at. He has the same device-or-character issue as Perry as his purpose is to get a hero to a specific location and give her something to do while she's travelling there.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 20th 2019 at 6:11:36 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I have been reading Yu-Gi-Oh! Card Game and I am pretty sure almost every single example listed there is invalid. I just want to make sure these are misuse before I do anything drastic:

• Jinzo: Card that was heavily advertised by the anime. Its popularity was to be expected.
• Gemini Elf, Tour Guide From the Underworld, Performapal Skullcrobat Joker, Vennominnaga: Cards that were notoriously powerful when they were originally released. Their popularity is unsurprising.
• Level 4 Normal monsters: Violates Examples Are Not General and is a Zero-Context Example.
• Charmers, Noble Knights, Gravekeepers, Madolches, Kuribohs, Ultra Athletes, Pendulum Magicians, Toons, Chaos Dragons, Traptrix, Shaddolls, Trains, Paleozoics, Zefras, Ancient Gears, the Six Samurai, Burning Abyss, Sacred Beasts: These are groups, not individual characters.
• Skull Servant: Minor character who became prominent, making it a Breakout Character.
• Kaiser Seahorse: The entry itself notes that the card only has a minor following.
• Poki Draco, Performapal Friendonkey, Witchcraft Master Verre: I think these can stay.

Bringing up these examples from YMMV.Legion Of Super Heroes:

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Gates' first appearance was as part of a Failed Draftees Montage; he was brought back to join the team, and became a popular member.
  • XS and Kinetix are two of the most popular Postboot characters, to the point that any fan who wants a sketch of the latter will get one from Jeff Moy.
  • Wildfire; brought back from the dead (originally was supposed to have been a one-shot character) twice due to fan response (the second time, the first issue after the writers who dropped a bridge on him left the book).
  • Also Shvaughn Erin, Dawnstar, Dream Girl, V4 Matter-Eater Lad and Shrinking Violet.

Edited by Anddrix on Jan 19th 2020 at 2:45:22 PM

Yesterday I deleted the following examples from Birds of Prey (2020), under the reasoning that Huntress is still one of the main characters of the movie and Roman Sionis is the film's Big Bad, and therefore don't qualify as minor characters:

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Huntress has the least screen time of the Birds, but she has become the most popular of them, causing many to demand a standalone Huntress film.
  • Likewise many fans and critics have praised Ewan McGregor's interpretation as the villainous Roman Sionis, calling him one of the best parts of the movie, even though he has relatively little screen time and dies at the end, eliminating any possibility of more of him.

Since then the entries have been restored by one troper with the following edit reason:

So do they qualify or not?

From YMMV/Persona 2:

• For being the Sixth Ranger of Innocent Sin with the least amount of screentime, Jun Kurosu is beloved for his plot-relevance, depth of character, and for being the first and only same-sex romance option in the entire series. That he's also the only Big Bad in the series to actually atone for his actions has also done its part to bolster his reputation.
• Bizarrely enough, Hitler gets this treatment simply due to the sheer audacity of making Hitler a villain in a JRPG even if he's actually just Nyarlathotep in disguise. And when the PSP rerelease gave him a pair of Cool Shades and renamed him to "Fuhrer" in a half-hearted censorship attempt, it made fans love him even more. The fact that he actually has a pretty memorable boss theme helps as well.

Since Jun is a party member I reckon he's safe to cut, but I'm unsure if Hitler counts but I assume he does since the Big Bad can't be an Ensemble Dark Horse and Hitler is actually Nyarlathotep.

I'm illiterate. Superman 64 has a better characters than The Last of Us Part II.

They are promoted as main characters, so no, they don't count as darkhorses.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

YMMV.Half Life

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • People really like Adrian Shephard, to the point where Valve may bring him back, as most fans seem to believe he's always behind Gordon.
  • Also, DOG. Valve responded to his popularity by giving him a major role in the intro of Episode One.
  • Barney, to an extent. People have shown to be really concerned about where he is in Episode Two.
  • And, of course, the G-Man himself has gained quite a bit of popularity, especially through Garry's Mod.
  • The All-Knowing Vortigaunt and the Nihilanth, simply because people love speculating about what they're telling you.

Shepard and Barney are the main characters of Opposing Force and Blue Shift respectively, so those are cuts. Not sure if G-Man qualifies since he has a major role in the story, but appears sparatically though cameos and some cutscenes. Nihilanth is the main villain of Half-Life 1 who appears in the end, so he’s DQ’d, maybe.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 28th 2020 at 6:45:55 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

YMMV.Mega Man 7

• Ensemble Dark Horse: The Super Adapter, which combines the best features of the two Rush Adapters from Mega Man 6 to form a very effective power-up.

Don't we have an inverse of Scrappy Weapon that would suit this entry better? Because I'm pretty sure weapons can't be Ensemble Darkhorses.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

YMMV.Mother 3

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • There's a pretty large fanbase for Kumatora. That's not to say Ana and Paula are unpopular either, but Kumatora tends to be the most beloved of the girls. The feisty attitude and frequent use of mild swearing help to set her apart.
    • In hindsight, some fans believe she would have made a better representative in Brawl, considering that most of Lucas's attacks, including his Final Smash, PK Starstorm, weren't even his, but directly lifted from her moveset and given to him. Some even hoped she'd replace him for the fourth game. Even after Lucas returned to the roster, a large and vocal section of the fandom still believes she would be a great addition as a third representative. Her cameo in Lucas's Final Smash in Ultimate was met with much joy.
  • And Flint.
  • There's also a lot of fanart for Lil' Miss Marshmallow, an optional boss character.
  • Quite a bit of fanart exists for Fuel as well. Some people were rather disappointed he never has much relevance after the prologue.
  • Rope Snake, despite constantly failing to help the party every time, he's the most consistently hilarious of the side characters; never failing to lighten the mood when the drama really piles on, and the disproportionately awesome opinion of his abilities, he ends up being highly endearing and players tend to forgive him for his unhelpfulness.
  • On the antagonist side, a lot of people like the Ultimate Chimera.

Kumatora and Flint are main characters, so those are easy cuts. Not to mention Flint being a Zero-Context Example. (Lil' Miss Marshmellow, Fuel, and Ultimate Chimera are ZCEs too, as a matter of fact.)

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 5th 2020 at 10:08:03 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Final Fantasy has a some examples I don't think fit.

YMMV.Final Fantasy VII Remake:

• Ensemble Dark Horse: Despite being a minor character in the original, Jessie is getting a lot of love from fans in this version due to her cute appearance, friendly personality, her Ship Tease with Cloud, and her occasional snark. Being voiced by fan favorite voice actress Erica Lindbeck is another plus. Some are even hoping she gets Spared by the Adaptation.

Jessie is the third most prominent character so far (in the demo), after Cloud and Barret. The tropes for the remake are about the remake, not the franchise, so her original prominence isn't relevant. She's going to be less prominent than the real party members later on, but she doesn't outshine them in popularity anyway. Popular, yes, but not in relation to how prominent she is.

---

EnsembleDarkhorse.Final Fantasy:

• This trope isn't limited to characters, some monsters and summons have gained a sizable following as well.
  • Tonberries are generally well-loved for looking adorable for such little killers, not to mention often giving decent rewards for (managing to) defeat them.
  • Cactuars.
  • Chocobos and Moogles, but generally Chocobos are prefered (as they can restore all MP, and allow you bypass monster you don't feel like fighting).
  • Amongst Summons, Ifrit and Shiva are this, despite being more or less useless against enemies that are effected by their element.

Arguments about whether creatures count or not aside, chocobos and moogles have always been promoted as series mascots. I don't think they qualify. Shiva and Ifrit are two of the most prominent summons in the series, often being the first ones you encounter in the games. I don't think they qualify either. Tonberries and cactuars at least got popular and then got more prominence as a result.

Edit:

• Any character with the surname "Highwind".

Just not true. Several of them are main characters.

Edited by AnotherDuck on Mar 7th 2020 at 1:40:56 PM

Check out my fanfiction!

The last one looks like a ZCE too. Though I’m not sure if you just took that snippet from a paragraph or not.

I remember seeing Austin from The Backyardigans listed as an Ensemble Dark Horse. While he appears less often than the other main characters, he’s still a main character. Permission to delete?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 11th 2020 at 6:00:13 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Of course.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.