Setting Up Trope Relationships

That would be a good idea.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Alright then. Pending an official redefinition of Subtrope, we'll be using the definition that is currently provided on the article based on the "example of B must also be an example of A" interpretation.

So then... Before the subtrope-centric derail happened, we had been discussing the nature of the relationship between Biomanipulation and the various tropes listed in its article as "possible applications". The conclusion that had been reached is that none of those tropes qualify as subtropes, and any of them whose articles claim they are subtropes should be edited accordingly.

Does anyone have anything else to say on the matter?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

OK, unless a lot of the people who had contributed to the discussion during the period of high activity that this thread saw soon after I had revived have for some unknown reason unwatched this thread, I'm going to assume that the lack of any response as a case of tacit agreement and move on.

• Biomanipulation: In accordance with the conclusions reached on the first page, only Master of Your Domain counts as an actual subtrope of Biomanipulation, with the remaining tropes only occasionally overlapping as potential applications.

• Speculative Fiction LGBT: Amended all subtrope references regarding the relevant tropes.

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New item: The Migration, defined as "The migration of a homeless group to a new home."

I'm thinking it may be a supertrope to one or more of the following tropes (which I'll do may best to accurately summarize their definitions; feel free to correct me if I you see me making any mistakes).

• Invading Refugees: An invading force turns out to be themselves refugees.
• Space Cossacks: The refugees have fled to the frontiers of civilized space and become Space Pirates, Hired Guns, Intrepid Merchants, or any other kind of occupation that fits well with living on the fringes of society in a space setting.
• Space Nomads: Space People who are also nomads, moving frequently and with no place to call home but their fleet of spaceships.
• War Refugees: People being displaced from their hometown/homeland due to war.

Opinions?

edited 1st Nov '17 3:13:45 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Space Cossacks seem to me to have The Migration in their past (probably), but aren't currently migrating. Ditto for Space Nomads. Furthermore, the latter could be people who started as normal nomads, and simply made the transition to space—people like the Rom or Sami. In which case, I'm not sure The Migration would fit at all.

The refugee tropes seem much closer. I could probably see those as subtropes, though I'm interested to hear other opinions.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I have to disagree on Space Nomads; if I'm not misunderstanding the trope's definition, they basically undergo The Migration multiple times, moving from one planet, galaxy or location in space to another, but never staying in one place for long.

Good points on everything else, though.

edited 1st Nov '17 4:01:29 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

The Migration is specifically about looking for a new home.

Space Nomads merely have to live in spaceships (or be Sapient Ships, I suppose). Some may be looking for new homes, but that's definitely not part of the definition.

Am I missing something?

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Gotta say I agree with Xtifr on this one.

I guess it depends on how you define "new home". Of course, it would help if you could give a few examples of Space Nomads that prove your assertation that The Migration isn't an intrinsic part of the definition.

edited 3rd Nov '17 4:32:23 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Since you seem to be the only one who thinks this notion you've invented is somehow intrinsic, I'm not quite sure why you feel the burden of proof falls on me.

But if you really feel you need proof, you could simply look at the on-page examples for Space Nomads—the majority of which do not fit The Migration. The Literature section, for example, has only one (of five) examples which fits the migration (from New Jedi Order). The other four plainly do not.

Probably the most common counter-example is traders who live in their ships, which is an extremely common subtrope. This is found (in addition to the on-page examples) in the Alliance/Union series, where the majority of the Trader's Alliance live on their ships, and in the Eight Worlds series, where an alien race which spends their whole life following giant Space Whales occasionally stops by the solar system to trade.

Another common version is literal space gypsies, which are found not only in the on-page example of The Space Gypsy Adventures but in works like the Skyrider series by Melisa Michaels, where many Romani have migrated to the Asteroid belt because the lifestyle suits them.

Then there's the ones that are more like intelligent space locusts, like the Orks from Warhammer 4k, who land on planets and trash them to build new ships, then head out again, looking for new victims.

Some of the examples (e.g. Mass Effect) are borderline, but keep in mind that even if some nomads do end up settling down, that doesn't mean they were looking for a home when they were being nomadic. It doesn't say one way or the other, but since it says the Quarians are based on Romani, I suspect the fact that they can end up settling down still doesn't mean they were actually The Migration. In fact, I'd call it shoehorning without much stronger evidence.

I will admit that some of these (e.g. the Warhammer Orks) might fit the English definition of the word "migration", but they clearly do not fit our trope.

edit: typo

edited 5th Nov '17 10:32:53 AM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Only one out of merely three people who bothered participating in the discussion. Among an-unknown-number-that's-probably-in-the-hundreds of people who are consistently active in the forum. In a community that numbers in the tens of thousands, last time I checked.

See, this is why I keep hoping that more people would become consistent posters in this thread: It avoids the trap of assuming that the collective opinion of 3-5 people would be even remotely accurate as a reflection of the troper community (well, the ones that are rational and mature enough to have their input be worth considering, at least).

It may be (and in hindsight I really should've pointed this out) because the description of Space Nomads itself explicitly contradicts you on your claim that "Space Nomads merely have to live in spaceships" by specifically requiring that "the people in question have to actually move around once in a while (ie: be nomadic)". AFAIK nomadism pretty much is what The Migration is about; nobody said that the migrants have to actually acquire a new home during the events of the story, just that they're looking for one (though the description of The Migration is so bare-bones that I wouldn't fault most people for thinking otherwise). Macross Frontier (which is listed on The Migration) is one such example of "we're looking for a new home, but have no particular destination in mind, and aren't even sure we will achieve our goal in the first place because we might get destroyed by a bunch of hostile aliens too strong for us to fight off".

I'm not familiar with any of these examples, but this takes me back to what I've previously said about this depends on the definition of "new home".

Let me put it this way: What's the difference between these Alliance people living on their ships in space, and a real-life tribe of pastoral nomads living in tents/caravans in between the times they find a spot rich with fresh pastures and water where they can actually settle for a prolonged period (before inevitably moving on when there's no more pastures and/or water)?

The quarians^note The lack of capitalization is actually official, BTW; Mass Effect is one rare example of deliberately averting Capital Letters Are Magic in a genre where it's the norm. are looking for a new home throughout the storyline (though they wouldn't mind getting their old one back, it's just that they know they can't do it with the geth still around), and have been doing so in the backstory for as long as they've been kicked out of their homeworld. The whole thing ends up becoming a very crucial part of the plot in Mass Effect 3, in fact.

See, here's the thing: What sets the trope as it's written apart from the English definition of "migration"? And more importantly, should it be so? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: We have ample precedent of descriptions being rewritten either partially or wholly to fix problems in them; they're not holy scriptures written in stone.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Good question; I do not believe the pastoral nomads fit the definition for The Migration. As nomads, they are looking for temporary homes, not a place they would designate as the center of their civilization. Not a home, but a settlement that they intend to abandon in a short period of time.

The same applies to Space Nomads; while a given example might also be undergoing The Migration, I do not believe every example is doing that. Some explicitly do not want a permanent home, and either constantly travel from place to place (living in their ships) or only live in temporary settlements before moving on.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Look, you're the one that wants to make this change, so the burden of proof falls on you. If you can't establish that all Space Nomads meet our definition of The Migration, then we don't make the change. And it has to be all, because you're proposing a subtrope relationship. That means a single counterexample (unless it can be classified as a subversion) is enough to torpedo your idea. And I can write a counterexample in a few minutes, if needs must. (Fortunately, I don't have to, since the page is full of counterexamples.)

As for the idea that thousands "support you in email", that's a bold claim for someone who has no support so far. But never mind that; let's stick to the facts.

The facts are: the definitions are unrelated, so there's no logical reason to think the tropes are related, and there are examples of each which don't fit the other, which proves they are indeed unrelated.

And I'm not speaking hypothetically here. Unlike you, I am familiar with those examples. I'm a voracious reader, averaging about four books a week, and I'm over 50. I've read a lot of examples of Space Nomads. What you're talking about is the "wandering jew" archetype, which is a common one, but you're ignoring the "wandering gypsy" archetype, which is equally common. The former are seeking a new home; the latter are happy on the road, and have no interest in settling down. And both are Space Nomads.

A specific case (and remember, I only need one counterexample, though I can supply many more if I set my mind to it): the Trader's Alliance in Alliance/Union series consists of powerful trader families which live on ships, and control half of human space. (The half that isn't controlled by the Union.) They could easily settle down at any point, should they so desire, but they lack any interest in doing so.

The traders from Citizen of the Galaxy are similar. And if I spent a little time browsing my library, I could probably offer you a dozen more like that. And we haven't even gotten to the "space gypsies" yet!

Not to mention Living Ships which don't even have a concept of settling down—because they're ships! Traveling around the galaxy and trading is all they do.

As for changing the definition of The Migration, 1. repair shop is thataway, and 2. I suspect the English definition of the term is too broad to qualify as a proper trope. If we were to change it, I would recommend renaming, rather than trying to redefine it as something so broad as "people who move around". But again, that's a question for repair shop. For now, the definition is what it is, and Space Nomads is plainly not a subtrope.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Nonsequitor: I'd like to suggest Mr. Smith is a subtrope to Secret Identity.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Do other tropers agree that Venus Is Wet is a subtrope to Science Marches On? There's currently a section in SMO that simply redescribes VIW.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yes, that one's definitively a subtrope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Action Girl (today's featured trope) has a list of sub-tropes, not all of which seem like actual sub-tropes. An Action Fashionista, Badass Driver, or Cute Bruiser can be male. A woman who Hates Wearing Dresses isn't necessarily an Action Girl.

~Xtifr: Coming back to this thread after several months of distraction, I find myself mind-boggled at what the hell I was on about back then when it came to Space Nomads. It almost looks as if I was on a drunken bender (or at least, my impression of one)... except I don't, have never and will never willingly drink any form of alcoholic beverage.

Will you accept my sincere apology for my shameful past conduct?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Would it be fair to establish Not-So-Imaginary Friend is a Sub-Trope to Imaginary Friend (created when ImFr is subverted)?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Well, Faux Action Girl (which, similarly to Not-So-Imaginary Friend, is a subversion of Action Girl) has always been considered a subtrope of Action Girl, so I think the same could be applied to Not-So-Imaginary Friend. And maybe Not So Stoic and Not-So-Omniscient Council of Bickering w.r.t. The Stoic and The Omniscient Council of Vagueness, respectively.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Does Aggressive Submissive qualify as a subtrope of Hidden Depths? Or is the overlap only occasional?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Makes sense to me.

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Tricky question there. I don't feel that removing agency promotes Hidden Depths, and I generally associate Aggressive Submissive with loss of agency. But without including my personal bias, I can't see an argument against it acting as a Sub-Trope (ha-haa).

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I would like to propose City Planet as a subtrope to Absurdly Cool City.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I don't see how agency figures into qualification for being a subtrope of Hidden Depths.

City Planet as a subtrope of Absurdly Cool City seems sensible. The very concept of the former seems to be based on "Rule of Cool in the form of Bigger Is Better" taken to the Logical Extreme.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Is Theme Tune Roll Call a subtrope of List Song? A Theme Tune Roll Call is a List Song that specifically lists characters.

Edited by Mickoonsley19 on Dec 19th 2018 at 11:08:06 AM

... I think you answered your own question. But yes, reading the descriptions, it does seem to be case.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I went and made the changes to the tropes recently discussed. I neglected Hidden Depths and Aggressive Submissive because I wasn't certain how to include the sub/super-trope relations in the page descriptions.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.