Is this an example?

So... to finally address the Clueless Aesop question (page 663) properly...

First and foremost - no, I do not disagree with the aesop itself nor dislike it. I actually fully support it. The fact that emotions such as sadness are important to me is precisely the reason I love moving pieces of art like (to bring up some well known examples) Titanic or Green Mile. This is also one of reasons why I fell in love with MLP:FiM two and a half years ago.

However, just because I believe in importance of empathy and negative emotions that evoke it doesn't mean that I think it's plausible in every situation. This is certainly not the case with Inside Out which is a movie told from perspective of a school girl, interacting with another school kids. Which tries to convey its message largely via a scene where said girl cries in front of other kids (a scene where she cries in front of her parents - that's completely different story - note that I do not complain about that scene, nor the way it conveys aesop). If that's not Clueless Aesop, then I don't know what it is - but what I know for sure is that the delivery of the message may make it fall flat to many people here.

"Secondly, it makes a very problematic generalization when calling all kids "cruel" and all teens "monsters""

I'm sorry - I never said that ALL kids are cruel nor that ALL teens are monsters. It's just Truth in Television, that is all. Not with all children/teens, but surely with a significant part of them. This stems from very simple fact that it's young people we're talking about, and thus emotionally immature for the most part.

Yes, both tropes are under No Real Life Examples, Please! rule, but it's not like I ever pointed fingers towards anyone, just brought up the general problem.

"All in all, it's obvious (and concerningly so) that the troper is very biased against the subject."

Maybe I am, to an extent. But my opinion on the matter stems from the fact that I personally experienced many, many situations where kids or teens failed to show any empathy whatsoever where an adult and emotionally mature person would surely show it. And I'm not just talking about empathy towards my person, either - very often, I was a third party in such situations or heard stories from people I know. My colleague from my job once told me how her 7-year old daughter panicked and cried when she experienced troubles with internet connection with her class (she was distance learning due to COVID-19, you know) and came up with a scenario where other kids deliberately pretended that she gets no sound just because they thought it would be funny to see her panic and cry. When I expressed my disbelief that little kids would be cruel like that, she assured me that oh yes, they would be and they were, more than once. And that's just one of many anecdotes that I can provide. During my Internet travels, I learned about even more such examples that made me sure that what I experienced is a very common problem.

You may come up with an argument that it's exactly what makes me biased - that since I saw bullying (or experienced it myself) so frequently, I cannot believe that young people could show empathy... but I might just as well reverse such logic and claim that it is you who are biased, since you were never bullied or experienced it too rarely to realize how very common that phenomenon is.

"Plus, to my knowledge, psychologists were part of the process"

That does not necessarily mean the did not allow some Artistic License (or a lot of it). Like I said, it's not about the message, but delivery of it.

"This seems like a cynical editor who didn't like the fact that they didn't show kids being cruel"

I'm sorry - I wish you not to make some baseless ad hominem remarks about me nor presume what I want/like or what I don't.

Edited by Der_SpeeDer on Sep 7th 2021 at 10:05:13 AM

As someone who has been bullied, I can assure you that yes, children can have empathy and it's weird to claim otherwise. Yes, kids can be cruel, often due to not really getting social standards yet, but the notion that no child would feel bad for another is cynical at best and dehumanizing at worst. Hell, even as a tiny autistic child, I remember scoping out crying babies in public places to figure out how to make them feel better.

Like, the movie shows that Riley being sad around her parents and friends is what helps her get support. Yeah there's the chance she'll be bullied but the point of the movie is that not every person will hate you for showing negative emotions, and that suffering in silence is self-destructive. Claiming that no child should cry because other kids will always be cruel about it is... not a great message for a Disney movie, LOL. Even if she gets bullied, the point is that she does have some support out there and it's not bad to have a child character with people who love her. I mean, what would the alternative be here?

Also I thought you just said you'd drop this wonk in Edit Banned but whatever

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 7th 2021 at 7:45:49 AM

As someone who LOVED your entry, and even wanted to PM you to thank you for making the entry... You should just drop this entirely. I think you are taking this too far.

No worries. At this point, I don't really care that much whether you will agree to re-upload that entry or not. Either option is fine. Just doing some unfinished business, so to speak - if the whole problem stemmed from the fact that I ignored the discussion, then that's fine, I can discuss for a moment as a sign of goodwill and no offence taken.

Still, I knew that by writing this, I risk being accused of provocation. When I disregard the debate, it's bad. When I continue it for a bit on second thought, it's bad too. There's no way to please you, guys... :/

"the notion that no child would feel bad for another is cynical at best and dehumanizing at worst"

But I already said that I don't claim all children are cruel... ugh, never mind.

Edited by Der_SpeeDer on Sep 7th 2021 at 11:21:25 AM

I'm thinking of adding an example to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (1964)'s YMMV page, but I'm not sure exactly which trope it fits better under.

See, in Rudolph merchandise, the Bumble is usually portrayed as a Gentle Giant and a good friend to Rudolph and the gang, which has caused a lot of people to forget that throughout most of the special, he was portrayed as a terrifying monster who was intending to harm and devour Rudolph and his friends, and he only made his Heel–Face Turn in the final ten minutes of the special, after Hermey rips out all his teeth.

Would this fit better under Draco in Leather Pants or Misaimed Marketing?

I'd say Misaimed Marketing, because it technically isn't fans per se who are responsible for this marketing.

I'm still waiting for an answer on these examples.

From Mace Windu's section in Characters.Star Wars Jedi Council:

• Nice Job Breaking It, Hero:
  • Indirectly, it is his refusal to apologize to Ahsoka for the way the Council treated her that leads to her walking away from the Order, which is an event that further inflames Anakin's anger with the Jedi.
  • The Jedi Council, and Mace Windu in particular, don't trust Anakin because he is too close to Palpatine; yet Palpatine has requested that young Skywalker be his representative on the Council. One option for Mace would have been to explain his misgivings to Anakin and ask him to make a choice then & there which side to be on. Instead, Mace not only insults Anakin by denying him the rank of Master but also sets him up as an informant for the Council in Palpatine's office; and a resentful spy is the best kind of spy. Thus, Anakin is driven even closer to the Chancellor.
  • Making a grand, slow, and dramatic move to kill Palpatine rather than a swift action while the lightsaber is inches from his face gives Anakin enough time to intervene, which directly leads to his death and indirectly causes the deaths of thousands of Jedi.

Are these valid examples of this trope?

Edited by gjjones on Sep 7th 2021 at 8:06:49 AM

Under the newer expanded definition, is it a case of Irony as She Is Cast if an actress well known to be a lesbian plays a character who is regularly Innocently Insensitive about gay people?

I think so

Nice Job Breaking It, Hero requires those being done in the name of heroics. If it's just him being kind of mean, then no.

This was just added to Recap.Avatar The Last Airbender The Boy In The Iceberg.

• Actor Allusion: One of Aang (voiced by Zach Tyler Eisen)'s first lines is asking Katara if she wants to go penguin sliding.

This sounds like a stretch. "An actor voiced both a penguin and a character who rides a penguin at one point".

I was thinking about adding a Diabolus ex Machina entry to What If…? (2021) regarding the ending of the latest episode. The context (spoilers for said episode): the episode details the events of a zombie apocalypse in the MCU, starting in the northwestern United States. At the end of the episode, the group of survivors that the episode has been following have discovered a potential cure using the Mind Stone and are on their way to Wakanda to attempt to distribute it (a character even mentioned earlier in the episode that Wakanda had likely avoided infection due to their force shields, not to mention, you know, oceans, since it's specifically mentioned that the infection is spread through saliva and thus is not airborne). However, the end of the episode reveals that not only has the infection somehow spread to Wakanda (despite said force shields still visibly being up), a zombified Thanos is also there, with an almost completed Infinity Gauntlet. Since there is no reason for Thanos to have come to Wakanda in the first place (as he originally came there to recover the Mind Stone), let alone for the infection to have spread to Wakanda, although I suppose that one could potentially be acceptable given zombie genre conventions I think it could qualify for the above-mentioned trope, but I do also acknowledge that it might come across as complaining (which would also be good to nail down just in case someone else tries it).

Edited by Afterword on Sep 8th 2021 at 3:53:33 PM

I have immersed myself in ATLA lore and I have never heard of this reference. Unless they can provide a citation, nuke it.

Does Coy, Girlish Flirt Pose work with the page image / Start Screen of Fairy Bloom?

I guess it's implied that she's flirting with the viewer? But more because she's holding her knife / sword behind her back...

And it seems like we don't have a trope for hiding something behind your back, in general...

https://www.google.com/search?q=bouquet+hide+behind+back+trope&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch

Edited by Malady on Sep 8th 2021 at 12:55:52 PM

I don't think so.

So... There are some really unfortunate implications in the most recent two Questionable Content comics (4607-8), which is causing a lot more fuming than normal on Reddit, and which I'd normally imagine would belong somewhere on the YMMV page. Except, I'm not certain what trope it's an example of, and I'm not sure if it's too NSFW or not. Basically, May suggested branded sex toys and body pillows based off Marigold's V-Tuber avatar, except Jeph seems to have forgotten that, back in April, he revealed that the avatar looks like one of those anime characters that's Really 700 Years Old, like the manaketes in Fire Emblem. So in context, May basically suggested lolicon body pillows.

Can someone help decide whether the fan outrage at this belongs on a trope page, and if it does, what trope?

Does this example from WesternAnimation.Packages From Planet X qualify as a Space Whale Aesop:

• Space Whale Aesop: In this series, there's some morals presented that have nonetheless unrealistic consequences:
  • "Mask and Ye Shall Receive" has the moral "Hiding your face in order to do questionable things, even if they are to help a friend, isn't always a good thing", but the fact it involves a Human Alien super-villain renders this questionable at best. At best there was a Lost Aesop in that episode.
  • "Dooley Noted" has a moral of "Don't troll people with conspiracy theories" but the result is ending up in detention with real aliens if you keep insisting there are some".

If the character appears underage and fans find it gross that she's sexualized, that can fall under Squick.

Do I have permission to remove Beverly Hills Cop from Villain Ball?

On From the Mouths of Babes:

• In The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air episode "Be My Baby Tonight", 13-year-old Ashley asks Will to tell her everything he knows about sex. He is appalled as she goes on to say that she knows all about eggs, sperm and fallopian tubes. He says, "Am I going to have to wash your mouth out with soap, young lady?"

The average 13-year-old should be logically educated on sex, so I don't think the example fits the nature of the this trope mainly being young children under 11 or before puberty, however in the earlier seasons Ashley is portrayed as innocent and somewhat childlike, so I see potential for this trope fitting her given the way the work treats her, but then again any childlike character of any age who's treated like a kid in the work could qualify.

That seems to be intended as an example of the trope, although it doesn't really make sense in the in-universe context. A 13-year old should have been through sex education in health class. That said, check the setting. Not all school systems did this in... checks Wikipedia... 1990.

Maybe it's a downplayed example? Or at least it doubles as an example of Values Dissonance (sex ed being more controversial / less mainstream in the early 90s).

Can Kleptomaniac Hero apply to a Villain Protagonist? One of Undertale's character pages has this listed as an example:

• Kleptomaniac Hero: During a No Mercy run, the Buy and Sell options in empty stores are changed to Take and Steal: the former lets you help yourself to the store's inventory for free, while the latter lets you empty out their registers at your leisure, although the latter option only gives any noticeable amounts of cash in Snowdin.

For context, a No Mercy run involves the player going out of their way to kill as many monsters as possible in a game where the best ending is earned by not killing anything.

Edited by Vandagyre on Sep 9th 2021 at 10:46:43 AM

I cordially hate Downplayed Example because it lets people be very lazy about shoehorning tropes into their favorite work. Just provide the necessary context in the example: in this case that the work plays the trope straight for comedy despite it not making sense that a 13-year-old would not have received sex education.

I think you're focusing on the wrong part. Whether the "Hero" in Kleptomaniac Hero is meant to apply to villain protagonists or not (and I will offer no opinion on whether the protagonist of Undertale is a villain since I haven't played it), the core of the trope is that the character walks around towns casually looting them and nobody seems to notice or care.

If the game explicitly has mechanics for stealing, then a key element of the trope is not satisfied. Of course, you may still be able to ransack people's closets and underwear drawers without them caring, and thus the trope would apply in that respect (again, not familiar with the game).

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 9th 2021 at 1:56:45 PM

So add a complaint about Fridge Logic to the example? Seems even more unnecessary than adding Downplayed Trope.

That's a good point. The note about 13 year olds getting sex-ed would more properly go in Fridge Logic. The key fact is that the work acts as if the trope is being used, so it is a straight example.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 9th 2021 at 1:58:27 PM