Two Tropes In One: Oral Tradition

SUMMARY:

The old Oral Tradition was a medium and several genres merged into one page, and Mythology and Myth And Legend redirected to it. We agreed to split this page.

Oral Tradition has been redefined as a medium in which a work is not written or otherwise recorded in any way. We're now writing new pages for the genres.

(By definition it is basically impossible to trope an unrecorded work, so I assume that nothing troped or used as an example on this wiki can actually be Oral Tradition.)

Still To Do:

• 1. New genre pages still to be created (With page type Trope or Trope+Index and Literature Genres index.):
  • A. Heroic Literature is in YKTTW
  • B. Myth is in YKTTW
  • C. Folklore is a disambiguation page and the new version is at the sandbox stage
  • D. Other genre pages such as Wisdom Literature, Folktale, Folk Ballad, and Folk Legend have been proposed.

• 2. All of these pages need to be indexed.

• 3. Wicks need to be sorted out.
  • A. Oral Tradition, Mythology, Folklore, and the sandbox wicks are not fixed.
  • B. Myth And Legend, Legend, and Myth wicks are Done (for now).
  • C. Lots of folders and AC's are labeled Mythology, Folklore, Oral Tradition, whatever, but don't generate wicks. Somehow they need a "wick" cleaning.

• 4. Fairy Tales may need to be modified to clarify its relation with Folklore, but that probably requires a separate TRS thread.

• 5. Mythology Tropes is in YKTTW right now. The existing Mythology Tropes page is a duplicate of the works list now at Mythology.

---

THE ORIGINAL OP^{is here} The description for this page has several problems:

1. Acts like/implies all Oral Tradition is really really old. States outright every Oral Tradition trope is from The Oldest Ones in the Book. But this is a medium, not a time period, and of course is still used today. Jokes and rumors, for example, are often circulated this way. Certainly there is no cause to assume that all oral works were composed before writing was ever invented, before 3500 BCE. That's just ridiculous.

2. Makes statements that all Older Than Dirt works have their origin in this medium... which isn't really right. Sure many things that have been written down were, or might have been, circulated in an oral form first. But

• A. Written works, even Older Than Dirt ones, could have been composed first in writing.
• B. Unless they're doing an in-depth textual or archaeological analysis, tropers should not assume one way or the other.

3. The list that follows the description isn't a list of material composed in this medium. It's a list of Mythology and Folklore pages. But those pages include works that were composed originally in written form, with no oral precourser (for example, ancient Greek and Roman plays were composed for Theatre, which is a different medium).

4. Lastly, two of the three sub-types of tropes are red links.

In short, this is a medium, not a genre. I want to rewrite the description into something more reasonable, and move the content to a separate Mythology and Folklore genre page.

edited 12th Jun '13 8:27:58 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Your suggestions seem reasonable to me. In respect to your second point, I wonder if changing the sentence to "most of the oldest stories have their roots in this ancient tradition" would help address that problem.

As for your third point, I think we could change the example heading to "the mythology of the cultures below often have taken form in Oral Tradition" and maybe help fix some of those problems. Another option would be to only list the names of works (e.g., The Odyssey) and avoid listing cultures altogether.

It seems to me that the subtropes that are currently redlinks should probably be taken to YKTTW and made into indexes since I cannot find any existing indexes that would fit those tropes.

edited 27th Jan '12 2:51:16 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

The trouble is that "ancient tradition" means very little. It doesn't refer to a medium, a culture, a genre, a time period, or anything else that those works have. It's weasel words. And some of those myths aren't ancient at all — the Kalevala was written in the 19th century, and Hindu Mythology continues to produce new works to this day, being a living relgion. The various Native American myths were likewise only written down in the last few centuries, except in Mesoamerica.

The mythology list is a symptom of people confusing the Oral Tradition medium with the Mythology genre, and that has already led to lots of problems that I've had to clean up on The Oldest Ones in the Book. I really think Mythology needs its own genre page, separate from this one.

I do think it's worthwhile to say that Oral Tradition is almost certainly the oldest medium of human expression, and although it isn't something that can be preserved long-term (except by converting it into some other medium) it's likely that most myths, legends, and folktales have oral origins from before they were written down.

I agree on the idea of a Mythic Tropes index, though I hope it doesn't become an exhaustive catalog like The Oldest Ones in the Book.

edited 27th Feb '12 9:50:31 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

I agree with all of your points.

Another consideration for improvement:

Currently, "mythology" is used on this wiki as an umbrella term that contains what I would prefer to call "heroic legend". I don't know whether mythology technically excludes heroic legend (the distinction between "myth" and "legend" is fuzzy), but to me, "mythology" translates more as "stories about gods and cosmology" (such as Theogony) rather than "epics about ancient heroes" (such as The Iliad).

Maybe we could reflect this by making a new genre index "Mythology and Heroic Legend".

edited 4th Feb '12 2:16:40 AM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

By the way, Mythology is apparently a redirect for Oral Tradition. That should change.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Here's the start of a draft for a new Mythology genre page — please help me improve it:

Mythology is a genre of works, one of the oldest genres recognized (that is, codified as a genre) today, and is also a major contributors to the origin of the Fantasy genre. Though often thought of as a "dead" genre that only contains ancient works, mythology exists in most religions and cultures, and continues to be invented and reinterpreted all the time. The genre is generally divided into myths and legends, although the differences between them are fuzzy, subjective, and somewhat culture-specific.

Mythology has been passed around using several different media: while the genre certainly began with Oral Tradition, it also includes Literature, Music, visual artworks, and Theatre.

Because bodies of mythology have huge numbers of authors and are continually developed over centuries or millennia, any given story is likely to come in multiple versions, so internal contradictions are inevitable and can cause Continuity Snarls. Most religions do not have a defined canon that accepts some stories and excludes others. Because cultures, religions, and theology change over time, myths and legends from different centuries may handle the same subjects, deities, and human characters in very different ways, leading to constant Adaptation and re-interpretation. For this reason, it is not a good idea assume that any story is Older Than Dirt just because it's mythical.

Myth

In English the words "myth" and "mythology" are often used to mean "widely believed falsehood" or "total fiction," which is why many people object to using such words for their own culture. However, the older meanings of these words lack the negative connotations. "Mythology" is also the study of myths and legends, and as a genre myths are not defined as false or untrue. The reality behind myths is usually theological subject, especially when divine figures are involved.

(to be commented out: This page is not the place to give your opinions or discuss whether any particular myth is true or false.)

Myths are sacred narratives dealing with subjects such as deities, God, acts of creation, the afterlife, the nature of human souls, and the origin of good and evil. They may tell a Creation Myth or "Just So" Story, express theology and cosmology, or relate themes and tropes to human nature. Most cultures and religions have some mythic narratives, though people both within and between traditions differ in how literally or metaphorically they interpret and believe their myths.

Non-narrative works about theology and cosmology are sometimes also considered to be myth or mythology, even if nobody turned them into an entertaining story yet.

Legend

Legends are often closely related to myths, and may be connected to them in works and larger narratives, but they may also wander from culture to culture more independently. They're mostly about human heroes and ancestors rather than religious concepts. However, it is important to note that the idea of distinguishing religious and non-religious stories and concepts is a recent one — before the Industrial Revolution and the development of modernism and secularism, religion as such did not exist separately from culture in general, and all stories had some of what we would call religious themes.

Legends may concern the ancestors of a particular culture or family, or the origin of a human group, institution or practice. They often also cover much of what we call history today.

Folklore

Some witty text.

Fairy Tales

Some witty and brief text.

List of works pages for myths, legends, and fairy tales:

(Much of the works list from Oral Tradition would be moved here.)

edited 27th Feb '12 9:52:41 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

I'd ditch the big bold warning about Please No Natter (if you need to draw attention to a note that's intended for the editors, not the readers, it should be in comment code, not Bold Inflation) but otherwise, yeah, sure, looks fine.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

If i recall correctly, the name Oral Tradition was chosen over Mythology because a lot of people disagreed with the labeling of various religions (IE: The Bible) as "Myth" as you described.

I'm mildly worried that even with the excellent separation you mention, the highly religious will still bitch about it and reverse this change.

I don't mind, but I worry.

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

If necessary, I'll ask for the page to be locked. The Bible is already locked to prevent flame wars and vandalism. I wouldn't like having to do that, but I don't think this wiki should be putting up inaccurate, misleading pages just to pre-emptively satiate extremists who don't tolerate any discussion of their religion.

Any reasonable person would at least read the page and see that "myth" has more than one meaning and isn't automatically a synonym of "fiction."

edited 20th Feb '12 9:11:26 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

There is a great deal of overlap between the people who would so object, and unreasonable people. Mythology usually means "religion nobody believes in anymore", though.

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

The word has two different meanings, neither of which is a synonym for "oral tradition."

It's also erroneous to think that, for example, the ancient Greek and Norse religions don't have people anymore. They do. They aren't dead.

I'm not interested in seeing this wiki treat any particular religions as superior to others just because they have more vocal/loud members. Nor do I want to see pages of utter misinformation, like this one.

edited 21st Feb '12 7:36:49 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Indeed, no rational person would.

But I'm just saying that The Fundamentalist exists as a trope in real life and we should be at least aware of it and prepare for their fervor.

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

I know. If vandals are causing problems, the solution is to speak with the mods and if necessary, lock the page.

edited 21st Feb '12 7:58:59 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

My points regarding the draft:

• This page should probably also discuss the term "folklore", or the distinction/relationship between "Myth"/"Legend" and "Folklore". Our current page at Folklore is actually about a Video Game of that name (which will eventually have to go to the VideoGame/ namespace).
• You wrote:

I wonder if this is actually true. It depends obviously on your exact definition of religion, but many religious denominations, e.g. the Christian Churches, indeed attempt to create a Canon of accepted writings and teachings that aims to at least reduce Continuity Snarl.

• It should be made clear that not every legend is heroic legend. There is folk legend, religious legend (e.g. the Christian legends of Saints), and probably others.
• I think you overemphasize the connection between (heroic) legend and "religion". Beowulf, the French chansons de geste, Nibelungenlied are all heroic legend cultivated within a Christian culture, but they have little to do with Christian thinking or morality. Heroic legend often survives the transition from one "religion" to the other relatively unharmed (other than myths about gods), because it is about humans primarily and thus is less likely to violate new dogmas of theology. For example, the Christian Middle Ages still believed in the historicity of the Trojan War, even though they did no longer worship the gods who figure in The Iliad.

The reason I set "religion" in quotation marks here is that I think the term "religion" itself is somewhat vague and problematic, as our idea of what is "a religion" is itself formed by our own cultural and religious background. Polytheistic paganism (whether Greek, Norse or Celtic) does not really meet the criteria of what most Westerners (whose concept of "religion" is founded on Christianity) would recognize as "a religion".

edited 22nd Feb '12 4:54:09 AM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

The terminology of "religion" is indeed problematic, and I attempted to address that the modernist, secularist, Western division between secular and religious parts of culture is recent and not universal. Should I emphasize that more?

The thing about "canon" is that it is mostly just an Abrahamic idea. Even in Buddhism, you don't generally see the same emphasis on dividing all known sutras into "truth" and "heresy." Religions that aren't historically attributed to prophets are usually unconcerned with the Abrahamic concept of canon, to my knowledge.

It seems to be related to the distinction between practice/praxis-oriented religions, vs. religions that are oriented towards belief/doxy. The latter are mostly Abrahamic, Gnostic, or related to those, and outside of religions attributed to prophets the focus on belief is especially uncommon. Maybe in written religions, theology and myth are more often written down, with practice more often perpetuated through direct example — if so, distinctions between orthopraxy (accepted practice) and heteropraxy ("heretical" practice) have less impact on the "validity" of sacred texts in practice-oriented religions.

Not that this is a hard-and-fast division, but there are a lot of misconceptions floating around about what "all relgions" are like based on the assumption that they all resemble Christianity.

Regarding legends and folklore: I am quite unfamiliar with those subjects and you seem to be more knowledgeable. Are you willing to give a shot to drafting the sections for those? I can put this into YKTTW or a sandbox so others can edit it (though I don't really know how to use YKTTW).

And yeah, Folklore, huh. That needs to be migrated, it probably has a ton of wrong wicks.

edited 27th Feb '12 9:55:21 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

OK, I tried to improve the wording a bit. Clearly I am not a master of the witty, entertaining writing.

VideoGame.Folklore was migrated (thank you, I-forgot-your-username!), and I made a simple disambig at Main.Folklore, though I don't know what the disambig index is called. The description for folklore could go either there or on Mythology.

Before splitting Oral Tradition there needs to be a crowner. Is it too soon to start one?

edited 25th Feb '12 2:54:27 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Okay, seems I wasn't quite consistent in first saying that religions tend to create a canon of orthodoxy, and then criticizing the "religion" term for being monotheism-centred.

I copied your draft over to Sandbox.Myth Legend And Folklore (working title). I'll try to upgrade it. Anybody is welcome to contribute, though.

I don't know about the crowner. We could vote on whether to split Oral Tradition, but we can't offer an alternative yet.

edited 28th Feb '12 2:30:32 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Awesome, thanks! So, to create a Sandbox you just create a wiki page like normal, but in the Sandbox namespace?

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Arcades Sabboth,

Yep, that is all there is to it.

By the way, I would be glad to make a crowner for splitting Oral Tradition, but I wanted to make sure I knew what tropes you were proposing it be split into. If it would be easier for you to just make the crowner yourself, feel free to do that instead.

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

I made the crowner here: [1]

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Bumping for votes and Sandbox contributions and opinions. Especially on how to minimize edit wars over "myth" and The Bible.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Calling crowner.

I didn't write any of that.

I think it's time to figure out which of the items on the Oral Tradition index/list should move over to Myth Legend And Folklore. Here is my initial suggestion for how to divide it:

Myth Legend And Folklore: Largely Religion and Myth

• Aboriginal Australian Myths
• Abrahamic Sacred Texts
  • The Bible — The Old Testament and New Testament
  • The Qur'an
• Aztec Mythology
• Celtic Mythology (Welsh and Irish)
• Chinese Mythology
• Classical Mythology and Tragedies (Greek and Roman)
• Egyptian Mythology and Funerary Texts
• Finnish Mythology
  • The Kalevala
• Hindu Mythology and Sacred Texts
• Inca Mythology
• Japanese Mythology
• Lusitanian Mythology
• Maya Mythology and Sacred Texts
  • Popol Vuh
• Mesopotamian Mythology
• Native American Mythology
• Norse Mythology
• Slavic Mythology
  • Baba Yaga
  • Russian Mythology And Tales — Also includes several legends and fairy tales.
• The Great Flood — Falls under all of the above, and below, and possibly future additions to this list.

Myth Legend And Folklore: Largely Legend, Folklore, and Fairy Tales

• Arabian Legend
  • Arabian Hero Cycles
• Arabian Nights — Middle Eastern and South Asian Fairy Tales. Big-ass Framing Device.
• Armenian Folklore
  • Ara the Handsome''
  • The Liar''
• Euro-American/United States Folklore
  • Afterlife Express
  • Paul Bunyan
  • Davy Crockett
  • Johnny Appleseed
  • John Henry
  • Famous Gunslingers
  • Pecos Bill
  • Febold Feboldson
  • Brer Rabbit
  • Mountain Folklore
• Euro-Australian Folklore
  • The Speewah
  • Crooked Mick
• European Fairy Tales
  • "Sleeping Beauty"
  • "Goldilocks"
  • "Cinderella"
• Medieval European Folklore
  • King Arthur
  • Merlin — Originally a Welsh Folktale figure before joining the Arthurian Mythos.
  • Robin Hood
  • William Tell
• Japanese Folklore
  • Youkai
  • Multiple Tailed Beasts such as the Kitsune
  • Shapeshifters like the Tanuki
• Nautical Folklore
• Norse Legend
  • The Icelandic Sagas — Mundane stories from Scandinavian tradition.
• Persian Legend
  • The Shahnameh — Contains some of the first tales of Knighthood, Underestimated Albinos and talking Giant Birds such as the Simurgh.
• Urban Legends — Modern day folk stories.
  • Conspiracy Theories
• West Indian Folklore
  • White Witch Of Rose Hall — A famous ghost story from the island of Jamaica.

Oral Tradition

• Aboriginal Australian Myths — Originated in Oral Tradition.
• Abrahamic Sacred Texts originating in Oral Tradition
  • The Bible — Partially oral in origin, e.g. the oral accompaniment of the Torah (later written down, with extensive commentary, as the Talmud) and gospels of the New Testament. The Torah itself, most of the Prophets, and some of the Writings are also attributed to the Hebrew oral tradition, compiled and redacted under Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century BCE.
  • The Qur'an — Oral in origin given that the texts were recited and memorized before being written down by Muhammad's companions.
• Armenian Folklore
  • Ara the Handsome
  • The Liar
• Buddhist Jataka Tales — Folktales about the Buddha's previous incarnations.
• Celtic Mythology — Originally oral, and not written down until after the Irish and Welsh were Christianized.
  • Mabinogion
  • Táin Bó Cúailnge
• Euro-American/United States Folklore
  • Afterlife Express
  • Paul Bunyan
  • Davy Crockett
  • Johnny Appleseed
  • John Henry
  • Famous Gunslingers
  • Pecos Bill
  • Febold Feboldson
  • Brer Rabbit
  • Mountain Folklore
• Euro-Australian Folklore
  • The Speewah
  • Crooked Mick
• European Folk Songs
  • Child Ballad — Traditional ballads from the British Isles.
    • Tam Lin
  • Murder Ballad
• Medieval European Folklore
  • Robin Hood
  • William Tell
• Finnish Mythology
  • The Kalevala — Not purely oral as it was collected and put together by a modern poet, and he also added his own stuff here and there.
• Greek Myths and Legends originating in Oral Tradition
  • The Iliad
  • The Odyssey
  • The Trojan Cycle
• Hindu Sacred Texts and Myths originating in Oral Tradition
  • Mahabharata
    • Bhagavad Gita
  • The Puranas
  • Ramayana
  • The Vedas — Rig Veda, Yajur Veda, Sama Veda, and Atharva Veda
• Japanese Folklore
  • Youkai
  • Multiple-Tailed Beast|s such as the Kitsune
  • Shapeshifters like the Tanuki
• Mesopotamian Myths originating in Oral Tradition
  • Enûma Eliš
  • The Epic of Gilgamesh
• Native American Mythology — North of Mesoamerica religion and history originally were, and in some cases still are, circulated only in oral form.
• Nautical Folklore
• Slavic Mythology — Originally oral, and not written down until after East Europe was Christianized.
  • Baba Yaga
  • Russian Mythology And Tales
• Urban Legends — Modern day folk stories.
  • Conspiracy Theories
• West Indian Folklore
  • White Witch Of Rose Hall — A famous ghost story from the island of Jamaica.

edited 2nd Apr '12 9:30:09 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.

Just a point — Norse Mythology has its origins in Oral Tradition.

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

See, that's the thing that's largely been sidestepped. Pretty much all the book based traditions began with an oral component at the bare minimum, creating so much overlap as to have the distinction be moot.

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.