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No on Tzekel Khan. He's not the one who founded the religion, and blaming him for performing sacrifices—something that his entire faith is founded on—is a lousy argument. Throughout the film he demonstrates an absolute commitment to his religion, and his confusion as to why the protagonists don't want the sacrifice is obviously genuine. As for his determination to kill the heroes by the end, they've shown up in a city he runs, taken it over, and started changing the culture by claiming to be gods, which he does not believe they are.

I'll also note that the reason he tries to lead Cortez to the city is because Cortez matches his prophecy about what the returned gods are supposed to look like. He's helping him because he thinks the man is a deity.

Lastly, the Frollo comparison doesn't hold up, because Frollo is fully aware that he's a sinner and is failing his God, yet continues to do terrible things anyway (that's the whole point of "Hellfire". Tzekel Khan's entire faith, conversely, is founded on human sacrifice. He's not failing the religion he was born into, he's following its tenets exactly.

EDIT: Also the notion that Cortez doesn't impact the heinous standard? He may not appear much, or get a lot of personality, but the fact that he will cheerfully kill everyone in El Dorado is not glossed over. Miguel and Tulio spend the last part of the movie in a panic over the possibility of Cortez finding the city, to the point where they eventually flee town, losing all their riches, in order to stop him from finding it. That wasn't something they were prepared to do to deal with Tzekel Khan, and it establishes Cortez as the far greater threat.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:16:39 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'll have to rewatch the movie again, but by the way you describe it, sounds to me like the other El Doradoian (?) are the ones failing their religion.

I'm with Ambar on this one. Tzekel Khan's actions are driven by his desire to not have his religion destroyed buy a pair of con-men who claim to be gods. He doesn't count.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:15:23 AM by SophiaLonesoul

The religion isn't a nice one, and I can't blame a majority of the population for jumping at the chance to go "hey, look, the gods don't want sacrifices". They aren't failing their religion so much as they are genuinely believing that the gods have ordered the religion changed.

What separates them from Tzekel Khan is that by the end, he doesn't believe they are gods, while the majority of the population still does. The only other locals who figure it out are Chell (who is as a big a crook as they are) and the Chief (who is using them as part of his political struggle with the priesthood). Everybody else thinks Miguel and Tulio are the genuine article. To the population at large, these two are benevolent gods come to change their lives. To Tzekel Khan who a) had a lot invested in how the religion was originally run, and b) has information that everybody else doesn't, they're a pair of interlopers come to ruin his society and damn everyone to hell, by pretending to be gods.

It's not hard to put yourself in Tzekel Khan's shoes, however uncomfortable a fit they might be. Imagine being the Pope and having somebody who claims to be Jesus, show up, convince everyone around you that he is Jesus, and then start changing everything about Christianity. You know he's a conman, but nobody else seems to, and they go along with it, while he undermines your position and makes you irrelevant, and leads the people into what you've been taught to think is sin. You'd probably be pretty pissed, and willing to do just about anything to get rid of him.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:25:29 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

ACW, please stop with the "but what about..." every other post. It bogs this down enormously.

You referring to Cortez (which was just part of another post) or Vorkosigan Saga guy?

@ 35033: I misremembered it, but the Pale Man's original killing spree is from the 1950s to the 1980s. For Jakoda's entry, "initiates a massacre" could be potholed to Rape, Pillage, and Burn.

@ 35032: on Kahn for not standing out in the context of his culture. And no, he's not Frollo. If, say, you had the Archdeacon or Phoebus going along with Frollo's plans in Hunchback you'd run into problems with Deliberate Values Dissonance, but he's a clear standout even for how the work portrays the Late Middle Ages.

@ 35037: With that information I think I'll change my vote on the Butcher to a . One-Scene Wonder villains have a hard time qualifying for the very reason you adress. The only clear keep of that nature of the top of my head would be Blacula's Dracula, and he was at least firmly established as both a bloodsucking monster and a slaver.

Update on the YMMV sandbox: Since we seen to have come to a consensus on Harry and Romano not meeting the criteria, I'll go and cut them, as well as Tracy for failing baseline heinousness and Offstage Villainy.

Any other comments on the Fan Works example I brought up here?

edited 31st Jan '15 9:57:18 AM by Morgenthaler

Pale Man fixed. Not terribly sure if that pothole works (any thoughts from those who've seen the film?).

for Tzekel-kan for the same reasons Ambar gave.

All of these, along with American Horror Story, will be submitted Monday (WTF, according to the character page, Bloody Face is horrified at the abortion of his child, though that could be I guess because it's his child).

• Date AST Like ^note also known as Date A Strike; a spinoff of Date A Live: Minerva Liddell is the former Ace Wizard of Special Sorcery Service and later became a temporary Wizard of Deus.Ex.Machina Industries, which houses a dangerous group of mercenaries who only care about accomplishing their missions, with no regard for human life. Her only apparent motivation in life is to kill and "destroy" whatever she can, including raping and killing children in front of their parents. She doesn't consider the other SSS members to be her friends, and as soon as they rebel in order to save Artemisia, Minerva willingly turns on them, inflicting various atrocities on them in the process and getting a real kick out of it. She's just as unhinged as a crazy DEM Wizard can get, and dies trying to harm anyone in front of her as much as possible.
• Darkwing Duck: Taurus Bulba, Darkwing’s smartest and most-feared adversary, is introduced serving a ninety-nine year sentence at a high-security prison for several crimes, including the murder of Gosalyn's grandfather. Once he breaks out and destroys the prison he was contained in, Taurus schemes to activate the Waddlemeyer Ramrod in order to destroy buildings and rob banks. To gain the code, Taurus threatens to drop Gosalyn off a building if Darkwing didn't activate the Ramrod, remarking that she'd "make a nasty stain on the street." Once Darkwing activates the Ramrod in desperation, Taurus drops Gosalyn anyways for little reason at all, looking over it with a smug grin. After he was resurrected by F.O.W.L. as a Cyborg, Taurus shows his gratitude by destroying their base and going to work on his own. With no comedic quirks and with no regard to who he hurt, Taurus Bulba was Darkwing's most feared adversary for a reason.
• Cube: Quentin, a police officer, is one of several people who are mysteriously trapped inside a giant cubical maze which is composed of smaller cubical rooms, some of which are booby-trapped. He initially presents himself as a levelheaded leader and assists in navigating the group to the maze's outer edge, but is slowly revealed to be a cruel, violent man who proves to be a bigger threat to the group's survival than the deadly maze itself. He drops Holloway to her death merely because he dislikes her, then lies about it to the others. He tries to rape Leaven not soon after. He's stopped in time by Worth, for which Quentin savagely beats him. When the others finally try to leave him behind for what he did, he finds a way back to them at the exit room. He quickly stabs Leaven to death, fatally wounds Worth, and prepares to do the same to the mentally disabled Kazan before he is stopped by the dying Worth.
• Haunter: The Pale Man, aka Edgar Mullins, is a vicious ghost who loves the murder of innocents. When he was a boy, he killed both his parents by poisoning and smothering them in their beds. He later becomes a serial killer who claims numerous victims between the 1950s and his death in the 1980s. Still not content, he returns from the dead as a murderous ghost and keeps the spirits of his victims trapped in the house so he can torment them indefinitely. He also possesses the fathers of new families, whom he then forces to kill themselves along with their wives and children. Utterly cruel and malevolent, he sees no reason to ever stop; as he proclaims to one of his victims' spirits, "I always do enjoy killing you."
• Nightcrawler: Louis "Lou" Bloom is what is known as a "Nightcrawler," a reporter who prowls the nights for the most gruesome footage he can gather. Louis is also a total sociopath who opens the film by attacking and perhaps murdering a security guard for his watch. Once he discovers the money in reporting, Louis devotes himself wholeheartedly to the endeavor. He blackmails his boss into sleeping with him once his position is secure, knowing that she needs his footage. Lou sabotages the brakes of a van belonging to a rival so he can film said rival dying on a stretcher. Lou later reports gang violence as a home invasion so he can create a panic-laden story of urban crime creeping into the suburbs, and later engineers a confrontation with the police in a crowded diner so he can film the resulting carnage as gang members, police and innocent civilians die. Finally, Lou follows a car chase and when one of the gang members crashes, Lou lies to his assistant Rick that the gangster is dead, causing Rick to be shot dead by the gangster once he goes over to film the body; the motive was Rick wanted more of the profits. A media sensation with his new company of Video Production News, Lou covers his lack of humanity with a seemingly friendly mask, all the while promising his new employees he'd never ask any of them to do something he wouldn't do himself.
• Strike Commando: Jakoda, head of the Communist Russian forces in Vietnam, intends to kill Mike Ransom slowly and horribly. As the leader of the Russians, Jakoda makes it his job, and pleasure, to torture and kill almost everyone he encounters. In his home base, Jakoda subjects all captives to savage torture with Ransom himself suffering painful electrocution. When Jakoda learns a native village has been sheltering Ransom, he leads his troops there and initiates a massacre of men, women and children, slaughtering everyone except a little boy who befriended Ransom, with the boy surviving long enough to die in Ransom's arms wishing he could have seen Disneyland just once. Jakoda spends the rest of the film trying to kill Ransom and will stop at nothing to kill the "Americanski."
• Bill Harris from season 12's "Behave" is responsible for nearly a dozen rapes. He developed a special interest on one of his victim, Vicki Sayers, and repeatedly tracked her down whenever she was on the verge of putting her life together.
• William Lewis from the season 14 finale and season 15 is a serial rapist and sadistic torturer. His MO is going from state to state, kidnapping, raping and torturing women for hours and even days on end under different aliases, regardless of age. When he was young he watched his babysitter get raped and killed in front of him; he describes it as the best day of his life. Eventually he kidnaps Detective Olivia Benson, forces her to watch as he kills the father and rapes the mother of his defense attorney. After killing a cop and taking Benson to a house to rape her, he takes a maid and young girl hostage. When Benson turns the tables on him, he deliberately tries to provoke her to kill him. During his trial, he makes Olivia relive the experience. After his escape, he kills another cop, rapes a nurse and kidnaps a young girl. When Benson confronts him, he takes her hostage again, but becomes turned off by his initial molestations, so he decides to force her into a game of Russian Roulette.
• Bluebeard: The original incarnation of the titular Bluebeard stands as one of the earliest examples of a vicious killer. Posing as a rich gentlemen to win the heart of a young maiden, Bluebeard seduces the girl into marriage. Bluebeard hands the maiden all the keys to the doors in his mansion, but warns her never to open one particular door. Inevitably, the maiden's curiosity drives her to open the door, revealing Bluebeard as a serial killer who married many women, murdered them by slitting their throats, then hid their bodies in his mansion. Bluebeard finds out, and in a fit of rage, tries to kill the maiden as well before being stopped. With little motivation to couple his spree-killing aside from occasionally being depicted as greedy, Bluebeard defined, and still stands as the most brutal incarnation of, one of the most terrifying modern serial killer tropes.

edited 1st Feb '15 8:42:44 AM by ACW

After re-watch Road to El Dorado, and looking at the arguments against Kahn, I'll just drop him and give him a . He's pretty much just devoted to his religion - a religion with sacrifical belief's and dark magic, but religion non the less - now there's no indication that he knows what he's doing is considered wrong, but if there was, I would have more to argue with.

Alright folks, I've used Excel and the sort feature to make a list of all the pages from here, minus the YMMV, CM usbpages and Sandboxes, etc. In case anyone wants to work on that. Strangely enough, there's still Kamen Rider Monsters. Cut List? Swap?

edited 31st Jan '15 11:16:59 AM by ACW

Big to both Cortes and Kahn, the latter for only crossing the Moral Event Horizon once and the former for not being that heinous by the standards of his time period.

So I still haven't watched Twelve Ounce Mouse yet; haven't had the time for it. But after playing Presentable Liberty, and watching a playthrough of Exoptable Money, I firmly believe that Dr. Money qualifies.

Dr. Money is a greedy Omnicidal Maniac who is responsible for The Plague. After unleashing a deadly virus onto the world, Dr. Money created an expensive antidote in order to cure anyone infected. When it is later revealed that this antidote causes organ failure, he begins to sell (and possibly steal) faulty organs to those who need them in order to increase his wealth, all the while watching as everyone dies from either the virus, the antidote, or the botched organs. After 98% of the world is infected, he experiments on the other 2% by kidnapping them, holding them in solitary confinement, and forcing them to figure out a way to cure the virus. When many of the prisoners start to commit suicide, he tries to rectify the situation by getting the prisoners Happy Buddies, people who are being blackmailed into being the prisoners' friends at the risk of their families' safety. Once most of the world's population is gone besides Dr. Money and the Silent Protagonist, he tries to convince the prisoner to stay in his cell, where he will be happy with his Portable Entertainment Product. Should the protagonist choose to stay, Dr. Money will proceed to harvest all the organs from his body and sell them at an unbelievably high price.

Redeemable Qualities: None. The only thing he loves other than himself is money. He caused The End of the World as We Know It all so he could get rich.

edited 31st Jan '15 12:46:48 PM by Tyk5919

Isn't 12 oz. Mouse a comedy show?

edited 31st Jan '15 1:49:14 PM by AustinDR

@Austin: Yes. But some of the things Shark does in Season 2 (which is when the show got Darker and Edgier) make him a surprisingly trigger-happy villain in what started off as a show that made no sense and had odd humor. He becomes a borderline Omnicidal Maniac near the end.

Oh, okay.

RE: The Kindler thing. The Stranger was made about a year after WW 2 ended, so there were some...concerns over the whole 'escaped Nazi' thing. Kindler is accredited with a great deal of crimes in the films seen via pictures.

The film, btw, is public domain and available here. I'd encourage anyone interested in discussing it to check the film out. As far as historical details go, it's correct that the Nazi bureaucracy was an incredible collection of evil men coming up with the worst ideas. Hitler would have personally approved the policy and was certainly aware of it, but he wasn't much into micro-managing.

ACW: I meant Cortez there.

If we see the pictures, and he has no redeeming qualities, I'll reiterate my for Kindler.

Dr. Money sounds like a keeper.

As for Injun Joe...I need to check out Tom and Huck again. I remember he's a rather vicious murderer and has no issues killing children.

Definite to Tzekel-kan. In fact, I think the guy's barely even evil, just a product of his culture. He does kill his assistant for no real reason, but compared to Cortez, who historically perpetrated a genocide and clearly intended to do so here, he's a small fry.

edited 31st Jan '15 7:39:48 PM by HamburgerTime

Some modifications:

• Date AST Like ^note a spinoff of Date A Live: Minerva Liddell is the former Ace Wizard of Special Sorcery Service and later became a temporary Wizard of Deus.Ex.Machina Industries, which happens to house a dangerous group of mercenaries with no regard for human life as long as they accomplish their missions. Her only apparent motivation in life is to kill and "destroy" whatever she can, including raping and killing children in front of their parents. She doesn't consider the other SSS members to be her friends, and willingly turns on them as soon as they rebel in order to save Artemisia, inflicting various atrocities on them in the process and getting a real kick out of it. She's just as unhinged as a crazy DEM Wizard can get, and dies trying to harm anyone in front of her as much as possible.

edited 31st Jan '15 9:50:32 PM by AnoBakaDesu

Much better.

For Qada's entry, the part from "one specific world", down to "earn control of the land" should probably be in spoilers, as that's a pretty big mid game twist. The actual CM page is fine, it's just the YMMV page that should have it.

Although there's something bugging me about his last world portrayal, it probably isn't enough to disqualify him. Although he does seem to be doing his just job properly, transporting the injured to the airships, and sounding concerned that his leader is going out to face a force that outnumbers them greatly, it's also one of the few times he's been around all the other Black Blades at once. It might simply be the one loop where he wasn't caught in the act.

That works.

edited 1st Feb '15 2:38:23 AM by Ekimmak

I would actually give a to Doctor Money. Despite otherwise qualifying, most of what he does is offscreen and not observed directly or other otherwise.