YMMV/PokemonAnime clean-up

1) Some examples need indentation clean-up.

2) The Takeshi Shudo part of First Installment Wins feels unneeded.

3) The Black-and-White example for Franchise Original Sin is way too long.

4) "Funny Aneurysm" Moment could be combined/shortened since it all revolves around certain ground-moves connected to real-life earthquakes getting banned for use in the anime.

Did the fixes. I meant to do the example indentation the first time but I forgot.

I'm asking about the Gary entry in Fountain of Memes the only meme I;d heard of was him as a Memetic Badass and the entry himself mentions that his game counterpart has more memes than Gary himself

Been trying to avoiding the page itself for many reasons, but one entry kinda confused me:

• Which series is the best one? The big contenders are OS and DP, with just as many saying they are the worst of the worst. Conversely, while few will name BW or XY the best, there remain passionate arguments as to whether they are actually good or bad. AG, however, is almost universally seen as So Okay, It's Average.

Since XY so far has been widely/mostly praised as one of the better sagas and BW... Hasn't, both on the very page and fandom-wide, both of them being lumped together the way they are in that entry seems... Confusing.

So looking back at the initial discussion of the Broken Base entry as a whole, and considering the entry as a whole, I have a few ideas as to how to handle it:

1. Remove XY from the entry entirely until it's over and the fanbase's opinion of it becomes a bit more solidified and finalized.

2. Alternatively, do any of the following to the whole entry since it basically amounts to "every season is viewed by some chunk of the broken base as outright good or outright horrible except AG":

• 2a: Rewrite the whole thing as a more general blanket statement about the sharp fandom divide over which seasons are good and which are bad, without really going into specifics.

• 2b. Just cut the entry.

EDIT: After binging entire thread, in terms of more recent issues I heavily agree with removing or at least using some variation of Very Melon's rewrite of the second Fanon Discontinuity bullet, mainly for reasons Shadao expressed in his post better than I could, though I could elaborate on a few reasons of my own.

edited 18th Oct '15 6:30:18 AM by Umbramatic

I can rewrite that particular Broken Base entry but what's wrong with my rewrite of the second Fanon Discontinuity.

Thanks. And on the latter I actually said your rewrite or something like it would be ideal for replacing the initial entry if it weren't outright deleted, so if you've already replaced it I apologize.

Okay then.

• Which series is the best one? All of them have fans and non-fans for various reasons that have been brought up over the years in the fandom. Actually trying to pin down the answer is basically impossible.

edited 23rd Oct '15 5:54:24 AM by VeryMelon

Looks good to me.

Anyway, I'd also agree the amount of Creator Worship for Takeshi Shudo and his influence on the older series needs to be toned down; is that still a goal here? I know Very Melon helped that along in his proposed rewrite of First Installment Wins.

edited 18th Oct '15 9:02:26 AM by Umbramatic

I don't think there's any of that left on the YMMV page at this point.

OK, good.

I'm also considering proposing a team-up with another cleanup thread to help this one out in at least one respect, but I'd have to discuss with said thread beforehand.

In any case, this would normally be a thread I'd love to help out with regularly because I genuinely like and care about the show and have been wanting to do something about the myriad problems its YMMV page has, but again I've been avoiding said YMMV page as much as possible recently due to stuff tied to my anxiety issues, so whatever I do here will be unfortunately be intermittent at best until I get those in order.

Last call before I take care of the "F" section of the page. Anyone have a problem with my fixes?

"F" section is taken care of. Now for the "G" section.

• Gateway Series: A fair few anime fans and fans of other Pokémon incarnations started with this in their youth.
• Growing the Beard:
  • In Japan, Pokémon: The First Movie showed that Pokémon stories could entertain adults as well as children through compelling characters and interesting storylines - which was one of Takeshi Shudo's goals from the beginning - and the next couple of films followed suit. In the US, the film was dubbed as a straight-up kids' movie and only became popular with adult fans years after its debut, but Pokémon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew more or less filled this role instead.
  • AG was seen as a general improvement over the Original Series after a initial rough start: Ash was generally smarter, the pacing issues were amended by having May seek Pokemon Contests out, and the animation improved over the previous seasons.
  • XY was given a new director after Black and White came under fire, and it shows. It is considered one of the better seasons so far, and hasn't drawn any significant criticism like a few of its predecessors. Not only is the writing and characterization (especially Ash's) a step up from previous seasons, but the Mega Evolution specials exist for those who still find the main episodes to be too childish. The willingness to mix the story up by going against previous story standards, like unevolved water-types, mid-series design changes, and the, if temporary, possession by Ash of a Goodra also keeps the series interesting.
  • The Mega Evolution specials themselves follow this pattern. Act I focused more on action than story, and mostly served as an introduction to the new cast of characters. Act II introduced more backstory and plot elements, including a Plot Twist for fans of the games that the main character is working as an Unwitting Pawn for Lysandre, secretly the leader of Team Flare.
• Guilty Pleasure: Despite all the criticism, quite a few older fans watch and enjoy the series for what it is.

Gateway Series needs to explain how the show was part of the big 3 (itself, Sailor Moon, and Dragonball) that lead to anime become a bit more mainstream and increased the medium's popularity in the West.

At least that's what I think might have happened. Need some second opinions.

The Mega Evolution Specials example can probably be folded into the XY example for Growing The Bread. I personally think the Goodra part is unnecessary to the example, since it's a little too gushy and not really relevant for the comparison.

Guilty Pleasure should look something like this:

• The show has received a lot of negative criticisms over the years for its characterization and writing. Despite this, quite a few older fans enjoy it because [insert something about it that they like, because I legit don't know (I'm a cynical, out-of-touch bastard)].

edited 24th Oct '15 11:49:26 PM by Karxrida

Gateway Series I figure was because the anime came out during a time when Pokemon Red And Blue had taken the United States by storm and turned the franchise into a huge fad that was everywhere in the late 90s.

Kids in the US wanted to watch the anime simply because it was another part of the whole Pokemon craze back then. This would of course lead kids to watching other anime shows that were huge at the time; Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon and Digimon in particular, and was then pushed even further by making Naruto and Bleach such a huge deal. One Piece was also somewhat in the mix, but 4kids' butchered dub ended up destroying its American audience (though subtitles and Funimations dub has been repairing the damage since then).

edited 25th Oct '15 5:10:08 PM by Retloclive

How could we improve my Subbing Versus Dubbing example? It looks like a Wall of Text, even though I was only trying to say "at first averted, later played straight now that the Japanese version is more easily accessible". Would I be able to condense it without it being a Zero Context Example?

• Pokémon is an interesting variation; at the time the series first went international, lack of development of the Internet made the raw Japanese versions of anime and comparisons with the dub (let along Fansubs) not as easy to access in the West as they are now. So many fans were not aware of any differences between the Japanese version of the anime and dubbed version. But then early 2000 (mid-Orange Islands) Dogasu's Backpack launched, whose biggest feature is an easy-to-use Japanese-to-dub comparison for Pokémon, basically "Yu-Gi-Oh Uncensored: Pokémon Edition". Within a few years, 4Kids Entertainment's banning and censorship of episodes like Beauty and the Beach, music replacement, and radical editing of Pokémon: The First Movie became common knowledge. Still, many still preferred the dub, and the otherwise-criticized 4Kids still gets a pass on Pokémon, mostly because of nostalgia and the fact that it's actually one of their most faithful adaptations. So while the main series doesn't suffer much for it, a few episodes and movies have it quite bad - such as the first movie, with fans' perception of Mewtwo and the movie itself being affected by 4Kids' changes, and the dub getting a dismal rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Possibly justified due to 4Kids' Michael Haigney admitting his cluelessness with regards to the series and 4Kids' dub in general being aimed at a narrower demographic than Shudo intended; also, contrary to popular belief, the early Japanese dub did contain a bit more Parental Bonus humor, though not enough to make for a completely different series. Still, Dogasu's Backpack has made many fans go off to the Japanese version, and when TPCi took over, the dub became more of an Acceptable Target for criticism and many Western fans now watch the Fansubs, especially since XY when the music replacement got more prominent.

Subbing Versus Dubbing reads like a Useful Note, and probably should be one.

After think it over for a month, I think the G section is perfectly fine and doesn't need any changes to it. So I'll just post the H section next.

• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • One city in the Kanto saga features mass disappearances of young children. The culprit for this missing persons case? Hypno, who would later gain a reputation for being a Memetic Molester.
  • "Volcanic Panic" has Ash and co. try to stop the eruption of Cinnabar Island's volcano. In Pokémon Gold and Silver, Cinnabar Island has not only erupted, it's buried the whole island. There was only one year in between the Japanese debuts of the episode and the game.
  • During the penultimate episode of XY, Olympia predicts that Kalos will be facing a great crisis. She's actually referring to the events of XY&Z, but one real life month later, Paris was struck with terrorist attacks.
• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • In the first episode, Gary boasts about how he got the best starter Pokémon from his grandfather Professor Oak which was later revealed to be a Squirtle. Turns out according to Science, he was right. Troper's Digest: Squirtle has the best overall match-ups against the games' gyms, and is favored by Speedrunners for its good movepool, including moves like Dig, Mega Punch, and Surf.
  • Despite Pikachu not being officially part of the trifecta of Kanto starters, the revelation that Gary's starter was a Squirtle makes people realize that it was Ash who has the type advantage. ^note A complete inversion of a tradition in the games. Of course, the fact that Ash's Charizard was his strongest team member during their climactic 6-on-6 probably has something to do with it.
  • In Episode 3 overall, Ash calls out Team Rocket for sending out two Pokémon at once because that's cheating. Misty suggests that Ash do the same, but he worries because double battles aren't in the League rules...yet.
  • Episode 5 has Ash defeating Brock's Onix with a Thunder Shock after said attack sets off the sprinkler system in the Pewter Gym and soaked Onix in water, allowing it's ground immunity to be bypassed. Gen 5 introduces the move Soak, which changes the target's type to Water, which is weak against Electric.
  • All that talk about Brock being a Casanova Wannabe...when HG/SS updated his look to make him a true Bishōnen.
  • In an early episode, Ash asks Brock what he knows about the local gym leaders, as he wants to be prepared. He specifically says to succeed, one must "know yourself, and know your adversary!". Brock is impressed, before Ash notes he "got that one from Dexter!". He's referring to his Pokédex, but still, it describes that character's er, "work" philosophy quite accurately.
  • Episode 8 features A.J., an unofficial gym leader who puts his Pokémon through Training from Hell by fastening them with a "strength intensifier", a restraint that unlocks a Pokémon's potential but restricts movement. In Generation 3, cue the Macho Brace, an actual held item that...unlocks a Pokémon's potential but restricts movement. In-game art of the Macho Brace suggests it actually is the same item.
  • Goes hand in hand one of the "Harsher" entries: the gang's first impression of the eponymous Pokémon in the episode "Charmander the Stray Pokémon"? "I think that this Charmander has an attitude problem." Hilarious, because that very Charmander would later turn out to be the gentlest of Ash's starter Pokémon...and harsh, because, well, who else would it evolve into 32 episodes later?
  • In a season one episode, Jessie and James chases Ash and co underwater using a small mouth instrument that allows them to breath. Courtesy of Korean designer Jeabyun Yeon, that thing actually exists now.◊
  • In "A Chansey Operation" back during Season 1, the doctor recommends Ash and his friends could become competent doctors (being impressed by their handling of the sick Pokémon while he was out), but they choose to keep following their respective dreams. Come the end of DP, Brock decides to become a Pokémon Doctor.
  • An earlier episode had Ash, Brock, and Character of the Day Suzy denouncing the idea of making Pokémon look flashy by dressing them up with make-up and accessories, saying that it diminished their inner beauty. Misty and Team Rocket went against this view, and were made to look wrong for it. Come Generation IV and we have Super Contests, which partly depend on picking out accessories in order to garner points, and Dress-Up Rooms, which let the player go wild with accessories and backgrounds that sometimes may move and be flashy. This is taken even further in Generation V, where the Pokémon Musicals rely solely on the types of accessories that Pokémon can wear in order to make them stand out from the rest of the performers, with Trainers only able to decide to toss away an accessory twice during the entire musical number.
    • Then again, Suzy's reappearance in Johto did say that making Pokémon look outwardly beautiful and fashionable is okay so long as the Pokémon consents to it and the human doesn't forget about the Pokémon's inner worth.
  • The first season episode "Showdown At Dark City" features a pair of gyms competing for the right to be made official. Both sides use underhanded tactics to sabotage the other gym, up to and including sending out multiple Pokémon at once to physically assault the opponent. In the end, Nurse Joy reveals herself and states that neither of them deserve to be a gym. This was written before Dark became an official type in the series and before Beat Up became a genuine Dark-type move.
  • During the battle between Ash and Misty regarding who got to keep Togepi, Psyduck barged out...again...and Bulbasaur made short work of him by using "Tickle". This was during G1; Tickle later became a real move in G3.
  • In The Tower of Terror, Ash and Pikachu got turned into ghosts by a wild Gastly, Haunter and Gengar. Years later, Generation VI introduced the move Trick-or-Treat, which changes another Pokémon's type to Ghost.
  • Anime!Lorelei only appeared during the Orange Islands saga. Come FRLG, we later learn Game!Lorelei's home is in the Sevii Islands. Coincidence?
  • In "The Ties that Bind", the announcer proclaims that Heracross' victory over Magmar was contributed to his "Guts". When game abilities are introduced, what would be one of Heracross' in-game abilities?
  • "Why? Wynaut?": the one time Ash had a justifiable means of jumping a hundred feet through the air, Team Rocket think it's impossible. What about their opinions on the other times it's happened?
  • Wobbuffet really is the strongest member of Team Rocket, but Jessie just can't use him properly. It may be idiocy on her part, but, until Generation IV, the physical/special mechanics weren't exactly precise (in one episode of Johto League Champions, Duplica mentions that Counter reflects physical attacks like Bite, which was technically inaccurate at the time, but has since been born out by the physical/special attack split in Generation IV). Contrast how well he's being used in Kalos.^note which corresponds to Gen VI
  • The Team Shot at the end of the Black and White OP. Oshawott the Attention Whore is standing right behind Pikachu.
  • Georgia's hatred towards the (back then) broken Dragon-type Pokémon and her dedication to building an anti-Dragon squad becomes this in Generation VI when Dragon-types are completely overshadowed by Fairy-types as the most powerful type, leading to some players act like her and started to develop alternative strategies as well as building entire teams to specifically counter fairies and nothing else.
  • The anime always makes a big deal about contest rivalries so it's funny when in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire when Lisia says there aren't rivals in contests.
  • Back in The School of Hard Knocks, Misty dreamed about Paris and Eiffel Tower. Fast forward 16 years, and we're introduced to Kalos, which is France-based.
  • Iris once mistook Ash's Charizard for a dragon-type (but can you blame her?). Pokémon X and Y would introduce Mega Charizard X, which is a dragon-type.
  • The song Heroes (We Could Be) by Alesso and sung by Tove Lo wouldn't sound out of place in Pokémon. In fact, from the title alone, it sounds just like We Will Be Heroes, the English theme to Battle Dimension, and the similarity carries over to the chorus and lyrical themes.
• Hypocritical Fandom: To an extent. A lot of fans criticize the series' use of Pokémon Speak, but when Pokémon Speak is used for characters in more "mature" series (such as for Groot or Hodor), fans love it and the Pokémon Speak character likely becomes an Ensemble Dark Horse. Possibly justified in that adult-oriented series play Pokémon Speak for laughs and uniqueness, while the Pokémon anime doesn't.^note It's often believed that the Pokémon Speak is so that children can learn the Pokémon's names more easily so they know which toys to buy, but this hasn't been officially stated.

Hmmm, I suggest merging the sub-point of Suzy's opinions of Pokémon looks with the main point or just remove it all together. As for the Hypocritical Fandom, I think it needs some research on the whole Pokémon Speak, particularly on what the Japanese audience view Pokémon Speak in the anime as. There are several instances where Pokémon Speak is used to make Japanese puns based on the names of the Pokemon (Wobbafett's Japanese name in particular is a derived from a catchphrase of a famous Japanese comedian). Also, the note at the end is making an assumption that it done as a marketing gimmick, but quite frankly there's no proof to that claim and it seems to be from a non-Japanese perspective. I do not know what's the overall stance of Pokémon Speak is in Japan, but I do know there are other characters that originated from Japan that use Pokémon Speak (Yoshi!).

The YMMV.Pokemon The First Movie page has the same problems that the main YMMV anime page does, particularly the Takeshi Shudo gushing and bashing.

edited 21st Jan '16 6:03:32 AM by lalalei2001

A couple of comments on some of the prior edits:

Misty's entries for Alternative Character Interpretation now seem to read like statements of fact. The other entries show at least a couple of sides of the respective argument.

• All I'd do with the first Misty entry is append it to note that it was often (wrongly) interpreted as a case of Chickification, as another commenter pointed out earlier.
• The second entry I'd rewrite as follows:
  Misty's apparent lack of battling skill came about by a lack of opportunities due to Ash being the main character and Misty having a poorly defined goal.^note Psyduck being treated as alternately Plucky Comic Relief and a Deus ex Machina didn't help matters. The Common Knowledge of her being a Gym Leader^note She didn't actually become one in this continuity until after she and Ash split; her sisters were the Gym Leaders prior to that point, which she herself believed, made this lack of opportunity seem like she was an example of Faux Action Girl.

And, yes, I was the one who leveled the claim that Misty was a Faux Action Girl.

Also, while the entry for Family-Unfriendly Aesop is viable, I also feel that the aesop itself is Broken due to the "different training style" clashing with the series' theme of The Power of Friendship. Or, rather, that specific FUA breaks the theme of the series

Finally, even though the thread isn't down there yet, the Strangled by the Red String entry contradicts itself by saying that Ash's character hasn't changed. (The specific reference is potholed to Oblivious to Love which itself is an instance of Square Peg Round Trope in the entry's context.) The point is that until Ash's character has demonstrably changed, this isn't the right Trope. Now, I could make the argument that Serena's Romance Arc is a Token Romance and/or a Romantic Plot Tumor relative to the series' normal Relationship Ceiling; it just doesn't meet the parameters of Strangled by the Red String (yet).^note In fact, note #3 on that page specifically references RPT as a Trope that could be confused with it.

As for the current slate, all I'd do is demote the reversal by Suzy to a note ^note this type at the end of her portion of the entry.

Wasn't Misty mentioned by the creator as being supposed to be a Faux Action Girl? I suppose that may assist to claims acting like fact rather than opinion.

edited 1st Apr '16 8:26:30 PM by Psi001

She was intended as one, yes.

Sorry if I'm getting too ahead... proposing this MEH example from Chronicles:

• In "Cerulean Blues", the Invincible Pokémon Brothers cross it when they call shenanigans on being expelled (and rightly so, too) from the Pokémon League in the most outrageous manner possible: they turn their frustration—and their Pokémon—on a caged Gyarados, and when Misty dives in to save him, they refuse to let up, not caring one whistle that in continuing their assault now they'd most likely murder her. To put it in perspective: this is not the first time Misty's been threatened with death. However, this is the first time she was in serious danger of being murdered, and it's implied that the barrage of attacks being fired by their Pokémon on their direct orders, and not the fact that she's underwater, is what's endangering her.

Got a quite a bit of Word Cruft there.

Right... how would we fix it (apart from removing the Word Cruft itself, that is)?