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RallyBot2 Since: Nov, 2013
26th Mar, 2019 04:42:21 AM

Haven't read anything by Asimov, but Wikipedia doesn't have a page for the work or even mention its existence on its page on the Foundation series. Are you sure it can't just be part of the series page?

Asimov was American. The "most recent name" rule only applies to translations of non-English works.

If disambiguation is necessary, disambiguate by year; if that is not possible, by author.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
26th Mar, 2019 05:04:22 AM

    draft 
First published as "Dead Hand" in Astounding Science Fiction (April 1945 issue), by Isaac Asimov. This Science Fiction Novella takes place after the events of "The Merchant Princes" and in 1996, it earned second place in the 1946 Retro Hugo Award (losing to "The Mule"). After many decades of growth, the Foundation has expanded near enough to the borders of the shrinking Empire, and despite being only a quarter of its previous size, the Empire is still much larger than the fledgling Foundation. How can the dead hand of Hari Seldon defeat a living will?

General Bel Riose, banished to the edge of the Empire, is the Military Governor of Siwenna. Siwenna appeared in "The Merchant Princes", where Hober Mallow visited Onum Barr. General Riose is visiting his son, Ducem Barr, who is now an old man. Barr convinces Riose of the existence of the Foundation, a galactic nation who are foretold to conquer the galaxy. In disguise, General Riose travels there and confirms much of what Barr told him. So to defend the great Galactic Empire (and to engage in the glorious war that he wants), Riose announces a campaign against the Foundation with ten massive Empire ships.

The reports he sends back to Emperor Cleon II results in Privy Secretary Brodrig, the Evil Chancellor, being sent to keep an eye on him during the offensives. Once General Riose begins his attack upon the territory of the Foundation, Lathan Devers, a merchant for the Foundation with his own ship, is quickly captured. Brought back to General Riose's forward base, he's interrogated by each of them in turn; Riose, Barr, and Brodrig. He's stuck in the base for months while the Empire's fleet captures more and more of the Foundation's territory. Each planet is hard-won, and maintains a constant resistance to his troops. Despite this, General Riose tells trader Devers that they've reached Loris, one of the Four Kingdoms, nearly twenty parsecs from Terminus itself.

Desperate to save the Foundation, Devers and Barr escape, but what can they do to stop the power of the entire Imperial fleet against Terminus or Siwenna?

In 1952, "The General" was revised and included as the first half of Foundation and Empire. Not to be confused with The General Series, another retelling of the 6th century Eastern Roman Empire (also known as the Byzantium Empire) campaign by Flavius Belisarius.


"The General" provides examples of:

  • 2-D Space: General Riose is averting the two-dimensional concept of space by organizing his ships into an Inclosure, a 3D sphere of ships where the enemy cannot escape. As the Inclosure tightens, he advances through the Foundation's territory and maintains a supply line for his fleet.
  • Antagonist Title: The title refers to General Bel Riose of the Galactic Empire, who wages war against the Foundation. The final line of Chapter 3 summarizes the conflict; "a dead hand against a living will." The 'dead hand’ refers to Seldon's Plan while 'living will' refers to General Riose's determination.
  • Blind Jump: Devers tries to escape from General Riose's fleet after escaping from their forward base by making hyperspace jumps without proper planning. He explains the danger to Ducem Barr.
  • Bribe Backfire:
    • When Privy Secretary Brodrig interrogates the Foundation merchant Devers, he expects to be bribing the Privy Secretary into working against the Emperor. What he doesn't expect is Brodrig trying to bribe him, but he adapts and convinces Brodrig that General Riose is actually trying to overthow the emperor and take control of the Empire. This convinces Brodrig to support Riose instead of reporting it to Emperor Cleon II.
    • When Devers goes to Trantor, capital of the Galactic Empire, he and Barr try to bribe their way up the ladder of bureaucrats so they can see the Emperor and get General Bel Riose recalled. They eventually run into one who's actually an Imperial Police lieutenant. He's under orders to arrest them for conspiracy to overthrow the Emperor, not for bribing officials. Their effort was effectively pointless, because the only reason Emperor Cleon II had survived as long as he had was to be suspicious of everything his subordinates did, and they had been using Privy Secretary Brodrig's funds.
  • Decadent Court: The inner court of Emperor Cleon II is full of sycophants and back-stabbers, each looking to secure their position for when the Emperor dies and possibly taking the throne for themselves. Despite his painful and incurable disease, Cleon keeps an eye out for possible revolts and betrayal, including young generals popular with the military.
  • Distant Sequel: The events in this story begins over forty years after "The Merchant Princes" (roughly 200 F.E.), and Ducem Barr (the offscreen son of an old man) is now, himself, an old man. Hober Mallow is gone, replaced by Sennett Forell (his bastard son). The other characters have all died from old age.
  • Encyclopedia Exposita: When published in Foundation (1951), three Encyclopedia Galactica entries were added. Chapter 1 has an entry on Bel Riose, chapter 2 has an entry on the Foundation, and chapter 4 has an entry on Cleon II.
  • Evil Cannot Comprehend Good: Privy Secretary Brodrig dismisses General Riose's (honest) claim to be devoted to the Imperium — the only reason Brodrig can imagine for embarking on a war is to seize power for oneself. Devers confirms his belief, so he begins sucking up to Riose by getting him the reinforcements the general wants.
  • Evil Chancellor: Privy Secretary Brodrig provides an unusual inversion because he is as selfish and scheming as any other member of Emperor Cleon II's Decadent Court, but because everyone aside from Cleon hates him, he is also utterly loyal and helpful as a result. He's never really given an opportunity to betray Cleon II (and he's arrested and executed for conspiracy to commit treason before he can do more than dream of it).
    The low-born, faithful Brodrig; faithful because he was hated with a unanimous and cordial hatred that was the only point of agreement between the dozen cliques that divided his court. Brodrig - the faithful favorite, who had to be faithful, since unless he owned the fastest speed-ship in the Galaxy and took to it the day of the Emperor's death, it would be the radiation-chamber the day after. — Narration
  • Finale Title Drop: When this story was revised for publication in Foundation and Empire, the original title "Dead Hand" was reused for chapter 3, "The Dead Hand". The last line of Chapter 3 is General Riose summarizing the conflict; "a dead hand against a living will."
  • Full-Circle Revolution: Lathan Devers, a Trader from the Foundation, points out that when one government is toppled, all it really does is replace who's in charge, and people like him would be pretty screwed anyway. That's why he doesn't mind if the Empire wins the war against the Foundation. He is a spy sent to find out as much as possible about the Empire, so he's saying this to General Riose to gain his trust.
  • Guile Hero: Lathan Devers allows himself to be captured by General Riose in order to spy on events from the Empire's side. There are a couple of instances where he makes use of blasters and shields, but he spends most of his time trying to convince people to see things the way he wants them to. He convinces General Riose that he's a mercenary merchant without patriotism, he convinces Privy Secretary Brodrig that Riose is chasing the secrets of cheap transmutation, and he bribes the guards into giving him extra information.
  • Hero Antagonist: General Bel Riose (the titular character) is surprisingly likable for an enemy of the Foundation, and the narrative begins with his perspective. He demonstrates himself to be fairly noble and philosophical. His main concern is reigniting the glory of the Empire, with no ulterior motives whatsoever, which makes his inevitable defeat by politics in the inner court of the Empire rather heartbreaking.
  • Hyper-Competent Sidekick: General Bel Riose apparently exemplifies this trait (a loyal subordinate who is more powerful than their superior) so thoroughly that his emperor, Cleon II, is later remembered merely as "Riose's Emperor". Much like the character's real-life inspiration, Belisarius, this results in his recall. Unlike Belisarius, however, Riose is executed for treason, because his competency puts the Emperor at risk of revolt.
  • King Bob the Nth:
    • The current Emperor, Cleon II, follows in memory of Cleon I, under whom the Empire reached its zenith. Cleon II likely surpassed his namesake, because Cleon I was not a forceful monarch and he preferred letting his First Ministers do the real governing, but Cleon II was a very active and powerful emperor.
    • Ducem Barr mentions Emperor Daluben IV, who reigned during Hari Seldon's development of psychohistory.
    • The narration introducing Cleon II mentions a previous Galactic Emperor; Stanel VI.
  • Meaningful Name:
    • Emperor Cleon II is in charge of the Galactic Empire while it is strong enough to assault the Foundation, but he is the first and last one to do so. His namesake was Emperor Cleon I, who was the last emperor before the Empire began losing territory.
    • Bel Riose is loosely based on General Belisarius, of the 6th century Eastern Roman Empire (also known as the Byzantium Empire). Both are/were loyal members of their emperor, and led campaigns to reclaim lost territory.
  • Monster of the Week: General Bel Riose is a massive threat against the Foundation, fully immune to their previous tactics, as political maneuvers are useless on him, the Foundation's religion is long dead and nuclear embargo can do nothing to him as he has Empire technology. He manages to severely weaken the Foundation's hold on the Periphery, and even lay siege to the Foundation's doorstep by taking some of the Four Kingdoms, its inner core worlds. He's also surprisingly likable, fairly noble, and philosophical. His main concern is reigniting the glory of the Empire, with no ulterior motives whatsoever, which makes his inevitable defeat by the politics of the inner court of the Empire rather heartbreaking.
  • Morton's Fork: Any Emperor who tries to go against the Foundation themselves will have to either return home or lose their throne to a usurper. Therefore, the emperors must remain on Trantor, and only an Imperial general can threaten the Foundation. However, if the general is strong enough to challenge the Foundation, yet didn't take over the Empire himself, that means the Emperor is one who knows how to remain in power... which includes removing any underlings who might grow strong and popular enough to challenge them - like, for example, by becoming a conqueror.
  • The Namesake:
    • The original title, "Dead Hand", refers to Hari Seldon's Plan created by psychohistory. Seldon has been dead for centuries, yet Ducem Barr contends that it is more powerful than the Galactic Empire.
    • The revised title, "The General", refers to General Bel Riose of the Galactic Empire, who hears about Seldon's Plan from Ducem Barr but wishes to conquer the Foundation despite it.
  • Orcus on His Throne: General Riose is a strong subject who served a politically savvy, but incurably ill, Emperor. When he tries to conquer the Foundation, we learn why psychohistory predicts that the collapsing Galactic Empire cannot do so. The Galactic Emperor cannot leave their throne (represented by Trantor) to lead troops into battle and expand the territory of the Empire because civil war will draw them back home. If the Emperor is weak, they will be deposed by stronger subjects. If the Emperor is strong, they cannot allow strong subjects to grow because they risk being deposed like a weak Emperor.
  • Orwellian Retcon: This story was originally published as "Dead Hand" in Astounding Science Fiction. When it was republished in Foundation and Empire as "The General", many minor edits occured, such as giving every chapter a name (Chapter 3 reuses "The Dead Hand") and replacing italicized exposition with Encyclopedia Galactica entries.
  • Proud Merchant Race: The Foundation had enjoyed a booming economy and expansion in the forty years since Master Trader Hober Mallow had a single ship and crew under his command. Now his illegitimate son, Sennett Forell, has a fleet of trading ships that answer to him, and works with a cabal of similarly powerful executives.
    "They have built up a filthy trading community that curls its tentacles about the systems further than their toy ships dare reach. For parsecs, their Traders - which is what their agents call themselves - penetrate."General Bel Riose
  • Reassigned to Antarctica: In chapter 1, General Riose explains to Ducem Barr that the reason why he had been posted in Siwenna is because he was politically foolish. He had joined the military to fight and defend the Empire, yet being raised through the ranks meant elbow-rubbing with the nobility, until they banished him to the outer provinces of the current Galactic Empire.
    "That's why they sent me here. I'm too troublesome at court. I don't fit in with the etiquette. I offend the dandies and the lord admirals, but I'm too good a leader of ships and men to be disposed of shortly by being marooned in space. So Siwenna is the substitute. It's a frontier world; a rebellious and a barren province. It is far away, far enough away to satisfy all."General Bel Riose
  • Recycled Title: When this story was revised for publication in Foundation and Empire as "The General", the original title "Dead Hand" was reused for chapter 3, "The Dead Hand".
  • Red Baron:
    • The Encyclopedia Galactica entry for General Riose references a nickname given to him by historical records, "The Last of the Imperials". The title is a reference to his role in conquering several star systems and expanding the territory of the otherwise Vestigial Empire.
    • The Encyclopedia Galactica entry for Emperor Cleon II references two titles. The first is "Cleon the Great", because his leadership caused a brief surge of political and artistic innovation, but the other title is "Riose's Emperor", due to the General directly attacking the Foundation while the Emperor was restricted to the capitol planet Trantor due to a painful and incurable disease. Foundation citizens, therefore, remember him only in relation to General Riose.
  • Single-Biome Planet: This story has two mentions of farm planets: the agricultural planets of the Pleiades and the twenty agricultural planets that supply food to Trantor.
  • Soap Opera Disease: Emperor Cleon II suffers from some painful and unknown disease which no one can cure.
  • Space Is an Ocean: General Bel Riose uses giant spaceships to encircle (more like "ensphere") a solar system just like Real Life Admirals use their fleet to blockade an island.
  • Spin-Offspring: Sennett Forell, one of the richest of the Association of Independent Traders, is known to be a distant relative of Hober Mallow, from "The Merchant Princes" (actually his bastard son). He appears in only two chapters, being the one to send Lathan Devers to spy on General Riose.
  • Strong Empire, Shriveled Emperor: Cleon II is the last strong Emperor of the Galactic Empire, yet he's bedridden due an unknown and painful disease. He's highly skilled at managing a court full of ambitious sycophants and politicians, but cannot even hold court every day.
  • Tall Poppy Syndrome: After winning battle after battle, showing himself to be a powerful and popular leader, General Bel Riose is summoned before the Emperor and killed (off-screen). It gets pointed out that a strong general would've overthrown a weak emperor, and a weak general wouldn't be able to beat the Foundation in battle. With a strong Emperor on the throne, they must cull their strongest subjects due to fear of overthrow and rebellion.
  • This Page Will Self-Destruct: The Foundation's secret messages are sent on a medium that oxidizes to gas within a minute after exposure to air. They're kept safe inside an airtight "personal capsule". Lathan Devers thinks that because the Empire isn't able to oxidize their messages is evidence that the Foundation is technologically superior, despite the Empire having more power.
  • Unintentional Backup Plan: Devers constructs an elaborate plan to defeat General Bel Riose and the First Galactic Empire, only for it to do nothing. Instead, political infighting on Trantor wins the war for them. This is taken as a sign of the inevitability of the Seldon Plan's success.
  • Unwitting Pawn: General Bel Riose actually thought he would win and came close, but was inevitably called back to Trantor and executed on grounds of believed disloyalty. The pawn here is Emperor Cleon II, who could've trusted in his subordinate (although historical evidence said that he'd be betrayed sooner or later, and executing overly successful subordinates was the only way to survive).
  • You Can't Fight Fate: The protagonists' efforts to stop the General Riose from defeating the Foundation end in failure at best. Instead, it's a demonstration of how powerful the Seldon Plan is; no matter how powerful the general, no matter how powerful the emperor, the First Foundation cannot be defeated by the First Galactic Empire.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RallyBot2 Since: Nov, 2013
26th Mar, 2019 06:46:53 AM

That's certainly enough to merit its own page.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
26th Mar, 2019 07:27:53 AM

Since it was published under two different titles, the relevant rule is to use the most recent English title. We don't have a different rule for originally French works with multiple titles versus originally English works with multiple titles. I'm asking for advice on which method of disambiguation is best, or an exception to the rule to make disambiguation easier.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
26th Mar, 2019 08:29:46 AM

Why is going by year "a poor method of disambiguation" in this case?

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010
26th Mar, 2019 08:32:30 AM

My guess is because one of them is a series of books, thus "year" is a bit inaccurate.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
26th Mar, 2019 11:30:28 AM

Were the page for the series as a whole I'd agree. This is a single page for a single work of that series.

Could "The General (Foundation)" work as an alternative?

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
26th Mar, 2019 12:58:43 PM

[up][up] pretty much

  • The page for David Drake and S. M. Stirling is for a series that began in 1991 with the first book titled The Forge. The original cover called the series The General, while more recent republications have used The General Series or not mentioned it on the cover.
    Year is unclear due to being a series published over ten books and 17 years
  • The draft page for Isaac Asimov's work was originally published as "Dead Hand" in 1945, and republished as "The General" in 1952.
    Year is unclear due to year of publication under that name or year of original publication

Yes, The General Asimov, The General Foundation, and The General Novella would be adequate disambiguations, but it's only half of the problem, since we're not supposed to treat existing pages preferentially. If we make an exception and put the page under Literature.Dead Hand, then The General wouldn't need to be moved because no works are being disambiguated.

Edited by crazysamaritan Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Reymma Since: Feb, 2015
26th Mar, 2019 02:29:53 PM

My own choice would be to have a single article for all nine classic Foundation stories, since they are so short. But if they have separate articles, it would be best to append "Foundation" to them all in the title in some way, not only for disambiguation but because most readers know them as the Foundation, Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation trilogy. Something like a custom title of The General (Foundation).

Edited by Reymma Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
26th Mar, 2019 08:26:33 PM

Since crazysamaritan poked me in PM...

Not sure if it matters any, but the Drake/Stirling series is referred to by its publisher as "The General Series".

Perhaps use that for the D/S series, to free up just "The General"?

(Whether the Foundation story should have its own page I dunno, never read any of the stories in that series.)

All your safe space are belong to Trump
KeithM Since: Jan, 2001
26th Mar, 2019 08:35:42 PM

I would vote for renaming The General (Drake and Stirling) as "The General Series", which would be in line with already existing articles such as "The Belisarius Series", and I'd group the Foundation stories, especially the ones making up the original volumes, under one heading for the Foundation Series, as that's the title it's generally known as in the SF community.

Arivne Since: Jan, 2001
27th Mar, 2019 01:15:26 AM

^ x 10 Some corrections for the proposed page:

Edited by Arivne
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
27th Mar, 2019 04:42:18 AM

^ thank you, corrected :)


^^+ Looks like strong support for The General Series and "The General (Foundation)". Thank you all.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Carnildo Since: Jan, 2001
29th Mar, 2019 01:21:43 AM

I don't think adding an entry for Asimov's The General is worthwhile. As far as I can tell from Wikipedia and ISFDB, it was never published as a standalone novella under that title. It was published as Dead Hand in Astounding, but it only ever appeared under the title The General as the first half of Foundation and Empire.

Edited by Carnildo
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
29th Mar, 2019 05:23:42 AM

  1. There Is No Such Thing as Notability — it's like an entire episode getting a page
  2. How to Write an Example — Short works like individual songs, TV show episodes, short stories, short poems, essays or chapters use "quotation marks".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Nohbody Since: Jan, 2001
29th Mar, 2019 06:58:54 AM

How tropable is it? Speaking in general (ahem), if a work that's part of a series has only a small handful of tropes it doesn't necessarily make sense to do a separate page for that work instead of as part of the series page.

(As I said, haven't read, so no idea.)

All your safe space are belong to Trump
crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
29th Mar, 2019 08:08:04 AM

Well, the draft that I provided in this thread has ~40 trope examples, while The General Series(which lasts ten novel-length books) barely has 80. I don't think that counts as a stub. I was considering splitting off a character page for the series, but I hadn't decided yet. Is there a notability rule for episodes/novellas that I need to be familiar with?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Carnildo Since: Jan, 2001
29th Mar, 2019 09:48:35 PM

My objection to troping Asimov's The General is that it seems similar to troping The Two Towers: it's just part of a work. Either trope the standalone version under its standalone title of Dead Hand, or trope it as part of Foundation and Empire.

crazysamaritan MOD Since: Apr, 2010
24th Nov, 2019 11:31:23 AM

UPDATE: I'll be launching "The General" within a week.

Unless there's multiple requests to trope this work under "Dead Hand", I'll be making Literature.The General a disambiguation between The General Series and "The General (Foundation)".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
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