Two indexes that seem to both be about knights

Knight in Shining Tropes and Sir Index of Tropes. Are they the same, and should therefore be merged? And if they are distinct, should we rename one to make the difference(s) clear?

Did you look at the pages, or just the names? The trope lists are nowhere near identical, and neither are the descriptions of the indexes.

Sir Index of Tropes is about knights.

• Black Knight
• Blood Knight
• Boogie Knights
• Failure Knight
• Knight Errant
• Knight Fever
• The Knights Hospitallers
• Knight in Sour Armour
• Knight In Shining Armour
• The Knights Templar
• Knight Templar
  • Knight Templar Big Brother
  • Knight Templar Parent
• The Teutonic Knights
• The Knights Who Say "Squee!"
• Knighting
• Magic Knight
• Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Trailer
• Snark Knight

Knight in Shining Tropes is about "the set of tropes that cluster around Knight Templar: the forces of light in hardcore mode, excessively or otherwise. "

• A Father to His Men
• All a Part of the Job
• And It Worked
• Attack! Attack! Attack!
• The Cape
• The Champion
• Church Militant
• The Fettered
• Good Is Boring (but it beats the alternative)
• Good Is Not Dumb
• Good Is Not Nice
• Harmony Versus Discipline (Discipline)
• Hero Antagonist
• Heroic Sacrifice
  • Taking the Bullet
  • Jumping on a Grenade
• Holy Hand Grenade
• Honor Before Reason
• Incorruptible Pure Pureness
• Inspector Javert
• I Will Protect Her
• Keep the Reward
• Knight Errant
• Knight in Shining Armor
• Knight in Sour Armor
• Lawful Good (although not interested in secular law)
• Lawful Stupid (more or less common depending on the work)
• Light Is Good
• Light The Way
• Lord Error-Prone
• Machiavelli Was Wrong
• Magic Knight
• Martyrdom Culture
• Martyr Without a Cause
• More Hero than Thou
• Noble Demon
• Order Versus Chaos (Order)
• The Paragon
• Proud Warrior Race Guy
• Saintly Church
• Scary Dogmatic Aliens
• Screw the Money, I Have Rules!
• Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right!
• Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism (Idealistic)
• The Stoic
• Think Nothing of It
• To Be Lawful or Good
• Villainous Valor
• Warrior Monk
• Well-Intentioned Extremist (what often happens when characters like this go wrong)
  • Knight Templar (and what happens when they get fully blinded by their zeal)
• What You Are in the Dark
• Worthy Opponent

edited 7th Oct '10 3:35:39 PM by Madrugada

I looked at the descriptions, and one said too little, while the other said too much. They need rewriting.

Plus if you assumed it was just the names that made them seem alike, I did bring up renaming.

This is your original; post:

Are they the same, and should therefore be merged? And if they are distinct, should we rename one to make the difference(s) clear?

The pages make it very clear that they are not the same. If you already knew that, why did you even ask it?

edited 7th Oct '10 4:14:41 PM by Madrugada

I didn't already know that. I just brought up renaming as another option in case they were.

That's why I put "seem" in the title, as I wasn't sure.

Misunderstandings aside, the names do seem needlessly similar. renaming one of them doesn't seem out of the question.

The one about Knight Templar tropes should be renamed.

Also, I'm not sure how that should be an index instead of just a list of tropes on the Knight Templar page about traits the character often shows.

edited 7th Oct '10 5:50:51 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'd say to rename Knight in Shining Tropes to Chivalrous Tropes, Virtuous Tropes, or Paladin Tropes since their main theme appears to be the knightly ideal.

But if that is the case, how is a list of tropes about knights different from tropes about the knightly ideal?

Or do you mean just the concept of chivalry?

edited 7th Oct '10 6:00:47 PM by DragonQuestZ

They seem different enough to remain separate indexes. But some re-working, and a possible re-name for one or both, might be in order.

Sir Index of Tropes has a misleading description, as it isn't even about knights. It is any trope with "knight" or "sir" in the title. Blood Knight, Snark Knight, Knight in Sour Armor, Boogie Knights... None of those require the character to be a knight, some of them have nothing to do with knights.

Knight Templar is not simply "knightly ideals". It's "the forces of light in hardcore mode, excessively or otherwise"

In that case, Tropes Of Order might be a good alternative title for the index, since the essence of the Knight Templar is a belief in order over virtue, a person who does evil while believing that he's doing good. Anyone who doesn't agree with the Knight Templar's methods is evil, at least in his mind.

It might be a good idea to introduce a soft split in the index, dividing up tropes which demonstrate the positive and negative effects of order.

edited 8th Oct '10 10:31:48 PM by Wyvernil

Even if that isn't the case, we should have an index for order tropes, as well as one for chaos tropes.

I approve of Tropes Of Order.

Tropes Templar? Or Index Of The Knights Templar (pun on "Order of the Knights Templar")?

edited 9th Oct '10 12:49:47 PM by MarqFJA

Index Templar?

I like Tropes Of Order. Suggesting Tropes Of Honor as an alternative.

Concerning Sir Index of Tropes, I count 7 of the 19 tropes listed as potentially relevant to characters who are knights, but are not tropes about knights. Should I add to the description "A trope that refers to Knights in name only does not belong on this index."? (Or something to that effect, if anyone wants to reword that statement.)