During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Equinox is weird Cuz he would likely be a rock solid keep if it weren't for that 3rd / Last appearance, it's said Appearance, wich pushes him to Near-CM with him going full Omnicidal Maniac and his ending.....Its tricky.
The First man
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I actually thought he could have been a CM/MB cross, because he's just so damned charming. Though the CM thread peeps said he was too much of a WIE.
RIP Toriyama
Happy 'Yes' to Goan
It's been a fair bit since I've seen Equinox's episodes even though he was one of my favorite baddies from the show, but I do feel like from memory he can...maybe pass, since the subject of his (very short) Villainous Breakdown is a literal Logic Bomb that tears him apart at the seams. PlanKrab was taken down in a similar way (even if unintentionally), so that in itself as a defeat doesn't put me off too much. I could easily be forgetting something that is insta-disqualifying, but I think he fits here better than he would have on CM anyway, so I'll give a tentative 'Yes' for now.
Edited by Ravok on Jun 5th 2021 at 2:00:02 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Yea, I felt this was a more passable Villainous Breakdown as opposed to the tantrums that Light Yagami throws.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 5th 2021 at 3:50:45 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Equinox (who seems to recover well enough) and Goan
Gotta love Jaws!
Think I'll just say her bastard qualities are enough and Lily.
to Equinox and Goan.
Equinox and Goan.
I just saw that The Backyardigans have entries on their page.
That's like the oddest thing ever.
Edited by TrueChaos on Jun 5th 2021 at 6:03:27 AM
Zeus.
Equinox.
Goan.
Goku Black
to Equinox and Goan
Equinox will hopefully be the first of two for Oded Fehr. I hope to get Zankou from Charmed (1998) whose arguably his most famous villain role up here soon.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lies and Violence!
I remember Equinox! Hell yeah ! And Goan too.
So. I'm bored, and I don't think I know any other work well enough to do an EP there (well, I do, but A Practical Guide to Evil is still ongoing and I'd like to end a writeup for Amadeus with "and so he cemented his rule as Dread Emperor Black" or whatever). So, Skulduggery Pleasant again! Because, as I said, I so am goddamn bored!
If you wanna look over them again for reference, here's Skulduggery and Cadaver Cain's EP's, as well as a CM EP for an alternate version of Lord Vile.
The candidate
He's basically the secondary antagonist of the entire series behind the Faceless Ones, it's normal Lord Vile! Because again, I'm very bored.
For those who didn't bother to remember the backstory (I'm sure very few of you), Skulduggery Pleasant was a sorcerer fighting in the war against Mevolent and his worship of the Eldritch Abomination Faceless Ones - specifically serving as one of the elite soldiers known as the Dead Men.
Eventually, Nefarian Serpine killed Skulduggery Pleasant's family and then the detective himself. His spirit not ready to move on, Pleasant came back to life, his body now a walking skeleton. Consumed with rage, both by the loss of his family and the never-ending war with Mevolent, Skulduggery had his hatred encouraged by his evil lover Abyssinia, to the point where he decided he wanted to kill every single living thing. Skulduggery abandoned his identity, took up the name and armor of Lord Vile, and joined the Necromancer Order. Within a few months he easily established himself as their most powerful member, being hailed as their prophesized Dark Messiah: The Death Bringer.
During his time with the Order, Vile's nearly-indestructible armor allowed him to be used for exploring other dimensions. Here, he came into contact with the Viddu De, death gods who wanted revenge on the Faceless Ones. In exchange for the ability to see all possible futures, Vile agreed to kill everyone in the universe on their behalf, to deny the Faceless Ones their worshippers and to give everyone the peace of death.
Knowing exactly what he had to do to ensure a timeline where he'd be victorious, Vile joined up with Mevolent. Over the course of five years, Vile rose up the ranks until he was one of Mevolent's Co-Dragons; butchered hundreds of soldiers on the battlefield, including the mother of his best friend; backstabbed Abyssinia when she tried to overthrow Mevolent, which would end the war prematurely; makes contact with fellow Necromancer Uriah Serrate, opening his eyes to the Viddu De and setting things up for the rest of his plan; and eventually took off the armor and reverted to his Skulduggery Pleasant, wiping his memory of the Viddu De and their gifted omniscience so that the next few hundred years could play out exactly as he'd foreseen, without his interference.
Of course, since the Viddu De stuff is a blatant retcon (the author's great, he really is, but he really needs to plan things out beforehand), Vile still pops up every once in a while. Due to shenanigans, Skulduggery becomes slightly unhinged, and when he comes into contact with the armor again Vile escapes his subconsciousness and possesses it, heading off to get revenge on the Necromancer Order for replacing him as the Death Bringer with Melancholia St Clair. He does relatively well, but at the end of the day Melancholia is more powerful and he's not the full Vile, so he loses. Until, in order to stop Melancholia from killing everyone on the planet, Skulduggery fully embraces the persona, and Vile is truly reborn.
Within seconds Vile manages to sabotage Melancholia's powers, making her relatively useless and unable to fight back in any meaningful way. Vile chases her and Valkyrie through caves inhabited by magic-eating monsters - because of the local fauna's nature, he can't really use his powers to fight against them. Don't worry! He brute forces his way through them, using pure strength to snap the necks of anything that comes after him. He eventually ends up brawling with Darquesse, Valkyrie's Physical God Superpowered Evil Side, until Skulduggery manages to take control again.
From then on, Vile's mostly used as a cool power-up for Skulduggery to use against world-ending threats, Skulduggery retaking control after the current conflict is over so that Vile doesn't go murdering everything. Or, given the Viddu De retcon, Vile let him take back control so that the timeline plays out how he wants.
Also, Vile... might be dead? He gets into a fight with a Vile from an alternate universe, who intends to kill everyone in the multiverse with a zombie army. L!Vile manages to absorb the shadows from normal Skulduggery before getting killed by a God-Killer. I'm not entirely sure if this means normal Vile is dead too, or just weaker, but whatever the case is he doesn't appear in the next book.
Speaking of the next book! Vile's plan goes off pretty well. Serrate, the Necromancer he previously recruited, assassinates and resurrects Damocles Creed. Valkyrie travels to the future, where Skulduggery's future self Cadaver Cain travels back to the present with her. The two use their influence over Creed to hijack his plan to summon the Faceless Ones, converting it into a death field that will envelop the universe. They come within seconds of victory, only failing due to the interference of two beings whose futures they can't see.
Is he magnificent?
Dear lord, yes! Vile is easily the most badass character in the series, and the biggest case of Evil Is Cool - a common criticism of some of the books after his introduction is "no Lord Vile."
As conflicts escalate Vile is repeatedly shown as becoming ever so low on the totem pole of power. Fortunately, Weak, but Skilled is a thing, as even against much more powerful opponents Vile manages to quickly outsmart them and sniff out their weaknesses.
He also masterminds a plan that comes within seconds of winning, using the incredibly complicated to master ability to see possible futures.
Is he a bastard?
Before the Viddu De retcon, this might have outweighed the magnificence. Vile has always been presented as an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to kill everything. He allied with Mevolent so that he could kill more things, he stopped Abyssinia from overthrowing Mevolent so the killing wouldn't end prematurely, and he wanted to kill the Faceless Ones because fuck it.
In the Leibniz universe where he never went back to being Skulduggery and stayed with Mevolent he got bad enough that I got him up as a CM: he tried to murder the multiverse with a zombie army. And, before the latest book came out, I had every confidence that normal Vile would have tried something similar had he been given the opportunity (quick note, they never offer an explanation for what changed in the Leibniz universe to cause all this stuff to happen. The best guess I've heard so far is that L!Vile never met the Viddu De).
But, with the Viddu De stuff: it was all part of his plan! Every horrible act, brief moments of sadism expressed towards his friends? Setting things up so that the future will occur exactly as he had seen it!
Cadaver also states that his motivation for helping the Viddu De was that "they gave me hope when I was hopeless," and Cadaver certainly believes what he's doing is legitimately good. With Vile I'm... less confident about in that regard; the reason Vile "exists" is because Abyssinia fanned his "murder everyone" flames until it become its own personality. I'm a bit doubtful he legitimately wants to help everyone, but Cadaver says he has access to all of Vile's memories so I guess I'll trust him.
I'm a bit confused, is Vile like a Split Personality? Otherwise I don't have any problems with him keeping.
Lies and Violence!
Pretty much. Like, the author flip-flops a lot, but at the end of the day the general idea is "bad part of Skulduggery he doesn't like."
Ah cool, in that case to Vile
Okay, I might as well do a thorough sweep of Brave and the Bold for candidates. I got another one: Professor Zoom.
Who is Professor Zoom and what has he done?
Eobard Thawne / Professor Zoom (or simply "Zoom" for short), is the Arch-Enemy of Barry Allen / The Flash. This version is voiced by The Flash himself. All in all, one of the least assholish versions of the character to ever show up. He exclusively appears in "Requiem for a Scarlet Speedster!"
Two years prior to the present, Barry Allen was in a heated battle with his nemesis. Barry calls in Jay Garrick and Wally West to assist in chasing Professor Zoom. But upon approaching light speed, all four speedsters run through a dimensional tear. Zoom becomes lost in the void, while Barry sacrifices himself to push the other Flashes back, while he himself is presumed dead. However in the present day, the other Flashes and Batman begin seeing a ghostly vision of Barry Allen.
Deciding to investigate, Batman brings the other Flashes to the Flash Museum. Batman suspects the Cosmic Treadmill has picked up residual signals of Barry and is transmitting them. So once the ghostly Barry appears again, they use the Treadmill to lock onto the signal and follow it to the 25th century. The future is full of statues and billboards dedicated to Eobard Thawne, who has taken over and is now ruling as Evil Overlord!
Turns out, Lord Zoom had deliberately lured Barry into the Light Speed Dimension, which he used to teleport Barry to the 25th century and then trapped him inside a generator to run endlessly and unable to stop, where he then siphoned off Barry's speed to empower both himself and his personal law enforcement officers (appropriately named "The Speed Force"). The Speed Force quickly arrive and apprehend the heroes, despite their attempts to fight them off. They are taken before Lord Zoom, where Jay manages to escape confinement and frees the other heroes. However, Lord Zoom is simply too fast and imprisons both Flashes inside the generator with Barry, while throwing Batman into a jail cell. Now with three speedsters empowering him, Lord Zoom now has the power to move to any time and conquer any era.
Batman being Batman, attempts a breakout. He picks his locks and then knocks out one of the Speed Force guards from within his cell, then steals the speed bracelet he's wearing, granting himself superspeed. Batman then takes out the entirety of the Speed Force guards, taking all of their speed bracelets for himself, and then arrives to challenge Lord Zoom himself. Speedster Batman is no match for Lord Zoom, who snatches the speed bracelets off Batman one by one. However, Batman does manage to provide a diversion for Lord Zoom, as the trapped Flashes take this chance to approach Light Speed and open up another portal, to which they push Barry through and allow him to finally escape. Barry is just in time to save Batman from being killed by Lord Zoom, and the two nemesises continue their climactic battle across the face of the Earth. The battle comes to a conclusion with Barry luring Zoom into a circular trench where he uses his speed-induced-friction to glass the wall, confusing Zoom and allowing Barry to trip him and knock him out.
Magnificent? Charming? Charismatic?
One of the most intelligent and competent villains on the show. He plays Barry like a puppet and actually manages to take over the world in the future. He also had a Near-Villain Victory in capturing all three Flashes and came very close to killing Batman. His final defeat did have Barry pulling a fast one on him, but even then it was pretty dignified with him going down silently.
For an Evil Overlord, he's pretty affable. He does taunt the heroes a bit, but it's never excessively douchey. There's also no signs that he is a Bad Boss towards his Speed Force guards. John Wesley Shipp kills the role and makes him both threatening and fun at the same time.
Too much of a bastard?
Absolutely not. Far and far the least evil Thawne I have come across. He virtually never kills anyone, yet still manages to conquer the future with style. The only one he came close to killing was Batman, though that really pales in comparison to the many mass murderers that have appeared on this show.
Competition?
Batman as per usual, as well as Barry and the Flashes. Lord Zoom manages to outsmart all of them for the majority of the episode. Luring Barry into his trap and imprisoning him in the generator, doing the same for the other Flashes, and overwhelming Speedster Batman with ease.
Final verdict?
I say keep him.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 5th 2021 at 8:49:54 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Equinox, Goan, and Vile.
Leaning yes to Professor Zoom. The reason it's just leaning though is I remember him coming off as more smug then affable. Though I have not scene his episode in years and might be misremembering there.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 5th 2021 at 10:27:19 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
I do remember him saying stuff like how he was the fastest now that he had two/three speedsters powering him, and mocks Batman in thinking he had a chance against him. But Barry banters right back at him with stuff like "I'm the Flash, speed is my game", so I wouldn't pitch him as being overly arrogant or a Smug Snake.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 5th 2021 at 8:39:02 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Okay. Solidifying my yes.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Equinox, Goan, Vile and Professor Zoom.
Professor Gigachad
Surprising Zoom not the villain you would usually expect to qualify as he is usually extremely, extremely petty.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 5th 2021 at 8:53:59 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
First time Thawne has been up on somewhere other than the CM thread, lol. Wonder how Arrowverse Thawne will fare, he seems to flip between CM and MB depending on the season.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Regardless of how it plays out on the CM side, I can't see Arrowverse Thawne counting as this ever.
Edited by Bullman on Jun 5th 2021 at 11:02:03 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Especially Post-crisis where he goes on a murderous rampage. And yah, only maybe Season 1 Thawne could have made the cut.
Edited by Snowy66 on Jun 5th 2021 at 9:05:48 AM
The Moron
Arrowverse Thawne hasn't been in the same universe as this trope ever since he willingly worked with Nazis - but this one seems fine.
Yes to Goan abstain leaning no on Equinox.
If no one has any problems I'd like to reserve the upcoming live actions Resident Evil Netflix series since I already reserved it on CM.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon