Broken Base Cleanup

So under BrokenBase.Sonic The Hedgehog, there's this bullet:

• Fans will also argue constantly over romantic pairings between characters, despite the fact there are no official romantic couples whatsoever in any of the games. The only official pairings of any kind have been from the SatAM/Archie end of things, and they will go so far as to whine about those couples because they don't conform to personal preference. Some fans are known to push their personal beliefs on Sonic fanon as absolute truth, to the point you'd think some of these people were the legal owners of the series. If you want to avoid an argument, then do not, under any circumstances, bring up which Sonic characters should be dating. The worst case scenario is if the pairing(s) involve child characters such as Cream, for example. This also applies to crossover pairings as well, which caused many fights and arguments between the fans and haters. No doubt a major reason Sega avoids any official couples is because they fear Fan Dumb backlash, given what they already have to put up with.

Is "shipping wars exist" enough for Broken Base? This pretty much happens in any large fandom, and we already have Die for Our Ship.

Yeah, I think that's better suited for Ship-to-Ship Combat.

Reposting from the previous page, so it doesn't get lost:

Bringing up the following example from the film section of Catwoman:

• Broken Base: The film's Signature Scene in the basketball game tends to evoke different reactions. Due to how hilariously unappropriate and unapologetic it is, viewers consider it to be either the symbol of all what is wrong with this film or a scene that Crosses the Line Twice and makes a point about how can this film be possibly enjoyed (see Narm Charm below).

Doesn't have enough context.

Does the Catwoman film have a fanbase?

Bringing up the following examples from Blade Runner 2049:

• Broken Base:
  • While the film's visuals, soundtrack and performances were unanimously praised, the main storyline and how it develops were more divisive. Some think Blade Runner 2049 chose a genuinely interesting premise and ran with it impeccably, while others think it is a poorly explained mess that also suffers from an agonizing pacing, and a middle ground between both believes it was a good attempt that simply ended up dragging along too much and not being clear enough.
  • The film's portrayal of women is also a source of division. The film is at times extremely Male Gaze-y and its setting is unambiguously misogynistic (as was that of the original, but 2049 arguably takes this further), with women mostly being relegated to roles of sex workers, victims, or "holographic housewives", but there's disagreement over whether the film steps over into endorsing the misogyny of its setting. For his part, director Denis Villeneuve says that it is not intended to do so: "Blade Runner is not about tomorrow; it's about today. And I'm sorry, but the world is not kind on women." Some of the film's defenders have argued that the film can be read as a parable about fertility, perhaps comparable in some ways to The Handmaid's Tale or Children of Men — its villain, Niander Wallace, is obsessed with fertility, essentially "consumed by rage that women can do something he cannot", as Helen Lewis argued in the New Statesman:
    "Fertility is the perfect theme for the dystopia of Blade Runner 2049, because of the western elite anxiety that over-educated, over-liberated women are having fewer children, or choosing to opt out of childbearing altogether ... Feminism is one potential solution to this problem: removing the barriers which make women feel that motherhood is a closing of doors. Another is to take flight, and find another exploitable class to replace human females ... Maybe androids don't dream of electric sheep, but some human men certainly dream of electric wombs."

Writing in Moviepilot, meanwhile, Rachael Kaines argues that the theme of the entire setting is that of "second-class citizens. Replicants. Orphans. Women. Slaves. Just by depicting these secondary citizens in subjugation doesn't mean that it is supportive of these depictions - they are a condemnation." (Kaines' interpretation is arguably in keeping with Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? as well, as Dick intended society's dehumanisation of androids to have applicability to all forms of societal oppression; the novel was explicitly constructed as a deconstruction of the mindset that produced the Holocaust, but due to Dick's subtlety, many readers missed his intended meaning.) Despite these defences, the film's portrayal of its female characters and some of its plot elements (particularly the violence against women) remains a point of contention, and women overall seem to have responded less readily to the film, which may have been a factor in its relatively middling box office performance.

The first one seems like a mild dispute, a case of "some like this others don't". The latter one might be legit, but violates Clear, Concise, Witty by several margins and needs severe trimming.

Bringing up the following examples from Catwoman:

• Broken Base:
  • Probably the biggest split in her fandom is between fans of her 90's ongoing and fans of the one from 2000's. There are of course fans of both, but you'll rarely hear from them.
  • Frank Miller's Batman: Year One Catwoman origin subplot that gives her a past as a professional Dominatrix. Quite a lot of people consider it sexist and blatant Author Appeal that is best ignored, but some argue it is a good addition to her history (if more for what later writers did with it than the original story), that makes her a rare example of a positive, non-stereotypical portrayal of sex workers in fiction.
  • Catwoman being bisexual in the New 52. Some people believe it was handled well and enjoy Selina's relationship with Eiko, others feel DC should have done this with other characters, with larger Homoerotic Subtext and LGBT Fanbase, or not have done it with a character with a previous history of frequent Girl on Girl Is Hot innuendo used solely for male-audience fanservice.

The first doesn't have that many info on how its a BB. The second could be an example but i dont know how BB it is. Though, Miller does get criticized in using sex workers in story. The third i have no idea.

Here's a new rule of thumb: if you can add the sentence "And both sides get along just fine" to the end of an entry and it still makes perfect sense and doesn't contradict what came before, then the entry hasn't established an especially vicious conflict and is therefore a ZCE at best and shoehorning at worst.

I'm not a big amiibo fan, but BrokenBase.amiibo looks like it has a lot of minor disagreements. Is anything on there actually an intense, long-lasting debate among collectors?

Chainsaw that nonsense.

I probably will cutlist the thing if no one objects.

Works for me.

Bringing up the following examples from BrokenBase.Live Action TV:

• Doctor Who:
  • Every era of the show receives a degree of this with some fans who love it while others hate it. Arguments rage over whether the Classic series or the Modern revival is better. Fans of the Classic series prefer the lack of melodrama and more traditional sci-fi feel while fans of the Modern series prefer the greater emphasis on character development and long term arcs. And then there's the debates over which incarnation of the Doctor is the best.
  • The decision to Gender Swap the character in 2017 led to the most extreme broken base scenario in the franchise's history, with fandom pretty much evenly split between those applauding the idea and those who announced they were divorcing themselves from the franchise.

The first one strikes me as closer to Contested Sequel than this trope, as the number of sides involved is 2n where n is the number of Doctors present.

The second one sounds like it would be valid if they bothered to elaborate what exactly the stances even are.

Any objections to cutlisting BrokenBase.amiibo? I'll probably do that later tonight if no one speaks up.

Some things in this example from Disney Princess feel a bit weird.

• Broken Base:
  • Over the inclusion of characters who do not seem to fit with the line as easily as characters like Aurora or Rapunzel; that is, Pocahontas, Mulan, and Merida for being too athletic, not girly enough, and/or not a princess. Similarly, if Elsa joins the line-up, a lot of people feel that it is insulting somehow to being her queenship. Moana fans have been somewhat divided over the prospect she could join, though most seem to support it. The main debate is if she's technically a princess or not. She's a chief's daughter, and her culture lacks the connotation of princess. On the other, even Maui points out that she fulfills the qualifications, brave, strong, sings, has an animal sidekick, and her title is the closest to a princess anyway. A concern for fans is her body type, which was made to go against the mold as she has a lot of muscle and built to look like it.

I have definitely seen people argue that Merida shouldn't be included, because she is from Pixar and that Pocahontas, Mulan and Moana shouldn't be included, because they are not princesses, but I have never seen anybody argue that they can't be included, because they are too athletic/not girly enough/too muscled. Can I cut these parts out of the example?

Go for it.

While editing, the post could be updated, since "if Elsa joins the lineup" and "the prospect [Moana] can join" sound like they were written before confirmation of either of them joining. (According to the other wiki: Elsa isn't included, but Moana is.)

From YMMV.The Umbrella Academy 2019, is this a valid example? (The one I bolded, I just included the other one so it doesn't come off as an incorrect example indentation.

No. See x example isn't allowed. We're not supposed to direct people to other parts of the page.

Base-Breaking Character and Broken Base are similar but non-equivalent.

Bringing up the following examples from Legion Of Superheroes 2020:

• Broken Base:
  • Fan reception to Bendis' take on the Legion has been divided since the moment it was first announced. Some Legion fans are happy with a new continuity and a fresh start alongside Ryan Sook's gorgeous designs. Others argue the book is an incoherent, poorly edited mess where most of the Legionnaires simply stand around in the background or ramble on about nothing, and another continuity reboot is only going to make the Legion more inaccessible for new readers.
  • Gold Lantern's character has been hyped up in-universe by other Legionnaires announcing he has an amazing backstory and even President Brande seems to think highly of him. The thing is the character hasn't really done anything to warrant such hype nor has anything been revealed of his backstory. What doesn't help matters is that for some reason, the sixth issue sold out because online markets treated it like the character's first appearance, when Gold Lantern made their first actual appearance in Superman #14.

From Shin Megami Tensei IV: Apocalypse:

• The Bonds Route. Depending on who you ask, it's either an exceptionally satisfying Earn Your Happy Ending or an exceptionally awkward tonal shift.
• The Massacre Route. Has multiple divisions. On the one hand, some fans consider it a route that comes as out of place from the rest of the narrative and tries too hard to be dark and edgy, since here you fight not just some of the other sides, but all of them. On the flip side, even when interpreting it as a good ending, fans disagree on just what exactly it is about. One particularly common debate is whether it's a rational ending at all, or just a glorified "villain path."
• For that matter, the redone alignment system itself. Detractors feel it removes the series' trademark moral ambiguity by having Law and Chaos be early bad endings clearly framed as completely in the wrong and one of the two rather offbeat Neutral endings being favored over the other. Supporters fire back that the difference for once is refreshing and that the characters offering said Neutral endings make some very good points about the sheer futility of the traditional Megaten narrative.
• The nature and quality of the story is a major hot topic among the fans. Proponents love it for its greater depth and characters, presenting a story with a setting and characters that are refreshingly different for a Megaten game, fixing recurrent problems other games in the series have such as Flat Characters and Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Meanwhile detractors hate it, finding it a mess of cliches, stock characters, Mood Whiplash, lack of subtlety and feels like the story relies on contrivances to move forward. And while those elements may be refreshingly different to the series, and some detractors may even like the story in general, they nevertheless dislike that they skirt dangerously close to generic-RPG-ville and thus don't work as an SMT story in particular. And the fact that the Bonds route relies so heavily and blatantly on The Power of Friendship feels out of place in what is otherwise a more cynical series.
• A small break emerged when some of the unused designs for the demons and characters where revealed in the art-book. Namely that many of the rejected designs where met with wide praise and raised questions as to why they where rejected in the first place. Some claim it is just how things turned out while other think that the developers tried to go for more Persona-like designs instead of following the mythology like the rejected designs did. Others like the designs that did get used in game and enjoy them, but also tend to like the concept ones and see them as working better for future games.
• It's less breaking than the demons, but an earlier concept of the protagonist is a man in his twenties (with a transformed arm that seems to outright replicate Dagda's in place of a Power Tattoo) instead of a fifteen-year old boy. Naturally, those in charge of the game asserted that a more "open-minded" teenaged protagonist would be a better fit for a Japanese audience. While the initial design was repurposed into Asahi's dad, some Western fans found the notion of an older protagonist to not be a good fit as a Player Character to be somewhat absurd, although this issue is endemic to many JRPGs, not just MegaTen. Others prefer the original concept simply because they don't like the half-shaven head look.
• While Doi's demon designs has been all around well received, the design of YHVH's second form is quite a source of contention. Some like it with how it incorporates numerous biblical themes (most notably the ten plagues) while others loathe it, thinking it looks plain and generic, and yet others love it because it is so generic, like any other demon.
• A number of translation errors were found in the English version, including, infamously, an important late-game dialogue prompt that was left completely untranslated. ^note It should be said that the particular untranslated lines in question only appear under a specific circumstance that can be avoided. Many people are defending it, saying that it's not a big deal and can just be patched later, or that things like that slip through, whereas others argue that XSEED Games has a smaller staff than Atlus, translates games with much more text on a regular basis (such as The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky or Trails Of Cold Steel, though these games aren't completely free of them either) with less staff, all without charging the extra $10 Atlus does for their games. Atlus PR's joking response (which some found funny and others condescending) or that they have been doing this for◊ a◊ while◊ hasn't helped.
• There are some discussions over who should have been the Final Boss of the game, with some saying that YHVH is perfect for it while others hold that Vishnu-Flynn should have been citing that the game is pretty much concluded at that point. There is also a third camp that think that Vishnu-Flynn should have been exclusive to the Bonds route while YHVH would be for the Massacre route.