All-Purpose Policy and Meta discussion: Administrivia.Trope Repair Shop

Moved to the Wick Check Project thread, which I've come to believe is a more appropriate place for it.

Edited by JHD0919 on Sep 13th 2023 at 5:45:34 AM

This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)

Iconic Sequel Character feels like a misnomer, because the term "sequel" really only applies to movies. For comic books, it's "later installments". For TV Series, its "later seasons". For works such as web-series and comic books, its "[X] years into [Works] run"

I feel that "Iconic Late Arrival Character" would be a better trope name as it is more encompassing

Image Pickin' Backlog

We only change trope names if they're actively causing problems. You'd need to follow How to Do a Wick Check and determine whether it's being underused for serial works.

Yeah, I finished my Wick Check for Fighter, Mage, Thief a while ago. (click here) Was going to see how people feel about it on the Wick Check thread but got no response so I felt its okay to post here. Anyways, here are a laconic version of the results.

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• Number of examples that fit the description: 2/50 (4%)
• Number of examples that don't fit the description but fit the vibe: 9/50 (18%)
• Number of problematic examples: 39/50 (78%)

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Yeah, this trope definitely needs to get sent to the TRS, the general problems I felt come up with it were...

• Description clashing with non-game examples: The description is clearly designed for gameplay in mind but looking at the page alone shows there are numerous non-gameplay examples.
• Leaning more into the Power Trio than Three Approach System: This trope was written in mind of the Three Approach System (despite being made before the Three Approach System funny enough) but even in games people fit examples of a Power Trio that fit the three archetypes even if the gameplay system is not a Three Approach System. The fact this is listed in the Power Trio index does not help.
• Common Character Classes, Three Approach System and some of TAS's subtropes are underexposed: The number of wicks for Common Character Classes and Three Approach System are in the 30s, meanwhile Fighter, Mage, Thief is a kilowicked at over 1200. FMT visibility will make less aware tropers gravitate towards this for class systems or gameplay roles due to lack of awareness of more appropriate tropes.
• Misunderstanding what the "Thief" in Fighter, Mage, Thief means: Usually when a trio doesn't fit, this is because the attempt at a "Thief" does not fit, due thinking that the Thief is basically just the "third class" to Fighter and Mage rather than tied to a "finesse" role. I honestly blame the trope's unclear name for this as it is clear that Fighter equates "strength" and Mage equates "sorcery", what Thief means isn't going to be clear to those unfamiliar with older RPGs (it's more common to see "Rogues" rather than "Thieves" in modern RPGs).
• Being an old trope means Zero Context Examples are inevitable: It's an old trope, ZCEs are going to inevitably show up simply due to how long its been around.

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Honestly, I feel this trope needs to be renamed to reduce misunderstandings, examples better fitting Common Character Classes, Three Approach System and its subtropes being moved to the proper trope while also helping their visibility and either a new trope is made for Power Trio examples so the old trope can stick to being a subtrope of Three Approach System or the trope is expanded to allow for Power Trio examples rather than just gameplay ones.

Edited by JustaUsername on Sep 16th 2023 at 11:38:41 PM

Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.

@8352: Huh, we've had a similar discussion when I adopted the draft for Named in the Sequel. The draft used to be called Named In A Later Installment because it is not limited to sequels, as you said, but some people said that "later installments" would be covered by Tropes Are Flexible, and Sequel is more concise than Later Installment.

Edited by Adept on Sep 16th 2023 at 8:52:09 PM

amathieu13 is next with the conjoined Black Magician Girl and White Magician Girl.

They said we can launch without it.

I wanna ask, can a non-mod Troper start another troper's thread? Or can only a mod do that?

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

~Ma Lady Your Magic Enhancement thread seems like it should be a Trope Talk thread first (if not Trope Finder). In TRS a question like that would require a usage check to see if it's getting substantial usage for the broader definition beyond your own examples.

Thanks! Gonna replace my slot with something else!

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

I'm sure that it might be fine, but a moderator still needs to open it. Usually when a TRS-frequenting mod closes a thread, they would start another up, hence why it's usually the moderator that starts threads that are given consent.

I already got the thread started.

Edited by Berrenta on Sep 18th 2023 at 7:58:07 AM

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Alright then

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

Once a TRS thread is made, when is the time to move the wick check to the OP?

Is it when:

• Several days have passed since thread creation?

Or is it when:

• A decision has been made whether via post votes or crowner is called.

Also does a mod move it automatically or does the OP poster do it?

Is it required or just optional?

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

The latter. The point is when wicks are to be removed, to copy the reasoning "just in case".

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Would changing the name of a Useful Notes page require a TRS thread?

I'm just looking at the Prussian Kings page and I feel like the page could use a different title to acknowledge the fact that it also includes German Kaisers (e.g. "Prussian Kings and German Kaisers," or "The House of Hohenzollern").

Does anyone else here actually know Fighbird beyond the "Is this a pigeon?" meme?

This ATT said changing to/from YMMV or Trivia requires TRS. I assume the same applies for Useful Notes or other namespaces.

Also, said ATT told me to ask about these proposed moves here.

• Grandfather Clause: Make YMMV as it is about the audiences willingness to accept outdated/discredited stuff, The Artifact being the objective trope of a work retaining dated stuff. (Man of Steel showed nothing’s objectively stopping works from changing Grandfather Clause aspects save fan backlash.)
• Dead Fic and Orphaned Series: Make Trivia as they are about the production of the work as opposed to in-work tropes.

Thoughts? Any reasons to keep them as is?

I wonder if Don't Make Me Destroy You should be brought to TRS. I haven't done a wick check yet, but looking at on-page examples I see ZCEs mostly of the "Quote the trope" variety. Other examples don't make it clear that the character not wanting to fight is more powerful than the aggressor, some cases appear (IMO) to be between evenly matched opponents, which goes against the "clearly more powerful" aspect in the description. I wonder if dropping this condition could be a potential solution, or if that would make the trope meaningless?

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors

Drag Queen reads a lot more like Useful Notes page than an actual Trope. It's sort of like Main.Transgender or Main.Asexual. And most of the entries just seem to be "character is a drag queen".

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

Yeah, I think Drag is sufficiently mainstream and culturally visible now (not entirely due to Ru Paul) that it's no longer a useful trope in its own right.

I'm not sure if I need a wick check for this one but

My TRS category for Drag Queen is "Really A Useful Note"

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Sep 23rd 2023 at 9:07:26 AM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

You should do one. It'll serve as a use check to help determine whether examples describe nothing more than Character Is Drag Queen, whether any other tropes can be identified, etc.

Alright

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

On the other hand, we could probably make a genre page for drag now that it's more visible in the mainstream.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Now that we've merged Three Amigos to Power Trio, does anyone think Two Guys and a Girl need to be looked into as well? The description of the dynamics seems a lot more specific than how it is likely used (i.e. an inevitable rivalry/clash between the two guys, and the girl being a mediator between the two). It definitely seems more restrictive than the Distaff Counterpart, Two Girls and a Guy (where the two girls are Foils, and the guy may or may not be a love interest).

So I'm taking a break from the forums for personal reasons, but since nobody has pointed this out yet I have to make an exception and point out something that's too important for me not to point out.

MaLady's OPs on the TRS Queue continue to be bare-bones, with Ghostwriter not even having one. I originally wasn't gonna point this out since other people's OPs are usually not my business, but the straw that broke the camel's back for me was StellarName's OP, which contains an incomplete quote and no wick check wick to speak of. (To say nothing of CavalryOfTheDead's OP, whose wick check wick is a redlink.) Needless to say, I believe this has gone on long enough. Something must be done, otherwise this pattern will continue.

I originally made an ATT thread about this issue. In that thread I gave ~War Jay 77 and anyone else permission to take that issue here, but nobody ever did so, so I have to do it myself.

Edited by JHD0919 on Sep 25th 2023 at 10:04:47 AM

This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)

Fair? Except for how I'm at 52nd place and unless I'm judging the speed of the queue wrong, I have like a month before I have to change focus from TLP fun and move to TRS?

And I've done wick checks of 50 or more in like, a few hours, it's just tedious, so, I delay it?

We know Ghostwriter has problems, as the ATT says.

Martial Arts Headband is too similar to Martial Arts Uniform to not have problems. If someone restores Sandbox.Martial Arts Uniform Wick Check, then looking at the overlapping pages will show that.

If you successfully argue that Cavalry of the Dead somehow doesn't have problems, I'll remove it. Especially since it's only on the queue because someone else raised the issue.

If you can suggest a way that Stellar Name is not Chairs, then ditto.

Edited by Malady on Sep 25th 2023 at 8:03:51 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

I'm paying compliments but the anti-Jewish slur "shyster" is on this page - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DeconstructiveParody/RobotChicken