Ambiguous Name: Lets You And Him Fight

I'd say the name is still ambiguous even if the definition issue was resolved.

If this trope is going to be solely for 'third party manipulates two separate opponents into fighting each other instead' then we need to make a 'in a cross over, heroes will fight for some reason' YKTTW to help the clean up.

Taking that one to the shop if there are no objections.

I'd also suggest tweaking the trope definition such that it doesnt use an Example As Thesis. The two people investigating the same case thing is an example of what the trope can be, but not a good definition per se. The iamge and stuff also implies the crossover dynamic, which is not required.

edited 25th Aug '15 1:45:22 PM by acrobox

Sandbox

See Sandbox above for redefined Lets You and Him Fight that moves it away from the superhero crossover.

Ay other suggestions. 'm going to do a writer up for the Marvel Misunderstanding / Cross Over Throw Down or whatever we want to call the obligatory crossover battle.

edited 30th Aug '15 4:23:16 PM by acrobox

Should I go ahead so we can close this one?

The current article is more entertaining. No fix required, I'd say.

The current article isn't going away wholesale. I'm probably going to cut and paste most of it into the Cross Over Throw Down trope.

I never saw a problem with it, but I suppose I see the points being made.

The other option i guess is to take Lets You and Him fight, the new version to the YKTTW and reword the current version into Cross Over Throw Down.

I updated the Sandbox, to account for btoh tropes.

which one goes to YKTTW and which one becomes the new definition/name?

Should we do a wick check to see what Let's You and Him Fight is more commonly used for?

edited 6th Sep '15 9:52:01 AM by acrobox

bump

I personally think that you got it right in the Sandbox. But I guess a wick check wouldn't hurt.

Agreed, though it'll pose as quite the task. Just checked the wick count and it's at 1053.

Something like "Amused antagonist, dueling deuteragonists?" Or "Mal's wrench," for the time it was used in Serenity?

edited 1st Oct '15 9:07:13 PM by Artificius

@61: Well, I think the usual rule is that if there are too many wicks, you can do a random selection (~10% or so).

That sounds a lot feasible!

Unfortunately, I am in no position to check wicks, as I'm on a mobile at the moment, and I'm busy with other wick-related stuff for other pages. If anyone wants to volunteer, that would be awesome.

I already did a wick check earlier in the thread but I suppose making another a year later wouldn't hurt.....

Actually hey, does the wick check actually matter at this point.

If we're already agreed to split off the tropes, shouldn't we just move examples that are one or the other into the new tropes?

What difference would finding the wicks make to the clean up effort?

edited 5th Oct '15 8:51:49 PM by acrobox

Wick Check

Looking for versions that use one guy manipulating two others to fight so he doesnt have to (Type 1) vs. obligatory fight between heroes in a cross over (Type 2)

• 1. Agarest Senki: He makes both Lenion and Chaos to fight it out so he can kick them out of their places and become the god of Agarest. - Type 1
• 2. Aladdin: The Series: During a crossover with Hercules, Aladdin and Herc got into this position after Hades and Jafar kidnapped their friends and fooled them into believing the other had done it. - both but seems to be primarily concerned about Type 1
• 3. Alpha Protocol: In the ending, it's possible for Mike to set this up between Marburg and Parker in two ways: By completing Marburg's dossier and telling him that Parker was the handler responsible for making him go rogue or telling Parker that Marburg killed Madison, his daughter. Either way it ends with Parker dead while Mike gets to fight Marburg. Type 1
• 4. Anime & Manga: By the last few episodes, Ishigami the art teacher has Yukariko's mind firmly in the palm of his hands, and uses her against the other HiME for his own ambitions (namely, getting her to fake an injury to provoke Natsuki into attacking Nao, and using her CHILD to trap Mai in a Lotus-Eater Machine to further break her spirit). - Type 1
• 5. Aquarion Evol: The OVA's promotional video features Aquarion Evol and Solar Aquarion duking it. Turns out to be little more than Kagura and Apollo doing their thing. - just heroes fighting no crossover.
• 6. Avengers: Age of Ultron: When Vision awakens, he briefly tries to tackle Thor and gets thrown at a window for his troubles, but settles down soon enough. - Type 2
• 7. Batman vs. Robin Let's You and Him Fight: It's in the title! Despite this, Batman and Robin fight only at the midway point of the movie. The real crux of the film is shaky relationship between Bruce and Damian. - Type 2 for a Bat Family Crossover, but may also be Fighting the Lancer
• 8. Western Animation/Bravestarr:How BraveStarr and Thirty-Thirty met, as depicted in The Movie. Zero Context Example, not sure if the point is good guys fighting, in which case more like Defeat Means Friendship, or if the point is manipulation, but no third party is mentioned.
• 9. Cave Story: Attacks the player character almost immediately after he meets her. Intended to be Type 2, but is actually Defeat Means Friendship (no crossover or manipulation involved misuse)
• 10. Combattler V: One of the latter issues in the series even featured the standard "Heroic misunderstanding" with the Fantastic Four. - Type 2
• 11. Conflict Ball: The Civil War in Marvel Comics. Many characters are fighting over the issue of a Super Registration Act, but insist on Let's You and Him Fight with some of their fastest friends rather than getting their act together to prove their case (pro or anti) and finding a solution that doesn't result in very necessary heroes being hunted down like dogs, or more battles as the pro and anti sides fight and invariably give villains free rein in the chaos. In the end, the Pro side got Designated Villains to simplify the debate. - Type 2
• 12. Comicbook/Daredevil: He's had to adjust to being blinded and having his senses dramatically enhanced, having his secret identity exposed and his girlfriends murdered, losing his law license and practice, being possessed by demons, and fighting villains and heroes who by all rights should be completely out of his league. But no matter what, Matt Murdock just Keeps. On. Going. - Type 2
• 13. Deadliest Warrior: A few dramatizations would try and give some justification as to why the two sides are fighting, but many don't bother. - Type 2
• 14. Digimon Savers: Keenan vs. other humans, until... - Intended to be Type 2 but may be more of a Defeat Means Friendship or Heel Realization. (No crossover involved)
• 15. Fire Emblem Elibe Blazing Sword: The Lords: When you can stare down a ruthless mass murderer, one who has no empathy for others, who has mocked you for accidentally killing a young girl you grew close to/fell in love with, and who tears down his former best friend while scoffing at the value of friendship, and still declare that you do not hate him for what he's done, but pity him instead, then you know you're at least on the way towards this trope. - Intended to be Type 2 (heroes fighting) but no crossover or manipulation involved. Misuse.
• 16. Web Animation/Haloid - ZCE but the premise of the short is Samus vs Master Chief with no manipulation Type 2
• 17. Humans Are Psychic in the Future: It can get to the point that you can outright obliterate a UFO full of aliens with just one man sitting in the cargo hold of your transport, simply by psionically taking over enemy aliens, and having them kill each other off, all while you remain unharmed. - Type 1
• 18. Hyrule Warriors: Midna's entrance starts with her already at war with Cia, but due to a misunderstanding on the battlefield, she assumes Lana and Agitha are part of Cia's forces and attacks. When Cia retreats, it leaves Lana to defeat Midna and sort out who's on whose side. - Type 2
• 19. Impossibly Mundane Explanation: At the climax of Cold Days, Harry Dresden faces off against another hero, set on him by one of The Fair Folk, who told Fix that Harry is the villain. After getting his butt thoroughly kicked, Harry sums up the situation thusly: Either a being who Cannot Tell a Lie has, or Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden is an evil mastermind. Faced with the evidence, Fix realizes he's been used. - Type 1
• 20. Iron Man & Captain America: Heroes United: Very early on, we get this when Cap and Iron Man are sparring. We also get this when when Cap has been brainwashed by the Red Skull. - Type 2
• 21. Joe Ledger: Hugo Vox in Assassins's Code, who delights in manipulating all the players into a Let's You and Him Fight situation. However, he does not live to enjoy the fruits of his labors, since Mr. Church tracks him down and kills him. - Type 1
• 22. Mêlée à Trois: As another alternative, a particularly devious side may manipulate the others into Let's You and Him Fight, then go after whomever is left. - Type 1
• 23. Mobile Suit Gundam Wing: Infighting among the Gundam pilots is frequent. - Intended to be Type 2 (heroes fighting) but no crossover involved (misuse)
• 24. Awesome/Nintendo: E3 2014. How do you start off the event? By making Iwata and Reggie fight each other to the death! - Type 2 maybe? if you count NOJ vs. NOA as at least a Bat Family Crossover. But it is a fight between heroes who shouldn't fight for hype purposes.
• 25. Pokémon: Generation VI Families: It's implied that Hoopa is the reason you encounter the Legendaries at Mirage Spots in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, as the portals they come out of look like Hoopa's rings. - Intended as Type 1, causes fights that wouldn't normally happen.
• 26. Power Rangers: Dino Thunder: With the Ninja Storm Rangers. For years this was the series's only teamup episode to do this, until the Red RPM and Samurai Rangers had a brawl. - Type 2
• 27. Revenge of the Sith: And more subtly to Grievous, in a way that would have been win-win regardless of who survived the duel with Obi-Wan. The Chessmaster, indeed. - Type 1
• 28. Satchel Switcheroo: In one amusing episode, they switch out the other party's case only to realize that the other party had done the exact same thing to them as the two sets of grifters had been set up to go against each other. - Type 1
• 29. Smallville: How the first meeting between Clark and another superhero usually goes. - Type 2
• 30. Sonic the Hedgehog: First came Sonic vs. Knuckles, then came Sonic vs. Shadow, then came Sonic vs. whoever Sega decided to pit him against, that game. Spilled over into the comics, as well, with some very painful results. - Knowing the series, Some are Type 1 or just general Defeat Means Friendship.
• 31. Superman and the ThunderCats: As usual in these types of crossovers, Superman ends up mistaking the ThunderCats for bad guys and fighting them until the misunderstanding is cleared up. - Type 2
• 32. Super Smash Bros. 64: He and Link fight against Mario and Pit in the Subspace Emissary mode, but they later join forces. - Type 2
• 33. The Darkness: After a bout of fighting and a team-up with the second Magdalena, Jackie sends the Darklings to his apartment to pick him up a tuxedo to impress her. No crossover but fight but then team up points to Type 2.

RESULT

• 12 cases of Type 1 - people fighting because they've been manipulated by a third party,
• 10 cases of clear type 2 - heroes fighting heroes in a crossover, with a few borderline cases (does the Bat Family Crossover count?)
• 9 misuse cases of type 2, heroes fighting heroes, but no crossover or manipulation or just a ZCE
• 2 cases of overall misuse

So its about even. Predictably on super hero works pages or crossover pages its used for obligatory hype crossover battle. On other pages its usually used for manipulating two factions into fighting each other. But there are also broader misuse cases that are hype battle between heroes with no crossover involved, but don't have enough plot context to know if its Headbutting Heroes, Defeat Means Friendship, Fighting Your Friend, Fighting the Lancer etc. But as maybe meant to be supertrope to all of those.

Thoughts?

Should we just migrate crossover examples to Cross Over Throw Down and throw out the ZCE or heroes fighting, but no crossover examples.

edited 18th Oct '15 11:52:34 PM by acrobox

Looking at that sample, we could migrate the crossover examples to their own trope. Shouldn't hurt. As for the misuses, I think we could get rid of those.

Also, for the Smash Bros example, it's Brawl, not 64, as Pit wasn't in 64, but I digress.

Edit: Sounds like a plan!

edited 20th Oct '15 7:42:02 AM by Berrenta

You've done great work on that wick check! Yes, it clearly shows that those 2 meanings are the prevalent here. Type 2 deserves to be split as its own trope (Crossover Throw Down).

As for the non-crossover misuse, I'd support the idea of YKTTW'ing it, as a possible general supertrope to Crossover Throw Down and others.

Maybe we should have Crossover Throw Down go through YKTTW as well, just to polish it out.

Well I sent it there, but I feel like its going to get bogged down in another level of committee.

Where's the link?

Found it.

Locking as part of New Years Purge