Boreale, in fact, could be corrupted by Chaos himself, and he might actually be alive, perhaps returning in Dawn of War III.
- Or they simply don't know the truth about their origins. The Other Wiki says that the chapter was devastated in a campaign against Chaos where both the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity were killed in a trap, so it's possible that the truth died with them.
- Why was the truth reserved to them? Does any other chapter keep its primarch secret from its own brothers?
- Well, the Dark Angels keep a lot of things secret about a lot of things - only the Grand Master and whoever he's grooming as his successor know the whole story of the post-Heresy rebellion. Another possibility is that, like the Soul Drinkers, they were excommunicated at one point after making a mistake, but unlike the Drinkers they ambushed the real Blood Ravens, wiped them out, stole their armour and gene-seed, and tried to submerge themselves into deep cover under their new name. It makes sense that they'd want to keep this information from getting out, so they willingly wiped their data...2000 years ago, and only a few hints remain in the traditions (with a bit more being made explicit to higher ranks, like the Dark Angels).
- A lot of Black Library material pretty heavily hints that the Ravens are loyalist Thousand Sons.
- Why was the truth reserved to them? Does any other chapter keep its primarch secret from its own brothers?
- In Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, when the Space Marines assault the Chaos Stronghold, Eliphas (the Chaos commander) suggest that the Blood Ravens are a loyalist faction of the Word Bearers.
- He suggests the same when he attacks their stronghold.
- These two theories aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Another possibility is that the Ravens started out as the loyalists from all the chapters that defected during the Horus Heresy being consolidated into a single one.
- There is one founding of Space Marine chapters where geneseed from traitor primarchs were used. It didn't work well, and the founding was struck from records. However, it's possible the Blood Ravens are a result of that founding.
- Go and have a look at Index Astartes: Thousand Sons. Specifically, the pre-heresy TS colour scheme. It's red.
- Specifically, after Eliphas beats the Ravens, it says that he garnered Abbadon's respect. Why would Abbadon respect him, if not for defeating a first founding legion?
- Or maybe loyalist Black Legion/Sons Of Horus/Luna Wolves? The existence of such would piss Abbadon off.
- The Blood Ravens are Fallen Angels!
- Nah, loyalist Thousand Sons, except that, at the time of Horus Heresy, they were told they could continue if 1) they kept their origin secret and 2) they let their geneseed be modified somewhat by the introduction of some elements from another Legion's geneseed. They therefore kept it secret even from most brothers (so it would never slip out) and chose the Raven Guard as the most compatible, thus explaining why they are not obviously Thousand Sons.
- A tidbit: The Thousand Sons had, and have, many powerful Psykers/Sorcerers. In some sources, (such as the Lexicanum) the Blood Ravens are explicitly said to have more powerful and more Librarians than most other chapters.
- The Lexicamum also says they have no record from before M37. Most likely they were made using Geneseeds from the Thousand Sons that were discovered some time after the Heresy.
- Latest news fresh from the press; the Horus Heresy Novel A Thousand Sons has a scene where a women psyker forsees the Thousand Son's future and explicitly sees a Raven of Blood. Not quite confirmation but a step closer...
- Just as planned.
- Add to this the fact that the pre-Heresy Thousand Sons wore red armour... That'd work with the "Still-loyal even though the rest of the Legion turned" theory, but a bit harder toe scape, and goes right with the psychic powers and secretive nature.
- They went back to red armour, just as the betrayed Sons of Horus went back to the name "Luna Wolves." A symbolic recanting. (Which does not settle the question of whether they could escape afterward.)
- Kinda' nitpicky, but fairly provable. The Tyranids shown throughout the installments (barring those on the Judgment of Carrion, which to be fair should be populated by nothing but Genestealers) have the color scheme of Hive Fleet Leviathan. These guys show up in the galaxy at around 997.M41 (40,997 AD in our notation). Giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, let's say the Tyranid attack on Subsector Aurelia happened in 997.M41. Chaos Rising is one year later, putting it at 998.M41. And Retribution is a full decade after this, so at the most conservative estimates, the year is now 008.M42 (or 41,008 AD), i.e. the 42nd millennium.
- That works for me. What with Games Workshop's refusal to move the story forward, it is nice to see that someone actually is pushing things along. Also, the first game most likely does take place in 997.M41, since the Tyranids are still somewhat unknown to the Imperium apart from Cyrus and the Death Watch. But how do you explain the Hive Fleet Behemoth Nids that show up in Retribution?
- Maybe they popped up on the Judgement of Carrion in the intervening years, or another splinter hive fleet attacked the subsector?
- Not the first time its happened, Ciaphas Cain is written and edited during the 42nd millennium not only that but the sixth book is entirely from the perspective of the 42nd century versions of the characters. Not much has changed though.
- That works for me. What with Games Workshop's refusal to move the story forward, it is nice to see that someone actually is pushing things along. Also, the first game most likely does take place in 997.M41, since the Tyranids are still somewhat unknown to the Imperium apart from Cyrus and the Death Watch. But how do you explain the Hive Fleet Behemoth Nids that show up in Retribution?
- The reason they guard this so secretively, to the point of destroying and even in some cases forgetting their own history, is because their geneseed gives them a predisposition to psychic powers, hence their large numbers of Librarians, and the only known chapter to unite the offices of Chapter Master and Chief Librarian. This also makes them much more susceptible to chaotic taint than any other chapter, so much that an Inquisitor would look at them and see Chaos Marines waiting to happen. Not wanting to be exterminated, they scrapped and ferociously guarded their own records. Lo and behold, a number of Blood Ravens fell to the temptations of Chaos in Chaos Rising and Retribution.
- Taldeer figured it out in her Ham-to-Ham Combat with Thule in Dark Crusade, hence the epic burn Thule got, and why Taldeer was merely "captured" in their ending. She had figured out their psychic predisposition, probably even predicting the fall of some of the Blood Ravens to Chaos. Taldeer basically told Thule that she knew his chapter's dirty little secret, and Thule didn't want that secret going very far, and so he had her captured. The "secrets of Kronus" that Thule was so concerned about was in fact the big secret.
- For all we know, the Blood Ravens geneseed could very well be tainted by a hint of Eldar ancestry, which would, at the very least, be extremely humiliating for the Blood Ravens as a whole! Not to mention grounds for inquisition, at the worst.
- Eliphas could probably sense it, too. The reason he kept calling the Blood Ravens "brothers" wasn't because the Blood Ravens used to be traitors, but that they would be traitors in the future. And at least one of them would be: Avitus.
- Indrick Boreale probably figured this much at Kaurava. While a pretty sucky tactician for not being able to actually win the war at Kaurava, he realized that he couldn't let the Sisters of Battle figure out about this little quirk in their geneseed. And so, when things started looking bad, he deliberately led an entire five companies to their deaths, rather than letting the canonically-victorious Sisters of Battle figure out their little quirk.
- ... And your source for the Bolter Bitches' victory? Personally, I think Firaveous 'METAL BAWXES' Carron won. The pre release information for Chaos Rising a year ago said eh had 'dealt terrible wounds to the Blood Ravens in Kaurava'.
- The most popular theory is Vance "Motherfucking" Stubbs was the victor of the Kaurava campaign, but I personally think it was the Tau they had done the least absolutely stupid things of the armies.
- ... And your source for the Bolter Bitches' victory? Personally, I think Firaveous 'METAL BAWXES' Carron won. The pre release information for Chaos Rising a year ago said eh had 'dealt terrible wounds to the Blood Ravens in Kaurava'.
- This is now officially what happened. +1 Internets to you, sir. In the same vein then, the Chaos Marines in Soulstorm were actually another legion (most likely a World Eaters splinter faction given Carron's melee fixation, Khornate altars and sheer frothing-at-the-mouth senility) who were given Alpha Legion uniforms as part of a misdirection effort. Why? If we knew that, they wouldn't be the Alpha Legion...
As for Sindri, becoming a Daemon Prince was an unavoidable side effect of releasing that much Warp energy at once, either that or be destroyed entirely, and he hasn't appeared again because he was subsequently stuck in the Warp and can't help his brothers directly, though he is probably taking great joy in disrupting the Legions that take refuge in Warp Rifts.
Further arguments for the the Tau~=Necron theory include the fact that Bodyguards can be summoned to specific points (in this case, the Ethereal) like Warriors and Flayed Ones, and the fact that the Dark Crusade Necron stronghold shows that their buildings explode with a blue-white Sphere of Destruction, which is seen in Tau orbital strikes.
- The theory doesn't work. It's only taking superficial comparisons based on Dawn of War and ignoring things like how fundamentally different their technology functions or that the Tau are the only race that legitimately understand their technology, yet are almost entirely unaware Necrons exist, let alone Necron technology.
- Even in Dawn of War, these points don't all work.
- Drones don't disappear when they die, they explode, which is literally stated as one of their abilities.
- The Ethereal should not be able to deploy without a body guard anyways and it is hardly the only instance that units appear like that. The basic mechanism for reinforcement has soldiers appear out of nowhere. In addition, teleportation technology isn't remotely Necron only and the body guard are living beings.
- One building exploding in a common color for explosions is hardly a point.
- No Ork would pretend to be another Ork. It is completely pointless and would do nothing, even if they did think of it. Gorgutz has to use the same method as any other Ork to become Warboss of any group of Orks, kill the previous Warboss.
- I doubt it, as Neroth is hardly subtle, seeing as he keeps wanting to burn everything that gets in his way.
- Eliphas became considerably more aggressive post-revival, possibly a side-effect of being brought back to life in the Warp. It's possible Neroth/Sindri suffered the same fate.
- Even if we do accept that explanation it would still be unlikely for Sindri to come back because he was listed by the Daemon of the Maledictum as a sacrifice, implying that he consumed his essence...
- Yeah but it is Sindri though and he's infamous for somehow planning for everything. It might not be too farfetched to assume he disguised some souls as his and force fed them to the daemon
- Oh come now, it's completely implausible. Imagine if a Chaos Space Marine was defeated by the Blood Ravens, then came back to life serving a different Legion and considerably more bloodthirsty than their previous in-love-with-their-own-voice Magnificent Bastard self. Why, the fanbase would revolt and hate this character!
- Farseer Taldeer would then murder Sturnn after the Imperial Guard had secured the Titan
Dark Crusade is all the Blood Ravens ending however, as conversations in Dawn of War II, Chaos Rising and Retribution have them defeat the Necrons, Guard, Chaos and Eldar, and some wargear descriptions have them defeating the Tau (that still leaves Orks, but it's probably a given that Gorgutz managed to escape again).
Chaos Rising has Angelos declare the Commander to be Captain of the fourth company, but in order to fool Kyras has him and Thaddeus on a campaign somewhere far away from the sub-sector, calling him back to the main force of the Chapter after he himself is declared Chapter Master.
Retribution has Diomedes defeat Kyras and Angelos declared Chapter Master, Adrastia clearing the sub-sector of heresy and halting the Exterminatus, Bluddflag commandeering the Judgement of Carrion as his new Kroozer, Eliphas escaping to plague the Blood Ravens for years to come, Ronahn reclaiming Taldeer's soulstone, and the Hive Lord rejoining the Hive Mind to share the knowledge it has obtained of the sub-sector.
I'd mention Soulstorm, but that doesn't exist.
- Well Cyrus mentions Karauva so Boreale definitely got himself and four or so companies killed. Possibly Kyras intentionally put him in a position beyond his skill to weaken the Blood Ravens to more easily sway them to Chaos.
- Not really the case. Slaanesh is the god of pleasure, not just sex. Daemonettes are the only potentially objectionable unit have been used in Warhammer Online without issues. In addition, the following the pattern, they would most likely use the Keeper of Secrets, Noise Marines, and a demon unit. Even if Daemonettes were an issue, Fiends and Seekers are also options.
- This troper will go one further and not only bet that the Tzeentch branch of chaos will be prominently featured in the game (or it's expansion if chaos misses the boat again) but will also herald the return of the fanbase's favorite chessmaster, who is only presumed dead anyway on the word of a demon.
- It would probably be more accurate to say the brotherhood is based on the Mechinicus
- That said, the Brotherhood is one of the closest imitations of the Space Marines to be found in other settings. Given their general aesthetic and their monastic, hyper-religious Catholic Knight attitude.
- /tg/ agrees with you.
- Vance didn't lose them 100 Baneblades; they were assigned elsewhere.
- To Cadia to stop Failbaddon's latest incursion
- I know, but that's what everybody else thinks- OH CRAP!!! IT'S PENETRATED THE FOURTH WALL!!! IT'S LIKE A CREEPYPASTA, ONLY REAL!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- All in all, this is a very plausible explanation. Like all things related to Chaos, Warpstorms do cause madness and psychopathy.
- They were assigned elsewhere just as Stubbs' base is attacked. There Are No Coincidences in 40K, only Tzeentch's plans coming together.
- Vance didn't lose them 100 Baneblades; they were assigned elsewhere.
The Dark Eldar defeated the Sisters of Battle (to avoid the pointless inter-Imperium conflict) and the Necrons defeated the Eldar. They were then eliminated by Chaos and Imperial Guard, respectively.
Then the Imperial Guard made Carron cry and crushed Chaos.
And just for fun: then the warp storm grew and started pulling in all the planets, forcing Stubbs to retreat. The planets crashed into each other, broke and were swallowed by the warp. But this was not a victory for Chaos, because many Necrons were still buried on Kaurava III. Now that section of the warp is filled with pissed off Necrons and a bunch of random baneblades floating around.
- Thus, the batshit insane, frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic, and what other similarly undesirable nutcases had accumulated within the Alpha Legion due to long-term Warp exposure, were handed a "vitally important" mission to the Kaurava system because Alpharius/Omegon thought the legion would be better off without them.
Eliphas's punishment is to be erased from existence, to be replaced by another Eliphas, one that would join the Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion before appearing in Dawn of War II.