So for the Persona 3 section, user Blazing Trolls seems to be trying to bias the page. They removed a line discussing the evidence for Aigis with no clear reason, and also claimed that PQ provides no evidence for Aigis but evidence for Yukari. This is patently false. Aside from the option to call her cute, there aren't any shiptease moments between them. PQ also has Chie assuming Makoto and Aigis are dating. Neither corrects them, and Aigis later says they are.
So yeah. I don't see why these things are being removed.
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Really if anything before my edits are not bias. Look I didn’t really take anything away from Aigis. I just took away the part that said other romance option was less explicitly romantic because that’s not accurate. The person who previously editited this section had a bias twords and we have been fixing his edits on the main page for a while.
You removed evidence and made a new claim without providing new evidence. That is biased, since you are deliberately removing evidence for one side of a claim. And am I to understand you've been systematically removing another users edits?
Again no. I reworded the the edit so there was no ymmv. I gave my reason in previous edits. The argument “Their scenes are comparatively less explicit”, is not really acurate as her scenes are probably just as explici as Aigis. So ultimately it seemed more of a case of YMMV.
As for user question: no. Their was a user with a Aigis bias who was banned for starting a edit war on the character page. After they where banned other users spent nearly a month cleaning the mess. But I didn’t systematically delete their edits. Only the ones with bias, like the other users.
Aside from the protagonist's suggested attraction upon first seeing Aigis and a few scenes in which they hold hands, the most notable implication is the ending of the game, in which he dies after falling asleep in her lap
You removed this claim. There was no reason to. I've played the game in question and these events absolutely happen. I also note how they link to tropes describing how the evidence fits with the argument.
Also, you still haven't responded to the PQ claim.
i also didn’t include every every romantic Yukari moment. I just decided to sum up each point rather than list every example. As I mentioned when I made the edit. Each example holds ymmv on how romantic you view them. This isn’t a page to argue each case, it’s supposed to sum things up.
Also there is only one moment I can remember where the player holds Aigis’s hand and that’s at the end of her social link that was added to FES. So it would be among the examples do to being in a social link.
The hand holding isn't true. They do it after her fight on the moonlight bridge and at the end of the game when he is in her lap as well.
And this isn't a case of excess detail. If you wish to describe some evidence for Yukari as well, that's fine. But removing evidence for a side that you seem to disagree with is unexceptable.
Anyways, this is getting us nowhere. I'm going to report you.
You have no reason to report me because I’ve done nothing wrong. I havn’t been malicious in any way and have been disscusion go my points with you.
Isn't there discussion on this page that lands at "Aigis counts, Yukari doesn't"?
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It’s probably worth looking into more. All in all between the two it can be summed up Yukari has moments in the first half and Aigis the second(or maybe more like last third). The fact the awnser shows they both have feelings for him probably means something. Ultimately the game doesn’t go out of its way to confirm who MC has feelings for. Apart from blushing with Yukari and the option to call her cute, and Hart’s from the boys with Aigis being played for laughs, none of this is really enough to declare one over the other.
I mean, it is though? The game unambiguously establishes Aigis' feelings towards the MC. Yukari gets some likely one-sided ship tease, which, as you mention, are pretty much gone by the time Aigis shows up. And in the end, Aigis is the one that the MC dies with in a blatantly romantic pose. That is considerably more implication than literally everything for Yukari. Not to mention Kimi No Kioku.
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There is nothing that indicates Aigis feelings weren’t one sided any more than Yukari. I would argue the death scene itself wasn’t overtly romantic in itself. Ultimately it seems to come down YMMV, which is usually the problem with games where you choose romance. Unlike Tatsuya and Maya in P2, there is nothing to indicate anything was reciprocated.
Other material also seems to switch between Yukari and Aigis so it’s probably easier if we do something similar to P5 and list each example under Ship Tease with reasons.
If we don't count the social link events, the protagonist doesn't show any feelings for anyone. This include Aigis. Being a Heroic Mime and all, anything he does can be considered platonic.
Both of your statements that there "isn't anything" to suggest Makoto has feelings for Aigis are just false. As Larkman pointed out, there is the ending. He dies in a romantic situation with Aigis, and P 3 P's alternative ending reaffirms that it WAS romantic. Not that there was much doubt anyways. Plus the heart symbol. And them holding hands. And Chie's comment in Persona Q. Etc, etc. With Yukari, there IS shiptease but it never goes further than that unless the player chooses. With Aigis, half the time it seems like they ARE together, but there isn't anything explicit sense. Hence, it's a textbook case of implied love interest, and a heavy one at that.
The difference is that Aigis' scenes imply reciprocation. You can't say that the lap pillow trope, which is primarily for lovers, or the heart symbol don't suggest that the protagonist reciprocates.
The hearts were played for laughs. He actually blushed with Yukari.
Does that suggest he reciprocates either? Not really.
"The hearts were played for laughs" is a YMMV interpretation if I ever saw one. You've got Junpei and Akihiko going on about how cute Aigis until she ends up as a robot. Just because the scene was comedic in tone doesn't mean that it, doesn't count or something. But you know what probably shouldn't? The scene you're referring to with Yukari which was ALSO comedic, and the game gives you the option to say that you're not interested in any of them a second later, so that's kinda irrelevant. No such option exists with Aigis.
Also you kinda just...ignored the rest of the points? Especially the lap pillow scene?
Also, it doesn't have to be "proven" that Makoto likes Aigis. That would make her a love interest. That's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that she is an "implied love interest". That means that all one has to prove is that there is solid implication Makoto likes her back that occurs outside player choices. The lap pillow scene alone suffices for that, not even bringing up all the other evidence that Blazing here is ignoring.
Note that "solid implication" doesn't mean there are "no" possible alternative explanations. It only means that is where the evidence points.
So, here's the thing. It is Implied Love Interest. No one is saying it is spelled out blatantly and Aigis is the MC's OTP. It's just that the game puts way more romantic subtext for Aigis than any other option. And that is okay.
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Yes, exactly. I think the only reason that this is controversial is that the game pulls a bit of a bait-and-switch. Factually speaking, it's pretty straightforward.
Alright now that the mods have delt with Trkasu we can continue. If Aigis was the only person to have romantic interactions with the MC I would understand. But as pointed out she wasn’t.
So, here's the thing. The work establishes that Aigis has romantic feelings for MC. It also establishes that she's also the most important relationship of the MC, as evidenced by the fact she gets singled out in much more significant ways than anyone else.
It stops short on saying he reciprocates romantically, but that is what keeps it "implied." It's fairly cut-and-dry.
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The work also establishes Yukaris feelings. She also gets a lot emphasis in this work as well as side material, so I’d say both points should at least be made. If Aigis was the only romantic interest I’d understand, but she’s not. Both Yukari and Aigis are deliberately portrayed in romantic light.
Yukari's interest is deliberately portrayed in romantic light. MC's feelings towards her, romantic or not, are not given anything near the level that Aigis' are.
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THE Mc has the option to express attraction to Yukari mutiple time out side of the slink. It’s the only time I can think the Mc can do that outside of slink. There is nothing confirmed about his feelings with Aigis.
Again I’m not saying there is no romantic context with Aigis but there is some context with Yukari that even MM_Crusader summed up in the edit reason. Look I’m not saying we need to remove Aigis but we should keep the Yukari entery. Or we could move both under Ship Tease as previous suggested. However the fact that three people can see it diffrent ways probably means there is never going to be clear agreement. So we can at least acknowledge both arguments.
I don't see what's the problem with this. it's already confirm Yukari has a canon crush on him with many non player option scenes in the main game and spin offs to support it. It's like Marie and Rise's case in Persona 4 which was explained in the same page.
^^ It's a gross false equivalence to claim "has the option to express attraction" to "dies resting in her lap and the final song of the game is about their relationship."
Part of the problem with the Yukari examples is that while there are ship teases early in the game and several She Is Not My Girlfriend moments in particular is that... well, she was not his girlfriend. The social link cannot have even started by then. She's actually closer to The Not-Love Interest at that point since it's incredibly explicit that their hypothetical relationship hasn't even begun to blossom.
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This is getting unwieldy, especially with how the discussion pages are currently broken, so I asked in the Is This An Example? thread
. I don't really know the Yukari argument other than what's on the discussion and was on the page, so please go there and add to it if I left anything out.
- Ninian for Eliwood in Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade, supported by the fact that Ninian is canonically in love with him. Nino and Jaffar also count, as do Hector and Lyndis, especially in Hector's own story.
- Liara T'Soni in Mass Effect. In the first Mass Effect she was the only character who could be romanced by both genders, and by later games she gets upgraded to being "Shepard's closest companion" regardless of how you actually treated her in conversations. Most damning enough is that, before the extended cut of Mass Effect 3, she was always the player's final thoughts as Shepard dies unless they romanced Ashley or Kaidan. Regardless, it's a contentious subject amongst the Bioware fanbase.
- Persona:
- Persona 3:
- The game is rather heavy with one of the potential love interests, Aigis. She's a full-blown Stalker with a Crush, justified that she sealed Death into the protagonist but doesn't remember it consciously for most of the game, so she feels a strong urge to stay by him without knowing why. Aside from the protagonist's suggested attraction upon first seeing Aigis and a few scenes in which they hold hands, the most notable implication is the ending of the game, in which he dies after falling asleep in her lap Since the game's Social Links officially give the player the final choice in the matter, this has caused a lot of debate in the fandom. Later installments in the series like Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth and even the movie adaptation also put more emphasis on their relationship.
- Before Aigis's introduction, Yukari Takeba is given some ship tease with the Protagonist. Although their scenes are comparatively less explicit and more player-driven (the only physical interaction being an optional hug) and end once her Social Link opens, this intensified the debate. Given that early in development, Yukari was planned as the canon Love Interest, these scenes may be a holdover from the change.
- In the PSP remake, the female protagonist has some Ship Tease between her and Shinjiro Aragaki, particularly in the later stages of his Social Link, whether or not he is romanced. The existing Ship Tease with Aigis remains, albeit with Aigis' Love Confession being worded somewhat more vaguely.
- Ryoji Mochizuki is another one for the female protagonist. He’s the only character in her route whose social link (besides Pharos, who is technically his younger self) will advance through storyline progression and has extended snippets of voiced dialogue in each rank. His social link in general contains a lot of romantic imagery (which he even notes sometimes), and if you max out his social link, he will give her a ring to remember him by before he is assimilated to become Nyx.
- Persona 4 manages to avert this for the most part. While one of the companions, Rise, has a blatant crush on the protagonist, and is seen calling out an anguished love confession during the ending movie as the protagonist rides the train out of Inaba, no one character is given more in-game moments than another. That was until the Updated Re-release, Persona 4 Golden, introduced Marie. She holds a connection to the protagonist that none of his other friends do, she's frequently placed into She's Not My Girlfriend moments, she's one of the few love interests to actually kiss the player character and the climax of her story carries a lot of romantic undertones regardless of whether or not the player actually pursues a romance with her. She also always shows up outside the Dojima house to give the player character chocolate, even if the PC didn't romance her or if he just got back from a date with someone else.
- Persona 3:
- Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
- According to the Official Guide, Fayt begins the game having the highest affection points toward Sophia; making her the easiest of the girls for him to end up with. Yet several of the game's cutscenes imply that they're only friends. Even if you do get the paired ending with Sophia, it still seems that's as far as it goes.
- According to the Official Guide, Fayt begins the game having the highest affection points toward Sophia; making her the easiest of the girls for him to end up with. Yet several of the game's cutscenes imply that they're only friends.
- While Colette is the official Love Interest in Tales of Symphonia, it's easy to bungle Lloyd's relationship with her and any of the characters can be paired with Lloyd in the end due to Multiple Endings and Relationship Values, with Sheena, Zelos, and Genis getting the most Ship Tease throughout the game.
- That said, while it's fairly easy to do so, the player does have to make a deliberate attempt, and if you intentionally avoid picking one at all, the game will go with her by default. The sequel skirts very close to declaring it by default, but also ultimately lets the player choose via Schrödinger's Question.
Cleanup Time! These examples are "Can Be romanced if player choses to" rather than "It's not made clear if they're an item" this trope is supposed to be. In other words it's Not That Trope.
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I can only attest to the Persona games and Tales Of Symphonia, but here's my two cents:
- Persona 3: Aigis is the deutragonist and gets more screen time of the members of SEES, but I don't think she's an Implied Love Interest. And everyone else is even less so.
- Persona 4: Marie absolutely counts in that "the game gives players a nudge to her" way. Maxing out her Social Link is necessity in the game, and even if you don't, she automatically spends Valentine's Day with the protagonist. And the Golden Ending has her say that she loves the protagonist on TV. So she can be not romanced but the game definitely pushes the player that way and implies that it's the way to go.
- TOS: Oh good lord Colette counts.
That's my point. This trope isn't "Can be romanced but it isn't nessecity". This isn't even stricktly VG trope. The way you discribed it it seems like she is clearly made part of romantic couple if you chose to, and clearly isn't should you chose otherwise. The fact that she's the option the creators prefer doesn't matter. "The Implied Love Interest is when one character fills the role of a Love Interest to another character in the narrative, or otherwise has a lot of tropes related to being a Love Interest surrounding them, but nothing explicit in the narrative or from the creators is ever stated on the matter." How does it fit this definition?
Ok, i've read the description more carefully and... i officially made an idiot out of myself. The description DOES say about more hinted romance option. Feel free to correct my mistakes.
That being said i'm not sure if this should be one and the same trope. Sure both of these feel like tropes but... it seems to me that "Romance option that is more preferd than others" and "is hinted to have romantic feelings but nothing is clearly stated" are two entriely different things and should be made into two different tropes.
I honestly think it's okay if there's romantic subtext in the main story, independent of player choice, but if it's dependent on interactions within Social Links or specific dialogue options, it shouldn't count.
In the Persona example, I think that Aigis MIGHT count, but Shinjiro shouldn't (seriously, that's just the Shipping Goggles talking)
Edited by Emu0
With regards to Persona 3 - Aigis absolutely counts. The evidence for the pairing is fairly overwhelming. The love interest trope usage is heavy, and it is completely outside of player choices. Remember, the first two releases of the game and the films have him dying alone with her in her lap, regardless of player choices. There just hasn't been anything explicit saying whether they are or aren't together. If I had to guess, it's a case of gameplay-story conflict. The writers wanted Aigis to be the canon love interest but didn't want to explicitly discount player choices. So this was sort of meeting it halfway.
Edited by joeshmo
My issue with Aigis is more that while it's super clear that she's in love with the main character, evidence of reciprocation is limited due to the whole Silent Protagonist thing.
... though I suppose the lap pillow thing is pretty significant. I can change my vote to a weak support (or maybe an implied support) for Aigis.
... but seriously, cut Yukari and Shinji.
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I think cutting the other two is fine. There's no real implication that the MC likes Yukari, and same with Fe MC liking Shinji. With Aigis, you've got to pretty much just ignore a lot of significant scenes if you want to say it isn't at least implied.
I thought I read somewhere that Yukari was originally going to be the love interest before Dating Sim elements were introduced?
If you absolutely absolutely had to pick one, I guess it'd be Aigis, but any subtext with ANYONE is going to be pretty damned faint on the MC's side; the ability to choose that sort of thing is a big part of the series.
(I mean, in P 3 P, you get to choose who to spend the end of the game with on a New Game Plus)
Edited by Emu0
I don't think it matters much whether or not Yukari was "going" to be the official love interest, as that goes with it the fact that she isn't.
What is more noteworthy is that P 3 P lets you choose who to end the game with in NG+. The NG+ reaffirms that the canonicity of the original ending isn't challenged, but it also proves that the romantic context of the ending WAS intentional, or at the very least, the creators are aware.
That's not exactly player choice now is it?
The entry for Persona 3 is getting kind of cluttered. It seems as though every instance of Ship Tease is getting counted as "proof" that the character in question is an Implied Love Interest, which doesn't really work in a game that's half Dating Sim. Should the criteria be a bit more strict in this case?
Edited by Emu0 Hide / Show Replies
If a game gives a choice to make a love interest then i don't think it fits this trope at all. As far as i understand it's when whether or not the characters are in love or not is left in the air.
Kingdoms of Amalur: The Reckoning I always feel like the main character was/is a love interest of Alyn Shir. It was never explicitly stated, but it feels like she cares. It was never mentioned by other characters. Everything is only based on what Alyn Shir says throughout the game and the ending note "..., I remain, Yours, Alyn Shir." Would it be right to put it in as trope example? or would it be too obvious for it to be implied? New troper here.
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Didn't you just describe this exact trope? Haven't seen game in question but from what i see it's clearly an example.
I have removed the Inuyasha example to here as it's turning into an Edit War and PMs, while completely calm and polite, aren't resolving it either because edits are being made as the PMs take place. This is the proper place to discuss the example.
The example that was changed was this:
- InuYasha: Sesshoumaru and Kagura. Rin's observations and Kagura's thoughts imply Kagura's in love with Sesshoumaru. Sesshoumaru's confirmed to have feelings for Kagura, but Takahashi leaves their exact nature open to interpretation.
This was originally considered a suitable fix for the monstrous Word Cruft that existed previously. A Wonk problem occurred recently and, as per Ask The Tropers, was reverted back to the above example. Unfortunately, over the past few days, the example keeps getting edited to bring Word Cruft creeping back in. I agreed in PMs that the Sesshoumaru sentence might be considered zero context, so suggested an edit of this (to keep it consistent with the Kagura sentence):
- InuYasha: Sesshoumaru and Kagura. Rin's observations and Kagura's thoughts imply Kagura's in love with Sesshoumaru. Mouryoumaru and Toutousai's comments and Sesshoumaru's thoughts confirm Sesshoumaru had feelings for Kagura but Takahashi leaves their exact nature open to interpretation.
However, the example continues to be edited to keep pushing detail into the Sesshoumaru example. Since detailed examples are not being used for the Kagura side, I don't see the point of pushing detailed examples into the Sesshoumaru sentence. That's just starting the creep back to unwieldy and pointless Word Cruft.
Edited by 2.100.114.143 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
how's this then:
Inu Yasha: Sesshoumaru and Kagura. Rin's observations and Kagura's thoughts imply Kagura's in love with Sesshoumaru. Tenseiga being reforged into a fighting weapon because of his feeling for her confirm Sesshoumaru had feelings for Kagura but Takahashi leaves their exact nature open to interpretation.
The original intent of the Inu Yasha entry was to make an entry that limited the subjectiveness as much as possible which is why not all incidents from the manga were put in. This was in the interest of posting something that would not trigger a ship war.
I had been hoping it could remain entirely in that spirit and an Edit War over the additions of entirely interpretational incidents that had been deliberately left out (on those grounds) is not something I would like to get involved in.
As a result, I will leave the example as it currently stands and will not be revisiting or editing this any further. Please can further edits be avoided if all it's for is to squash further examples or expand on examples already given? The entry is comprehensive enough as it stands. It doesn't matter if not everything in the manga has been included.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
I don't want to leave it like this: * InuYasha: Sesshoumaru and Kagura. Rin's observations and Kagura's thoughts imply Kagura's in love with Sesshoumaru. Sesshoumaru's confirmed to have feelings for Kagura, but Takahashi leaves their exact nature open to interpretation.
Because that doesn't tell you about what actually happened in the manga between them. So can we please leave it like this: * InuYasha: Sesshoumaru and Kagura. Rin's observations and Kagura's thoughts imply Kagura's in love with Sesshoumaru. Sesshoumaru's confirmed to have feelings for Kagura, most notably with the breaking of Tokijin defending her and of Tenseiga transforming into a fighting weapon because of his feelings for Kagura and him vowing over the sword to avenge her but Takahashi leaves their exact nature open to interpretation.
So that it tells people about what actually happened between them, i.e. HOW Sesshomaru was confirmed to have feelings for Kagura?
Removed the following. The reason should be obvious:
- Roy and Riza are pretty much considered to be the Beta Couple in Fullmetal Alchemist. It's very clear they care very deeply for each other but it was never confirmed if they were in a relationship.
- It's been confirmed through supplementary material that if they weren't both in the army, they would be dating.
- Not just dating. If it weren't for the anti-fraternization law in the military, they would be married.
- It's been confirmed through supplementary material that if they weren't both in the army, they would be dating.
The line about Kingdom Hearts has: 'In an inversion to the official status of the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith situation' with a Canon tag on it (implying it's canon in FF 7 that Cloud is with Tifa). Since this is still often debated can the canon tag be removed? I'd make the example more neutral but I don't know if it counts as edit warring.
Edited by zoopyDoopy Hide / Show Replies