Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I don't think you understand what this trope actually is. You say he fits with the new criteria? Proof it, because just saying he does and not actually saying how he fits each criteria isn't actually proving anything.

Being a horrible person doesn't make you a Complete Monster. It's being so unbelievable evil that it is completely and utterly impossible to say one decent thing about your character, you have no redeeming qualities, your mere presense in a work makes it just a little bit darker, and the idea of any amount of character development making them redeamable and less evil is completely inconcievable.

You seem to think that this trope is either "I hate this character, therefore he's a CM" or "I think having a CM would make this work even cooler."

He failed because he fails to hit the baseline for evil acts to be called "complete henious" and he's less evil than Cyrus who doesn't qualify. End of story. Unless you can go back to page 139 and read all the arguments that were brought up

Jordan, thanks for the reminder about how things turned out with the Blue Bard scene. Been a long time since I've read that. I still have to agree with the others though that Qyburn doesn't qualify, due to Offscreen Villainy. Also torture is pretty common. I'm with you that he probably is one of the most evil characters in the series (there's just something about him that gives off that vibe) but until we see some more of his work I think he should be kept off.

I've requested that Tywin be cut. I'll try and do a write-up for Rorge.

On the Power Rangers examples, I think most of those should be cut. Venjix, however bad the example, does deserve a rewrite and a place on the page. I have trouble thinking of a villain in the franchise who could top him, and he's one of the few villains (along with Bansheera and Deviot) who I think qualify. I might try and do a rewrite, because good lord that is a bad one.

edited 7th Oct '12 11:16:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

What about Zeus and Ares from God of War? I'm not sure if they count simply because of the fact that they're gods, Jerkass Gods true, but deities are too subject to Blue-and-Orange Morality.

Zeus doesn't, but I think that Ares does. Gods generally shouldn't count, but in Go W, almost all of the characters are gods, and they act just like people.

Agree with keeping Ares and cutting Zeus.

And returning to Tywin Lannister and Amory Lorch, I would personally delete Tywin, but I would keep Lorch. What he did happened sort of in a flashback; not off-screen. And I support adding Rorge.

@nrjxll

I don't even consider Tywing 99% monster but 95%. I doubt that he even hits the heinous standard, particularly with Clegane or Ramsay around. Barely, but not enough.

Also, reading Film, I noticed;

• John Leslie Stevenson (AKA Jack The Ripper) from Time After Time starts by killing a prostitute in the first ten minutes of the film. After escaping the police by traveling to the future, he continues his killing spree and blackmails H.G. Wells (who followed Stevenson to 1979) by threatening to kill the woman Wells fell in love with, if he doesn't give Stevenson the key that will prevent the time machine from returning to its time of departure and thus allowing Wells to continue following him. When Wells gives Stevenson the key, he continues to hold the women Wells fell in love with hostage anyway. Stevenson's motivation for becoming the Ripper is a philosophy that violence is the natural order of things and that you might as well embrace it. Stevenson's Fate Worse than Death comes across as well-deserved.

Doesn't strike me as that bad at all. Just like a standard villain. Kindnaping the woman that The Hero loves us a standard villainy to me.

edited 8th Oct '12 10:47:42 AM by Krystoff

Also Aye for Ares and Nay for Zeus.

Any further ideas on the Kirby subpage? I still do maintain that the lot of them isn't well-written at all, and I suspect there wouldn't be enough true monsters to even justify a Kirby of the Stars subpage.

edited 8th Oct '12 11:02:38 AM by EarlOfSandvich

Wolf Wrath: Standard villain

Octacon: Eats sheep, also, the writers of this heaps too much praise on kirby, that doesn't help the Complete Monster case.

Kirisakin: Also standard villain

Anige: Lot's of For the Evulz, worse than the others, but ultimately, no.

Nightmare: Well, in the games he was the manifestation of nightmares (Thus Made of Evil, then again, he might have just been a dark force in the fountain of dreams which manifested as a nightmare). In the anime, he's a big monster/creature/thing. He's done some pretty nasty things. He's sent the Demon Beasts to De De De and countless other planets, making money and subjugating them. He sends a Destrayer (Giant Spaceship) and tries to wipe out the village. One of the worst things he's done is take Knuckle Joe's father's dying body, bring him to life and corrupt him to screw with the Star Warriors (Meta Knight would hesitate hitting his best friend, but ultimately, MK killed him), and lead an attack on their camp.

edited 8th Oct '12 2:17:35 PM by DrPsyche

@3703: Just because beings aren’t human doesn’t automatically mean they operate under Blue-and-Orange Morality. Gods, demons, big creepy monsters, Scary Dogmatic Aliens, etc., can still be “human” enough to qualify for the trope, which I believe is the case in God Of War. That being said, since Zeus is said to be effected by Pandora’s Box, he’s not fully under control of his actions and shouldn’t be listed.

@3696: You’re right on removing the Ghittish Empire from Dragon Quest and the Teltin scientists from Mass Effect. Actually, before the clean-up effort occurred I voted in favor of adding the Teltin scientists, this was before the no group provision was in effect but you’re right, they need to be cut now.

Actually, the entries on the Mass Effect monster page could use serious rewrites; it also needs an entry for Henry Lawson who was decided as counting a while ago. Here are some proposed rewrites:

• Dr. Saleon, a salarian geneticist who ran a black market organ operation. He would make his profit by growing organs inside his employees, all of whom were poor and desperate. If the organ turned out good, he would remove it and give the employee a cut of his profits. If the organ went bad though, he’d just leave it in the employee’s body to rot. When he was found out, he escaped by taking his employees hostage. After a long period in hiding, he’s encountered on his ship where he’s been experimenting on people, having turned his subjects into monstrous abominations. If Shepard manages to convince Garrus to show mercy and arrest Saleon instead of killing him, the doctor will respond by trying to kill them.
• Nassana Dantius, while clearly not a good person in the first game, having manipulated Shepard into killing her slaver sister, Dahlia, to prevent Dahlia from blackmailing her, it’s not until the second game that Nassana jumps off the slippery slope. In Mass Effect 2, she has employees who fail in fulfilling their contracts killed, and, when her employees are too slow in evacuating her offices while an assassin is after her, she has her mechs and mercenaries gun them down en masse.
• Henry Lawson, an egomaniacal Corrupt Corporate Executive obsessed with having a dynasty. To that end he creates Designer Babies based off of his DNA. Viewing them only as tools, he controls them their entire lives, molding them to meet his expectations, such as Miranda. Should any of them be subpar, he kills them. When he appears in Mass Effect 3, he’s working with the Illusive Man in using a refugee camp, Sanctuary, as a front for gathering test subjects to study Reaper Indoctrination. Thousands of civilians are experimented on, including children, and are either killed or turned into husks. Unlike the rest of Cerberus, who are trying to help humanity, Lawson is only committing atrocities to save his own life and have future generations idolize him. He’s not even Indoctrinated like the rest, having found a way to overcome and control its effects. When he’s cornered by Shepard, Henry uses his younger daughter, Orianna, as a Human Shield, and, depending upon the player’s actions, he can end up killing either Orianna or Miranda.

edited 8th Oct '12 9:22:06 PM by OccasionalExister

Well, that was a long weekend of not enough sleep. Could someone do me a huge favor and direct me to the posts that could use some consideration? I'll hit those and some more of the video game sandbox later today.

Does anybody object to me requesting to cut the example that I brought up?

Let's see what we have so far as far as gaming subpages go (starting with 137 I assume):

• Ace Attorney: Hawthorne, Gavin, Engarde and Alba all look like keepers, albeit still needing a rewrite
• Artix Entertainment: On one of your posts, only one keeper in Krellenos, and in need of a wicked good rewrite.
• Breath of Fire: Seems like only two entries qualify, as you also brought up.
• Disgaea: Doesn't look like we'll keep the subpage.
• The Elder Scrolls: Been addressed, fixed and locked.
• Fallout: I did raise a few concerns, of which that for Vulpes has been addressed and we can keep as-is. We can revise Myron to make it that he bragged about killing a hundred slaves with heart conditions in the drug, rather than the mention of killings alone as if we see it. For Salt-Upon-Wounds', his monstrosity does depend on backstory, albeit his people still being fierce and him visibly intending to massacre the Sorrows when you aid in their escape. I wouldn't gripe if he gets cut though.
• Jak And Daxter: I heard from Occasional Exister that Praxis should not have been cited as Well-Intentioned Extremist anywhere (let alone a character page), and that the rest of the entries wouldn't qualify.
• Kirby: It appears we're only keeping the Nightmare from Kirby of the Stars, but even so to the Anime & Manga section (on this page of course)
• League of Legends: Cutlisted for almost a week at this point
• Mario: Only two entries from the Paper Mario series qualify; entries already placed in the sandbox. Possible cutlist in order (from 141 onwards)
• Mass Effect: Mentioned on this page
• Myst: I've given my thoughts here
• Pokémon: Merged, narrowed and locked, though it still has room for revision.

I suppose that leaves 15 still to be addressed.

edited 9th Oct '12 9:23:10 AM by EarlOfSandvich

@3708 Yeah, I definitely support adding Henry Lawson.

Also, it's been a while since I've played Mass Effect 3, but wouldn't Kai Leng count? I mean, he and his mercs indiscriminately kill hundreds of civilians on the citadel just to get to the Council, he killed the group of unarmed scientists on Thessia who were waiting for Shepard, and after Thessia was all but destroyed, he sent a taunting message to Shepard titled "Evacuating Thessia", disguised as asari military command, just to rub salt in the wound. Unlike Saren or the Illusive Man, there's no dialogue option that gets him to admit that he was wrong, or display any remorse for his actions. Up to his dying breath, he just wants Shepard dead. I guess you could argue that he's "just following orders" but he regularly goes far beyond his orders to sate his desire for violence. Even if you don't agree that he qualifies, he's still the biggest asshole in the series.

edited 9th Oct '12 9:50:23 AM by Camberf

@ Footsteps: Here are a few

3708

3706

3705

3703

3696

3690

3689

3677

3674

I made the request for Tywin to be cut a couple of days ago, given that after a count there were five tropers (not including myself) who thought he should go. They still haven't removed him from the page; I'm going to assume it's overwork, and wait a while before bothering them again. Will try to do a tentative write-up for Rorge (same series) tonight.

@3712: The biggest problem with adding Kai Leng on the basis of his Mass Effect 3 actions, is that it’s revealed he’s been Indoctrinated like the rest of Cerberus at some point in the game. This calls how responsible he is for his actions into question. If he were to be added it would have to be based on his actions in the novels Retribution and Deception, which take place before his indoctrination. However, currently Deception is being rewritten due to all the lore and characterization errors that take place in it, meaning it’s canonocity (who doesn’t like making up words?) has been called into question. So Retribution would have to form the basis of his qualifying. I haven’t read it but if anyone else has, maybe they could give some input.

@3705: It’s just with Amory that his most frequently cited worst act is his killing of the little princess but, in the books, child killing, along with rape and torture, while reprehensible, is fairly common. Gregor killed a baby and raped his believed to be mother while his brains were still on his hands and had a little girl tortured to death seemingly just cause. Meanwhile, Jamie attempted to kill Bran for seeing too much, Cersei has Robert’s bastards killed, Theon killed two little boys, King Robert ordered the death of fourteen-year-old Daenerys, Darkstar attempted to kill Princess Marcella, Raf the Sweetling killed Gendry because it was easier than carrying the boy, Mance Rayder killed Little Walder to enflame hostilities between two parties, Craster gives his infant sons to the Others, and Sandor Clegane killed Arya’s friend just cause. Some of these perpetrators manage to retain sympathy, some do not, but the point is the act of child-killing happens way too frequently in the setting for it to be especially heinous, even if Amory did go about it in a particularly violent way. I just think in comparison to the others on the list, he doesn’t do very much before that bear eats him.

Now for Time After Time, having never seen the movie, I’d say it depends on how much of Jack’s serial killing is done onscreen. I don’t think it’s the holding the Love Interest hostage part that would make him hit the heinous standard; it’s the killing people, more or less, for fun part that does. That last line about the Fate Worse than Death being well deserved should be cut though.

edited 9th Oct '12 2:48:39 PM by OccasionalExister

I don't think Kai Leng from the game itself counts, he's just a standard Generic Doomsday Villain with a overblown big ass ego and a ultra smug snake. In the best possible route he only gets one kill on-screen(Thane), but to elaborate too much on that is Protagonist-Centered Morality.

Jerkass? Smug Snake? Love to Hate? Yes, Complete Monster? Debatable.

Books.....not so sure but if the books prove it than it would be fit more for literature section

edited 9th Oct '12 5:01:36 PM by xie323

Anyway, a write-up for Rorge from A Song Of Ice And Fire was suggested some time back, so here it is. I figure we can put it underneath the entry for Vargo Hoat, who is Rorge's paymaster in most of his early appearances.

Hoat's company, the Brave Companions, are a bad lot, but paedophiliac serial rapist and serial killer Rorge is acknowledged in-universe and out as the worst of them. Freed from the Black Cells under King's Landing, along with his companion, Biter, Rorge signs on with the Brave Companions after Arya Stark saves him from certain death. He offers to repay her by raping her with her own wooden sword, only stopping when she threatens him with Jaqen H'ghar. He later goes against Hoat's own orders when he tries to rape Brienne of Tarth, and tortures the recently crippled Jaime Lannister by kicking him in his stump, when Jaime reminds him that Brienne is supposed to remain unharmed. It's after Hoat's death, though, that Rorge really comes into his own. Taking control of a gang of brigands, he burns down the town of Saltpans, in an act so savage that it shocks the sensibilities of a Westeros long inured to the atrocities of Gregor Clegane and Vargo Hoat. Killing twenty men himself, Rorge rapes every woman and child in town, most notably raping a six year old girl while wearing chainmail; he also rapes nuns before feeding them to Biter. Upon encountering Brienne again, he expresses a desire to "cut off her legs and set her on her stumps so she can watch me fuck the crossbow girl." The girl in question is under ten years old. Sidematerials would indicate that he is also the reason why Biter is the way he is—finding an orphan boy, Rorge removed his tongue, filed his teeth, and made him fight dogs with only his new fangs. A consummate Woman & Child Hater, and a serial predator in a world full of warriors, Rorge earns the enmity and disgust of everyone he meets.

If everyone finds this acceptable, I'll post it in the thread tonight, along with another request to remove Tywin and Amory Lorch (whom I believe there was agreement to cut).

EDIT: Looking at the page, located here, it seems to me as though some of the examples, need a clean up. There's some natter under Joffrey, a line about Ramsay Bolton being a Karma Houdini when the series isn't even over yet, and some similar stuff, as well as the examples of Tywin and Lorch, who shouldn't be there.

edited 10th Oct '12 9:30:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

edited 9th Oct '12 6:21:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I also agree that Tywin should be removed. He doesn't really meet the heinousness of others in series. There are so many others that are leaps and bounds worse.

From what I understand Loach is a bad guy but hasn't done anything beyond standard stuff on screen. Cut due to off-screen villainy

edited 9th Oct '12 7:17:22 PM by SophiaLonesoul

Still trying to read through all the example pages so I'm not so far behind, but since Mass Effect has been on my brain lately...

Kai Leng: Heck no. As the Smug Snake page puts it, he is "possibly the biggest tool in the whole series", but even without the indoctrination, he doesn't really approach the heinousness standard. I haven't read the novels, but what I recall from the wiki's summary of Revelation indicates he wouldn't count there either.

Other example writeups: While they seem well-written, I actually find myself wondering if the first two really qualify, especially Nassana Dantius. While she may be a Bad Boss to the extreme, I just find it doubtful that her actions are really that much in a universe where giant mecha-Cthulhu liquefy entire planetary populations.

edited 9th Oct '12 7:12:12 PM by nrjxll

I think that from your write-up Ambar I would say that Rorge counts. He lacks in good points and is utterly vile even for the series.

In Retribution, Kai Leng:

• Kills an alien for daring to sleep with a human. He goes out of his way to do that too.

• Shoots a child as a diversion. The child lives, but only because the heroes let Leng go to save the kid's life.

And that's about all I can recall off the top of my head.

In Mass Effect 3, Kai Leng:

• Kills one of the heroes while trying to kill someone else.

• Can kill another one of the heroes, this time because he was specifically ordered to do so.

• Frequently mocks the main character for his/her failures.

I haven't read Deception, but it's currently not clear how much of it is canon.

As for redeeming features:

• He apparently gets a love interest in Deception and gets pissed off when she gets killed.

• He is genuinely loyal to his master.

• The organization he belongs to consists mostly of Well Intentioned Extremists. It's never really made clear as to whether Leng is one himself though.

edited 9th Oct '12 10:06:30 PM by lrrose

Thank you. Going off that it sounds like Kai Leng pulls some dick moves but doesn’t meet the heinous standard. I'd say keep him off.

@3720: Yeah, I see what you mean about Nassana and Saleon. I just provided rewrites since both of them survived an earlier clean-up effort for the Mass Effect monster page, though that did happen a year ago. Honestly, I think Nassana crosses the Moral Event Horizon in Mass Effect 2, but compared to the Reapers, or even other villains like Balak who tried to destroy a planet, she’s not in the same league. Saleon does bad actions but he never really gets a well-defined personality before being killed. Also his actions may likewise fail the heinous standard. I could see both being cut.

@Ambar: Good entry for Rorge.

edited 9th Oct '12 10:26:31 PM by OccasionalExister

Thank you. I figure that anyone bad enough to disgust Jaime Lannister, and shock people who've seen Gregor Clegane's work belongs on the page. Looking over the page, I think I'm going to ask them to cut the bullet point under Joffrey about him just being a kid, and the line about Ramsay Snow/Bolton being a Karma Houdini, since hey, it ain't over till it's over. I'm wondering if there are any other edits people feel should be made to the page. If there are, let me know, and I'll request them all at once when I have them add Rorge and cut Lorch.

EDIT: Does anybody else feel that these entries for Gregor Clegane and Craster need rewrites? I'm not claiming they don't qualify—far from it; Gregor is the series' definitive monster—but I think they might need some touch up.

"Ser Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides. Even Word Of God said that he was the most despicable character in the series. A terrifying giant of a knight, Gregor is a monster fueled by migraine headaches that keep him in a constant state of anger. He is a sexual sadist who takes a sick pleasure in slaughter, torture, and especially rape. Inventing gruesome tortures of his own, Gregor has an extremely black sense of humor. His Moral Event Horizon was burning his little brother Sandor's face in a brazier just because the latter played with Gregor's discarded toy. Another shocking (and fateful) act was when he smashed apart a baby's head against a wall, then raped the mother with his hands still covered in her baby's brains. Thankfully, his karmic death is a particularly nasty one that involves being stabbed with a poisoned spear and dying by agonising inches, pissing blood and pus. Unfortunately, it may be that he's not dead after all with those creepy experiments...

• It says something about Gregor that things which would and should normally make someone a Complete Monster are among some of his lesser, often forgotten crimes. Take a small bit from A Clash of Kings where each day, for ten days, Gregor picks one person from a group of villagers and has his Torture Technician, "the Tickler", question that person over and over, until they die from the torture. One of the villagers, a mother, volunteers to be taken if they will spare her daughter. The next day, he has the daughter questioned too, to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out."

"Craster is a particularly loathsome wildling with dozens of "wives" - most of them his own daughters and granddaughters. He "marries" his daughters and leaves the his infant sons as sacrifices for the Others."

I don't know. Craster's entry should probably be longer, and I think Gregor's needs to focus less on what happens to him and more on what he does.

edited 9th Oct '12 10:48:57 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

@3723 You can't compare the actions of a humanoid mortal being to those of the reapers. The reapers can't qualify because they are too far removed from humanity, it's the same reason why Satan or God can't qualify under normal circumstances. Besides, the reapers are simply doing what they're programmed to do, and in the Synthesis ending, they actually help rebuild galactic civilization. It's not like they really have free will.

Nassana and Saleon can only be compared to other free-willed beings, and in that regard, they both qualify completely.