Expy Cleanup Thread

So should I chainsaw the examples I think are bad? Because I think there's more bad examples than good on both of those pages.

edited 4th Dec '15 9:52:34 PM by YasminPerry

On the Literature subpage:

• "In Matilda, Bruce Bogtrotter and Michael Wormwood are expies of Augustus Gloop (both chocolate-loving gluttons) and Mike Teavee (both television addicts), respectively, from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Miss Trunchbull was based on Roald Dahl's real life boarding school matron, described in his memoir Boy Tales Of Childhood." I don't think an author using similar character personalities counts as an expy. And an author basing a character on a Real Life person isn't an expy, either.
• "Stock characters are pretty much the same across several of V. C. Andrews's series. The heroines, their love interests and their children seem to follow the same kind of mold, with a few deviations. So do the "evil grandmother" figures (Olivia Foxworth, Olivia Logan, Lillian Cutler ...), the "jealous sister" figures (Vera Whitefern, Fanny Casteel, Clara Sue Cutler, Allison Randolph ...), the "vain mother who doesn't care" (Corrine Dollanganger, Jillian Tatterton, Laura Sue Cutler, Haille Logan, Megan Hudson ...) and the "perverted old men" (Tony Tatterton, Octavius Tate, etc)." Again, stock character archetypes do not an expy make.
• " Vampire Hunter D was based on Phil Collins. No, really." Maybe I've gotten the definition of the trope wrong, but is a fictional character being based on a real person really an expy? If not, do we have a trope about this already?
• "Captain Nemo from Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea is an expy for Odysseus: A great sailor, The Captain of a ship who commanded a Red Shirt crew, that claimed he was "No One", who fought against beings he cannot defeat (Nemo against The Empire, Odysseus against Jerkass Gods) motivated by You Can't Go Home Again." I don't think a fictional character from the 19th century being based on a Greek mythology figure counts as an expy in the traditional sense.
• "The novel Memoirs Of A Teenage Amnesiac features a character who closely resembles Ducky from Pretty in Pink, in his flamboyance, his status as the female protagonist's "best friend", and his Everyone Can See It crush on her. Unlike Ducky, he gets together with the protagonist in the end." Don't know about either of the works of fiction listed here, but yet again, similar personalities do not an expy make.
• Some of the Harry Potter example (too long to quote): While some of this seems valid, quite a bit of it doesn't, like this cringe-worthy line: "Harry has been thought of one of Jesus Christ while Lily one of the Virgin Mary."
• The Daystar example (too long): Don't know anything about Daystar, but I don't think basing characters on Biblical figures cousts as expy material.

On the Film subpage:

• Brazil example (too long): Yet again, people seem to think that stock character archetypes counts as an expy.
• "Woody Allen tends to use the same characters over and over in his films. One of the most conspicuous is what has been described as "the sultry, promiscuous, emotionally manipulative struggling [artist]": Dorrie in Stardust Memories (probably the best written), Rain in Husbands And Wives, Nola in Celebrity and Match Point (no, it's not the same character, but two different characters in two separate movies who have the same name and pretty much the same personality), Amanda in Anything Else, Angela in Cassandra's Dream, María Elena in Vicky Cristina Barcelona, Monica in To Rome With Love, and maybe others. " This doesn't really sound like an expy situation to me, more like a "I'm too lazy to come up with original character personalities so I'll just use the same one over and over again" kind of thing. (Yeah, I don't really like Woody Allen.)
• Home Alone example: This just doesn't seem valid to me.
• The VERY long Incredibles example: I'm conflicted on this one. On one hand, a lot of this actually sounds valid, given the "throwback to 70's comic books" nature of the movie, but on the other hand, some of it seems to fall more into Shout-Out & Homage territory. Not sure what to do, if anything, with this one.
• Some of the (second) Disney example: Why is this written on both on the Film & Western Animation pages, with two different write-ups apiece? And some of this is quite bad, e.g.: "All of the villains from The Lion King to The Emperor's New Groove are in one way or another based on Jafar, be they Evil Brits (Scar, Ratcliffe, Clayton), Faux Affably Evil (Scar, Frollo, Hades), tall and dark (Frollo, Hades, Shan Yu), or a Treacherous Advisor (Yzma)." - this is basic villain characterization stuff, people.
• Pixels example: Too little context.
• "Norman Bates of Psycho and David Callaway in Hide and Seek have similar characteristics. They are protagonists of their films, they fight antagonists not shown to us, they found out that they themselves are the antagonists, and they have a Split Personality Takeover afterwards." - this is basic plot stuff; also too vague.
• " A New Hope has its own set of Expies: Han Solo and his personal antagonists Jabba the Hutt and Greedo, who bear a certain resemblance to Sam Spade, Kasper Gutman and Joel Cairo respectively from the 1941 film of The Maltese Falcon, especially since they've come to blows over a Falcon... " Again, too vague. What is meant by "certain resemblance"?
• "Del Preston from Waynes World 2 is Danny from Withnail & I, and is even played by the same actor. This could be considered a Shout-Out. " So, which is it, a Shout-Out or an Expy? Make up your mind, please!
• "The gifted athlete Nanu (who just so happens to come from Africa) from The Worlds Greatest Athlete is an obvious Shot Out to Tarzan." Again, an Expy or a Shout-Out?
• "Terence Hill used to always play the same character: a dreamer, having fun but still Fastest Gun in the West, often helping defenseless people. As in funny movies, like My Name Is Nobody, the Trinity series, but also darker ones like Django, Prepare a Coffin. " An actor playing similar characters ≠ expy.

Just FYI, some of the examples of expy on work pages also are quite bad. I'm not about to look though them all (especially since nobody but me apparently cares about cleaning up the expy examples), but here are some of the worse ones:

• "Expy: Of Haruko, at least physically. She's a lot more downbeat and chill for a Manic Pixie Dream Girl." on Scott Pilgrim characters - this seems like fan reaching.
• "Lucas Lee seems a lot like White Goodman. Both arrogant egotistical muscle-heads with their own crews and franchises who take towards trying to beat the protagonist. They also sound quite alike. Kim Pine sounds monotonous for the most part and in utter contempt for the stupidity of her fellows. Much like Daria." - On Scott Pilgrim movie page - more fan reaching.
• "Expy: Valon to Eddy (smallest guy with weirdest hairdo), Alister to Edd (thin, mid-height guy with a quiet voice) and Rapheal to Ed (biggest guy and, initially, Dumb Muscle)" on YGO Abridged page - seems like just basic character traits, not expy material.
• "Expy: Gretchen is really smart, has reddish-brown hair, and wears glasses. Doesn't she remind you of another Gretchen?" on P&F page - seems like fan-reaching. Recess wasn't too popular, after all.
• "Expy: Sponge Bob is similar to Rocko from Rocko's Modern Life, Patrick is similar to Heffer, Squidward is similar to Mr. Bighead, Gary is similar to Spunky, and Mr. Krabs is similar to Mr. Smitty. Creator Stephen Hillenburg did indeed work on Rocko." - on SBSP page - this is actually an interesting tidbit of information. But do mere similarities make an expy? I don't think so. Maybe this could be moved to Trivia.
• "Expy: Fievel heavily resembles Sniffles from Chuck Jones' early Looney Tunes shorts." on American Tail page - not enough context given to tell if this is valid.
• "Expy: He resembles Neon Genesis Evangelion's Kaworu Nagisa, though not as strongly as Yuki mirrors Rei." - on Haruhi characters page - while Nagato is pretty obviously a rip-off of Rei, I don't think Koizumi is based on Kaworu.
• "Expy: He's basically this generation's Wile E. Coyote, both in design and in bad luck." on Ice Age characters page for Scrat - while this does sound a tad valid, I think this might just simply be a stock character archetype.
• Every example on the K-ON! characters page, especially this terrible one trying to compare Yui to Ren from Ren & Stimpy, of all the characters.

IMHO, either I severely misunderstand what the word "expy" is supposed to mean, or over 60% of the people creating "examples" of it don't understand what it means. Which is really, really bad.

It's the latter, and this is not news. I'm inclined to blame a mixture of the name and Fan Myopia.

As long as an example fails the criteria pinned at the top of this thread, I think you can feel safe to cut it as misuse.

OK, I'll remove the worst examples. Some help would be appreciated, though.

I did a little work on the Video Games subpage, but there's still more crap to sift through. I think this commented out note should be added to all Expy pages to discourage shoehorning:

Anyway, I've added that particular subpage to my watchlist, so if anyone adds any more crap to the page, I'll know.

edited 5th Dec '15 3:49:32 PM by MyTimingIsOff

I've added the note to the subpages, and thanks for helping.

There are many entries of Akame ga Kill!:

• Trivia.Akame Ga Kill: After Tatsumi begins fusing with Tyrant, his right eye becomes red, with his other being his natural green color. Add the Badass Longcoat, and he looks remarkably like Ragna the Bloodedge.

• Akame ga Kill! - Night Raid
  • Akame: In terms of physical appearance, she sure does look a lot like Hikaru Izumi, the main protagonist of the hentai game Seito Kaichou Hikaru. They both share similar hair styles and outfits. Both are sword-women with red eyes and long black hair that fight in a black Mini Dress Of Power with red highlights. In addition, it is worth mentioning that Hikaru OVA counterpart has much more striking resembles to Akame than her game counterpart. Also, it important to know Seito Kaichou Hikaru came out roughly six months before the first chapter of Akame ga Kill and the OVA was released just a little over a month after the first chapters released. So it might be possible that Akame could have been based off Hikaru, or it could be just one hell of a coincidence.
  • Bulat: Of Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, being a Hot-Blooded, Badass mentor for the main character (who shows his idolization by calling him "Aniki") voiced by Katsuyuki Konishi whose death happens in the eight episode of his series and who before dying leaves a legacy for the main character and provokes his development.
  • Chelsea: She seems to be one for Kyoko Sakura. Red hair, Oral Fixation, and an abrasive personality that becomes more sympathetic over time. Chelsea is a veteran assassin, much like how Kyoko is a veteran magic girl. Interestingly enough, both were briefly introduced at the end of an episode and were killed in 6th episode where they made an appearance.

• Akame ga Kill! - The Jaegers:
  • Esdeath: Of Dio Brando. There's already the fact that both characters are acknowledged to be immensely powerful in-universe and often commit acts of cruelty just because it amuses them but the similarities between the two only become more and more apparent as the story goes on. A few other noteworthy similarities include...
    • Both characters grew up without a mother who passed on when they were little and eventually would have their Start of Darkness triggered by the deaths of their fahters. Esdeath inherited many of her Social Darwinist beliefs from her father while Dio wanted to steal Jonathan's fortune because his father was poor. Similar to Dio, Esdeath's ascension into villainy was also of From Nobody to Nightmare nature and it is noted that like Dio, Esdeath was possibly born evil.
    • Esdeath and Dio were both established as villains the minute they pulled a Heel–Face Door-Slam on the protagonists. Like how Dio and Jonathan Joestar were once friendly adoptive brothers until Dio became a vampire and killed George Joestar, Esdeath was once friendly with Najenda until Najenda spoke up against The Empire and Esdeath attempted to cut her arm off.
    • The source of Esdeath and Dio's powers is the result of an ancient artifact. Dio's vampiric powers come from an ancient Meso-American mask that was found in the Joestar manor while Esdeath got her powers through Demon's Extract one of of 48 ancient Teigu.
    • Esdeath and Dio would both rise to Hero Killer status with Dio killing Jonathan in Phantom Blood and Noriaki Kakyoin in Stardust Crusaders. Esdeath on the other hand would reach this status after killing Susanoo at the end of the Bolick Assassination mini-arc.
  • Bols: Of Maes Hughes from Fullmetal Alchemist. Both are devoted family men who are obsessed with their wife and young daughter. Both are soldiers who worked for a corrupted government, despite being out of the nicest characters in their series. If that is not enough to convince you, both were ultimately tricked and killed by a shapeshifter and spent their last moment's thinking about their families.
  • Seryu:
    • Of Future Diary's Yomotsu Hirasaka: They both see themselves as heroes of justice despite harming innocent people, have a Disability Superpower, are killed by the protagonist's pink-haired girlfriend, and blow themselves up.
    • Also of BlazBlue's Tsubaki Yayoi. Both characters had the good intention of upholding the law due to their respect for The Empire. However, as a result of the villain's influence and their refusal to accept the faults of those they follow end up becoming justice obsessed psychopaths that want to eliminate anyone who doesn't pledge Undying Loyalty to the Empire.
  • Run: Of Flynn Scifo from Tales of Vesperia. Both are blonde haired characters sided with the Empire however despite their allegiances they don't like the state the Empire is in and have the motivation of rising through the ranks in hopes that their good actions and kindness will change the corrupt Empire. Both characters also showed respectful admiration towards higher ups in the military with Run admitting that he is fascinated by Esdeath while Flynn saw Commandant Alexei as a role model.
  • Dr Stylish:
    • Of Szayel Aporro Granz from Bleach: Both are campy but brilliant scientist working for the bad guys, worried about their image, both fight with their weird mooks rather than by himself, eat them to became stronger/cure his wounds and go One-Winged Angel in their battle with the good guys. Also the two of them have very different deaths; while Szayel suffer a slow and painful death due Mayuri's drug, Stylish die immediately due to Murasame's poison.
    • Also of Dr. Ferdinand from Part 7 of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Steel Ball Run. Both are flamboyant doctors who answer to higher ups in the government and also possess abilities which allow them to create monsters.

• Akame ga Kill! - The Empire:
  • Syura: Of Uday Hussein, minus the Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas trope.
  • Champ: Of John Wayne Gacy.

edited 10th May '16 6:27:07 PM by randomtroper89

Did a massive culling of Expy.Anime And Manga. Dear God, that page is a mess. Besides all the shoehorning and Zero Context Examples, it was full of bad Example Indentation and Thread Mode. There's probably a lot of crapola that I missed, but it's better than it was at least.

Edit: Did the same in Expy.Comic Books.

edited 21st Jun '16 10:45:05 PM by HighCrate

The pages for A Song of Ice and Fire are a disaster. People keep using expy to mean "historical knockoff" which should logically go under No Celebrities Were Harmed, or some other trope, should it not?

In the case of A Song Of Ice And Fire, you have an unusual instance of a fantasy series that Word of God admits features Unambiguous and Deliberate examples of Historical figures and situations made into a variety of Composite Character and Decomposite Character.

It is written on the EXPY page, a fictional counterpart to a real-life person would not be an expy. When a character strongly resembles a real person, rather than a fictional character, that's No Celebrities Were Harmed. But where does Historical Domain Character fall in that?

Historical figures like Richard III are already heavily fictionalized as it is as are many other characters from the ancient and medieval era. So in this case, when Martin is writing these characters he is also riffing on how they appear in Historical Fiction such as I Claudius which he used to base one of his characters on. So in this case they would qualify as a character from one series who is unambiguously and deliberately based on a character in another, older series. as outlined in the trope page. No Celebrities Were Harmed don't quite apply (since it seems exclusive to contemporary figures rather than historical ones), nor does Roman à Clef.

I would suggest that one put a caveat for Historical Fiction and Historical Domain Character.

edited 29th Jun '16 10:35:07 AM by JulianLapostat

Or you could just launch a new trope and stop cluttering up this one with bad examples. That's what the trope launch pad is for. Call it "No Historical Figures Were Harmed" or "Historical Expy" or whatever title darn well pleases you.

This is a trope that has been pretty badly misused and creating exceptions for anything is a bad idea, especially when you could just get a new trope off the ground. "Based on a historical character" is certainly tropeable, and is perfectly worthy of having its own page. It just shouldn't be the expy page.

The thing is there aren't a great number of examples where Historical Expy trope would apply. In most cases authors do use Historical Domain Character or Alternate Universe or what have you to perfectly describe what they are discussing. ASOIAF is unusual and there aren't many other examples which does what it does. I suppose Balzac basing Vautrin on Verloc, or Victor Hugo basing both Valjean and Javert on Verloc, would count, but that is No Celebrities Were Harmed since Verloc were their rough contemporaries.

It would essentially amount to making a new page for a handful of works. It wouldn't cause Trope Decay when there are only a few works, albeit many examples in a single work, Especially when it has Word of God, Deliberate and/or Umambiguous examples.

Gihren Zabi of Mobile Suit Gundam is explicitly based on Hitler (to the point of the series actually addressing the similarities in-universe). He's far from the only Hitler clone out there, either. Just look at the A Nazi by Any Other Name page and you'll find that just as there are plenty of knockoff Nazi Parties, so too are there plenty of knockoff Hitlers, Goebbels', Goerings, etc. Timeline-191 alone has knockoffs of Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, and Eichmann, among others, and that's just on the villainous side.

And these are just Hitler knockoffs. How many gangsters are modeled on Al Capone? How many cases of Adipose Rex owe something to the public perception of Henry VIII? Etc, etc

Trust me, you do a trope write-up you won't be short of examples.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:23:48 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Why should I make a trope just for Hitler when A Nazi By Another Name already exists?

The trope wouldn't just be for Hitler expies, it would be for any historical character, including Hitler, with a possible link over to A Nazi by Any Other Name as a related trope.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:23:31 AM by PhiSat

Because that's the Nazi Party, not the leadership. And again, how many gangsters are modeled on Capone? How many fat kings on Henry VIII? How many pirates on Blackbeard? There's plenty of historical knockoffs if you care to look.

If you don't care to look, that's your decision, but you don't get to put the examples you're unwilling to launch a trope for on this trope.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:25:58 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

None of this answers my original question and point, about Historical Domain Character counting as a "separate series". As it is most of the Useful Notes pages, have been cleaned up to focus on their fictional depictions and characteristics anyway. So there is a pre-existing gray area to access. There's Stupid Jetpack Hitler, Jeanne Darchetype, The Napoleon and others to refer to a particular set of stereotypes around certain characters but this doesn't apply to this situation. Adolf Hitler in particular has too many tropes associated with him already.

I don't see a point in creating a new trope when the argument seems to be whether one work, ASOIAF fitting this trope better than it fits others. It makes zero sense to create a new page just for ASOIAF because the particular use of fictional counterparts in a fantasy series is fairly unique.

Stupid Jetpack H Itler is about giving the actual Nazis superscience. It has nothing to do with characters modeled on Hitler, which you'd know if you read the page. The Napoleon is about angry short people. It has nothing to do with the actual Napoleon Bonaparte, which again, you'd know if you read the page. Jeanne Darchetype is the only one of those that deals with someone being modeled on a historical character and that's a specific character rather than historical personages in general. In short, a subtrope of which "No Historical Figures Were Harmed" (or whatever you want to call it) would be supertrope to.

There are plenty of characters in fiction who are modeled on historical people. That's tropeable. But it's not this trope.

Oh and quit special pleading for ASOIAF. It's not that unique. Hell, it's not unique at all. I mean seriously, using historically based characters in a fantasy series? Harry Turtledove alone has done it two or three times over.

edited 29th Jun '16 11:46:45 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Harry Turtledove writes Alternate History on real figures, he doesn't make versions of historical figures in a fantasy setting.

The entire fantasy genre is full of mashups of historical events and people.

Would you like to play again?

No kidding. Turtledove alone has done it three times in enormous detail, and that's not getting into all the times that someone lifts just a single character.

edited 29th Jun '16 12:07:28 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I guess I can start this trope...

Go for it. It'll benefit this clean-up by having a place to put those historical comparisons and it'll give a supertrope to Jeanne Darchetype and its fellows.

edited 29th Jun '16 12:14:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar