Small, vicious
Ramming a sword through some evil bastard's guts and watching him bleed to death, followed by making some kind of corny pun - A-OK!
Beating an evil bastard up until he gives you information that could save thousands if not millions of lives - totally unforgivable and morally reprehensible under any circumstance!
I swear I don't get you guys sometimes.
"Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight, but Roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right." - Hillaire Belloc, The Pacifist Hide / Show Replies
Seconded; like I mentioned before earlier there's still a really heinous disconnect; the Laconic and the main trope page butt heads so severely it's not even funny.
OHGODTHEPICTUREITCANNOTBEUNSEEN! XD
Serious props to the guy who found that picture, though I don't know, and don't know if I WANT to know, where you found it.
Hide / Show Replies
I am sorry, but some degree of sanity is required here, because there seems to be a VERY considerable double standard going on.
On one hand, the trope entry practically hammer in that the character described be a complete and utter monster who is almost by definition only *percieved* as good by the audience or the author. To quote from above...
"The portrayal may not be something any sane reader or viewer thinks is good BUT it's when the writer portrays a torturer as heroic and yet can't evoke Black And Gray Morality."
And yet.... we have examples like Jack Bauer and Batman on the list? I am sorry, but were we watching the same episodes of 24? Because more than once is it made *DAMN* clear - which is pretty shocking in and of itself considering how ludicrously biased the show is- that what Bauer does is by no means pretty or on morally sound ground. Perhaps on *more* morally sound ground than the alternatives, but by no means free and untainted. Which is practically THE DEFINITION of Black And Gray Morality.
And Batman..... even The Dark Knight practically spells out that the Bat is- while far more indisputably heroic than Bauer- still very much a Well Intentioned Extremist whose main redeeming features are the circumstances in which he operates, that even he has standards, and his intentions. And even then (and this is practically *THE.* *ENTIRE.* *POINT.* *OF.* the scene with Lucius Fox at the end regarding the use of the sonar-like cellphone technology), he does very, very morally dubious things.
In short, there is a terminal contradiction here between the article's definition and its' examples. Which means that we basically have three choices:
1. Throw at least large segments of the definition out the window in order to make it more neutral and allow for Well Intention Extremists and shades of Gray rather than being only for Card Carrying Villains.
2. Scrap the aforementioned examples and ones like them and keep them primarily for Designated Heroes only.
3. Do two but make another page for more ambiguous examples.
Because seriously, does this article really do anything any justice to either those specified examples and the treatment of them by their writers or- and FAR more importantly- to this website as a whole?
Edited by Turtler Hide / Show Replies
I have considered doing an edit myself, but considering that I would go for option number one, and it would include practically at least rearranging the majority of the description, I believed it would be best to ask for opinions on the matter before I do that.
Considering that the Laconic summary of this trope has stood for a while as "Real heroes torture! Torture is good! Celebrate torture HERE" for a while now... I don't know. Go for it.
sick of it all
I'm wanting to remove the Worldof Warcraft examples and replace them with a more on topic one. As a player of the game, all of the ones mentioned except for maybe Vishas are NP Cs and not seen as heroic by *any* faction (as a matter of fact, they're usually what you are fighting against) BUT there are certain quests that can make you as the player an Exalted Torturer (in fact, much of the Death Knight starting area is this).
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My Namesakes
Does The Punisher count? He is listed as an example under Torture Technician. Speaking of which, can this trope overlap with Torture Technician?
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass." Hide / Show Replies
Yes and yes. Though what differs it from Torture Technician is that not all Torture Technicians are necessarily respected by any of the audience, whereas the very definition of an Exalted Torturer is that he has at least some of a fanbase and/or the author s/h/itself liking and applauding and celebrating his behavior.
For example someone who uses torture as a tactic, is very scarily good at it, etc... but who the writer wants you to think is at the very least flawed is a Torture Technician. If the writer and/or more than the amount of fans you can count on both hands view the Torture Technician as a hero of any sort other than an Anti-Hero/defend his tactics, you have an Exalted Torturer.
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So the Exalted Torturer is basically a "heroic" Torture Technician?
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
I'm requesting this trope not be cut because the "heroic" and/or "fandom" elements added to a Torture Technician make it a trope of its own, even if it isn't the most common of tropes. It's much like Tsundere and the French Jerk and Jerk with a Heart of Gold all being separate tropes, despite sharing many of the same qualities and definitions.
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Also, this trope *did* make it through YKTTW discussion, even if said discussion was small.
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The point about the audiences is irrelevant. If somebody portrays something as heroic or as evil then the audience can agree or disagree. That happens in all cases. There is nothing special about writers trying to convince audiences and trying to implement their portrayals effectively.
When it comes to the heroic portrayal, the explanation on Torture Technician makes the differences clearer. Those guys tend to be tall creepy thin guys making 1984 references and with the tendency to go into Hannibal Lecture mode. Trying to make them heroic affects many other aspects of the portrayal. This is the important point.
Rework some of the page.
—- Your friendly neighbourhood scissor master.
Edited by SomeSortOfTroper
If everyone a character tortures turns out to be a Complete Monster who had it coming anyway and said character also avoids harming innocents and makes sure that the guy he's torturing is truely a Complete Monster, does he still count as this trope?
Edited by Kersey475 "Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
It depends on the portrayal. If the portrayal is of the torturer being evil or at the very least conflicted, he would fall under Evil Civil War or Pay Evil unto Evil or Black-and-Gray Morality or a similar trope.
If, on the other hand, he is portrayed as being *good* or heroic while doing this, he's the Exalted Torturer.
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How exactly do you portray a torturer as "good"?
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
See the examples. Hanzo the Razor. Rapeman. Jack Bauer in 24. Elliot Stabler in Law And Order SVU. The fuckhead who wrote Sonichu's self-insert. The portrayal may not be something any sane reader or viewer thinks is good BUT it's when the writer portrays a torturer as heroic and yet can't evoke Black-and-Gray Morality.
Laconic version: An Exalted Torturer is the combination of the Designated Hero with elements of the Torture Technician, wrapped up in a The Hero Knight in Shining Armor package, and stuck on the "white" side of Black-and-White Morality.
- moves this to page*
So a character who tortures innocents can't be this trope? And is there be a difference between a "heroic" Torture Technician and this trope or are they both the exact same thing?
Just to be safe, you may want to the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions and add a clear difference between the Exalted Torturer and Torture Technician.
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
A character who tortures innocents CAN DEFINITELY BE this trope! If the torturing of innocents is played for being heroic (e.g. the characters he hurts really could be innocent, if it's all given a Hand Wave due to war, etcetera). And a "heroic" Torture Technician is an Exalted Torturer, because "being the hero" is what moves a torturer to this trope.
Edited by AGroupie ?
Whoa, whoa ,whoa, I thought "good" meant not harming innocents. I also just looked at the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions and does this mean that someone who is too skilled in torture can't be this trope. Sorry, but this trope is confusing me alot.
BTW, could you add The Punisher to this page (if he counts) with an explanation to why he is an Exalted Torturer?
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
By "good" it means someone who is portrayed with the attributes and alignment of The Hero while being (in regard to his actual actions) the exact opposite. Similar to the Path of Inspiration: a religion made to look wonderful and given a lot of good publicity when it is evil to the core and its actions are harmful.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
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It does, but is the difference between a Exalted Torturer and a Torture Technician similiar to the difference between a Boisterous Bruiser and a Blood Knight?
I am also making a story idea and I would like to know if the protagonist would count as a Exalted Torturer or a Torture Technician. Here's his personality:
- He's a Chaotic Neutral Deadpan Snarker Blood Knight Celibate Hero Kuudere Type IV Anti-Hero mercenary who's a former member of his country's Badass Crew.
- He has a "leave me alone and stay out of my way" attitude regarding other people, but is a Friend to All Children (and especially adores infants) who would Never Hurt an Innocent (specifically Wouldn't Hurt a Child and Would Not Shoot a Civilian).
- As for other personality traits, he is also Trigger-Happy, a Big Eater, a subconcious Death Seeker, a Hollywood Atheist, and does not abide by Thou Shalt Not Kill.
- He is also The Unfettered ("Laws are only for those too weak to oppose those enforcing it") and has an aversion to being captured and put in a cage, as a result of this he Would Not Shoot a Good Guy, but he will brutally (but nonlethally) disarm honest-but-misinformed law enforcers that try to arrest him.
- He is sadistic but has a Pay Evil unto Evil viewpoint, being fond of using the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique on especially despicable Asshole Victims (while using Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (Russian Roulette, dangling from a building, etc.) on Mooks). He also frequently lovingly explains what actions he's going to take and what effect those actions will have on the body of the Complete Monster he's torturing.
He would be a Torture Technician who was incredibly well-developed as a character (congratulations! :) ), and that's answered by your first bullet point. Chaotic Neutral and Anti-Hero. To be an Exalted Torturer he would have to be being portrayed convincingly as The Hero / at the very least a Designated Hero or Lawful Good or at the very least Lawful Neutral.
In short, you're not trying to sell him as The Hero and Lawful Good while at least a portion of the audience that isn't screaming for blood is yelling "WHAT THE FUCK HOW IS THIS THEHERO / LAWFULGOOD."
Edited by AGroupie ?
Can a Chaotic Good character be an Exalted Torturer? After all Jack Bauer is catergorized as Chaotic Good.
BTW, her are some characters you may want to consider for this trope:
- The Punisher is a big fan of the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique, but he can take it to Torture Technician levels if one of his Berserk Buttons is pressed.
- Also from {{24}}, the CTU employs a Torture Technician named Johnson. Johnson, however, just seems to treat it like a job and appears to be less willing than Jack to torture suspects. This would most likely place him in Lawful Neutral.
If Jack Bauer is Chaotic Good, then there are definitely Chaotiv Good Exalted Torturers. No torturer in recent memory is more exalted than Jack Bauer in early seasons of 24.
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney
Indeed. Also, he's one of the definitions of the trope: the writers and fans both want people to see him as Chaotic Good, when his actions are more in line with Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil.
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So part of the definition of this trope is that Jack Bauer is evil? Obviously a large part of the 24 fanbase would disagree there, and (as you noted) the writers. He even has an entry on the Chaotic Good page... shouldn't the Rule of cautious editing judgement apply here?
No, you misunderstand. The very trope is that the writer and the fanbase views a character such as Jack Bauer as some form of "good" when his actions are more in line with "evil." Did you read the page?
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That's what I thought you meant - sorry if I was being vague before. My point is that the writers and fanbase wouldn't agree with you that the actions of Jack Bauer (as the example here) are more in line with evil, and having this as part of the definition makes it kinda subjective. Basically, that part of the definition contradicts the fans, writers, and presumably a fair portion of the wiki, judging by the examples on other pages involving Jack Bauer. I'm not sure to what degree that goes for the other characters.
Edited by Katova
Sorry to resurrect the topic, but, well, the opening paragraphs seem to be overplaying the Exalted Torturer — the few heroes ("designated" or otherwise) I've seen who use torture on their enemies aren't sadists, above-the-law, and certainly not in it just for causing pain, as the description emphasizes. The best example I can think of is Dirty Harry, whose use of torture was in a very desperate scenario on someone who had plainly shown himself to be a ruthless murderer — it keeps stressing the character's unambiguous evil and monstrosity, on a list where every character I'm familiar with is far from it. (I can't speak for Jack Bauer, since oddly enough, I've never seen an episode of 24.)
I think this might be a good way to get closer to what I'm getting at: What, if anything, is keeping Batman off this list?
Edited by Caswin
Nothing is keeping Batman off this list, except that comics fans aren't apparently heavy contributors to the page. *pushes you to edit*
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Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Not Tropeworthy
, started by randomtroper89 on Apr 25th 2018 at 5:20:32 AM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman