Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yeah, I'd say cut Phantom.

And yeah, Biggles, we ruledsolidly to cut Gant and we're wondering how the heck he ever got on the list

Honestly if anyone from Dual Destinies qualifies, I'd say Ted Tonate from the first case could qualify. He detonated a bomb which destroyed a whole courtroom which could have been a massive slaughter of human life, killed one person and severly injured another. He's virtually unrepentant throught the case and toys with detonating another bomb. Since no other villain has been a terrorist before, I'd say he meets the heinous standard.

Phantom is a no, from what I heard of him. I still haven't finished the game yet though.

Also, why is Bansai Ichiyanagi still on the page? Didn't we cut him for failing the heinous standard to Sota?

Edit: Actually, I haven't played the game that far so I don't know if he has a Freudian Excuse, but Phantom actually looks like a decent qualifier judging from the entry, but if he truly is Made of Evil, then he can't qualify. I'm on the fence about Phantom now. He COULD very well qualify, but it's hard to say. Maybe someone who beat the game can tell us more?

edited 1st Nov '13 5:16:23 PM by Klavice

Just a thing: If you ever run into a situation where "why is so and so on the page when we voted to cut," by all means, cut it. Go to the Edit thread if it's locked and cite the page or just snip it otherwise. We're all good with it

How about Dodo from the Mixim, he's a Monster Clown that wants to eat everything, taking joy in eating entire populations of planets, even women and children, even his own allies if he doesn't like him, as he does to Heigar, when the latter was weakened. When he first meets his future allies, Arachne and Nemesis, he fully intends to murder them as well, Pandora, his ally was the only thing keeping him from eating them. He also kills the cute mascot of the group, Tongari, which is a major Tear Jerker

edited 1st Nov '13 7:21:19 PM by brownmon

sounds like he might count, but please take time, explain the series and characters, why the things he does are bad and how he stacks up to other villains.

Basically Mixim involves three normal highschool students who turn out to be prince candidates for the planet Polarius. They are to protect the twelve princesses of the Zodiac from the evil organization called Big Bang Zero. Which Dodo is a member, not only that, he's one of the four elites, the Shadow Matter, and unlike most of the villains, he never has a redeeming trait. Even Valcan, a serial killer who killed two of the zodiac princesses turns out to be a friend for one of the quirky miniboss members. Also, while Big Bang Zero is in the business of destroying planets associated with Polarius for their empire, Dodo is the only one that's completely kill happy about the whole deal.

edited 1st Nov '13 7:34:58 PM by brownmon

"- Being Affably Evil isn't usually a defence [sic]"

Yes, it is. While I have to admit that it can be very hard to tell which is which, an Affably Evil character is genuinely nice in addition to being evil (unlike a Faux Affably Evil one who fakes niceness), so there can be no such thing as an Affably Evil Complete Monster.

Let me see if I understand it:

Dodo is part of a group of villains. Of them, he's the only pure evil one, and he eats entire worlds? A check on the tropes page brings me to a link to a manga page that shows this onscreen.

So he has no redeeming qualities, he has moral agency and he slaughters...billions? And his comrades don't do actions to overshadow him?

Keep him if this is all true.

Now, then as promised, my writeups...

to add to the Forgotten Realms on tabletop games

• Rivalen Tanthul, one of the 12 Princes of Shade, the remnant of the empire of Netheril. Rivalen is the most powerful of his brothers and while his father and siblings are certainly ruthless, they genuinely love one another. Rivalen is the Nightseer, or high priest of the Dark Goddess Shar and murdered his own mother to instill his family with the loss needed to turn them to Shar's worship. Rivalen mentally tortures his younger brother Brennus with the vision of the murder and even mocks his father, High Prince Telamont, about loving Rivalen too much to stop his mad plans. In the vision, Rivalen's dying mother simply asked Rivalen to hold her hand so she wouldn't be alone, to which Rivalen calmly denied her request to savor her suffering. Rivalen engineers massive casualties and Shade's takeover of the lands of Sembia, savoring the bitterness and pain of those he betrays. A century after Sembia's takeover, Rivalen attempts to finish Shar's manifestation, revealing his ultimate goal: to die and take all that exists in Toril with him. Defined by his cruel nihilism and utter lack of regard for any living being, Rivalen sought deaths on scales that not even Gods such as Cyric would attempt.

• Horrabin of The Anubis Gates is a servant of the Master and a chillingly evil Monster Clown who rules over the beggars and outcasts of London. Horrabin disfigures them so they'll bring in extra revenue from the begging. Those he mutilates too much, his 'mistakes,' he locks in his sewer lair. Including his own father who he routinely torments and threatens to visit worse cruelties on. Horrabin uses his network to murder those who cross him or that he sees as a potential problem. Throughout the whole novel, Horrabin is a sadist and a fiend who is evil on a level none of his compatriots can match.

edited 1st Nov '13 8:35:13 PM by Lightysnake

Write-ups look good. Does anybody else have any commentary on my write-ups for Lord Ruthven, Max, and Fouchon? I'll try and redo the Bleach ones this week, but in the meantime I'd like to get those ones up.

Lord Ruthven, Max, and Fouchon look good Ambar

Going back to the Animated DC and Marvel DT Vs for a moment, the YMMV section for Justice League Doom list both Vandal Savage and Mirror Master as Complete Monsters, I can see a case to be made for Savage, he seems to want to destroy modern society in his quest for power, but I don't think Mirror Master counts, he doesn't seem heinous enough, especially in comparison to Savage.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/JusticeLeagueDoom

Also does anyone agree with the idea I put forward to cut the examples from Hulk Vs.?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/HulkVs

edited 2nd Nov '13 12:33:19 AM by TheOverlord

Mirror Master pales in comparison, and we should cut the Hulk Vs. Examples, the Professor is a standard mad scientist, and the only moment that counts as a kick the dog, is sabertooth's comments about dropping the hulk on an orphanage, nothing really bad happens onscreen to justify their inclusions. Omega Red, is just a standard villain trying to kill wolverine.

EDIT: Did we ever come to a consensus about Professor Zoom from Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox? I can find the discussion, but not the conclusion.

edited 2nd Nov '13 12:15:11 AM by DrPsyche

Justice League Doom: Keep Vandal Savage, cut Mirror Master.

Hulk Vs: Cut everyone

Justice League The Flashpoint Paradox: The discussion may have petered out(what discussion doesn't peter out here)but there were more votes to keep Professer Zoom.

Phantom: Does he have moral agency? If so, seems like a keeper. As for Gant, he was on the game's YMMV page before Ace Attorney got its own CM page. Also, if we could finish Ace Attorney, When They Cry, and Artix, and lock this weekend, that'd be great. At the very least today I'll go through Star Wars, Disney, and Western Animation today and make sure the YMMV match the CM. For Tabletop Games, shall we give Dungeons And Dragons its own subpage, or just its own folder?

EDIT: Lighty, I added the current entry for Sascha Vykos to Vampire: The Masquerade. You know what to do when you make the rewrite

edited 2nd Nov '13 2:49:59 AM by ACW

Okay, regarding Zoom, I brought him up here and stated why I was against.

Forenperser voted for

Lightysnake voted for

32_Footsteps voted against

Tommy Fresh was on the fence

Hodor was on the fence

If I missed or misrepresented anyone, please PM me.

Okay, my previous film writeups have been added, as well as Karl from Goosebumps "Chillogy". If Goosebumps does end up with enough examples to justify a subpage, both literature and television characters should be included. Monster.Star Wars and Monster.Harry Potter have similar soft splits. I also added Lightysnake's Xenia writeup to Goldeneye's YMMV page. I'll submit Taha to the edit request thread.

Re: Diana: In the two V miniseries I think she undoubtedly qualifies. Given the drop in quality of the weekly series I'm not inclined to watch it, but reading reviews and synopses it seems that despite some Villain Decay Diana is never portrayed as anything other than a power-hungry, people-eating sadist. Until someone can confirm any redeeming traits shown there I'd be fine with adding her.

• Diana from the original V is a remorseless commander of the Visitor invasion forces. During the first occupation she planned the entire operation and was the real powerholder in the fleet. She engineered the genocide of the human race and invented both the process of harvesting humans for food and the mind-raping "conversion procedure". She oversees these tortures herself simply because she enjoys them, during which the victim is haunted with vivid nightmares until they've either been brainwashed into obedience or rendered a vegetable. She performs lethal experiments on captured prisoners, kills her own superiors to take their place, and orders Brian to implant Robin with his alien fetus as an experiment, leaving her a traumatized wreck. As the Visitor fleet is leaving, she goes ahead with trying to irradiate the Earth with an atomic bomb even after they've already lost and despite John's disgust with her pettiness. After being captured for war crimes, she escapes back to the fleet and launches a second, much more destructive invasion of Earth.

Write-up for John Milton:

• John Milton aka Satan in The Devil's Advocate. This portrayal of the Devil runs an Occult Law Firm staffed by his demons and humans he corrupted, using the legal system to get violent criminals off the hook and spread corruption everywhere in the world, hoping that the Earth will become such a perversion that it will hurt Heaven and spite God. Having to work around the free will of humans, he subtly manipulates them to give in to evil instead. He rapes multiple women over the years so he can find offspring good enough to mate with each other and further produce The Antichrist. He drives Kevin's wife Mary Ann to madness and suicide, and rapes her for half a day to leave her with scratch and bite marks all over her body. He brutally kills everyone who tries to expose his crimes. When Kevin destroys his plan by killing himself, he kills his daughter in his moment of rage and turns her into a withered husk.

edited 4th Nov '13 12:45:56 AM by Morgenthaler

Hmmm...

Hey all! It's been a long time.

Anyway, I have a suggestion for Monster.Redwall: Mokkan of the Marlfox brood.

Just in summary, he's Mossflower's ultimate backstabber, he abandoned all of his forces, left most of his siblings at the Abbey to die, and pushed his last sister off a cliff into a lake full of pike.

While I can't give more detail than that right off (been a while since I read Marlfox), those are the major points.

I wouldn't mind trying my hand at rewrite for Vanadal Savage from Justice League Doom:

• Vandal Savage from Justice League Doom, is a conqueror with genocidal plans for the planet. He manages to steal the protocols Batman designed to defeat the Justice League in case one or more members of the Justice League turn evil. Savage then uses these protocols to take out the Justice League, making them more lethal and sadistic in the process. After his Legion of Doom seemingly triumphs over the Justice League, Vandal Savage informs them he plans to conquer the world by using a missile that will cause a solar flare that will kill half the world's population and render the other half so weak and helpless that will naturally accept his leadership.

edited 2nd Nov '13 1:54:24 PM by TheOverlord

For Mokkan...I'm not sure he breaches the heinous standard. I mean, he kills Lantur, yes, but she murdered their mother herself and was nothing resembling an angel.

Also, Mokkan doesn't really...do much that's evil when he becomes king. Frankly, he's quite egalitarian in that he tells his soldiers if they slack off, they'll be made into slaves, but if slaves do well, he'll promote them to soldiers. I mean, for some reason this is given as a sign of his insanity, but it seems remarkably less evil than the psychos on the list and how they treat their soldier and slaves.

Btw, someone posted this on YMMV.Twelve Years A Slave

• Complete Monster: Edwin Epps essentially invokes this, showing in no uncertain terms the absolute worst of what slave owners are capable of. He gets off on whipping his slaves repeatedly on practically a whim, making them get up dance for his own sadistic amusement, and repeatedly raping a teenage slave, also making no secret about the latter and reveling in how Patsy is his sex-toy. This is all to say nothing for his violent episodes. He never shows any regret over his actions and doesn't believe them at all wrong, since in his own words "a man does what he wants with his property".

Let me note this would be seen as nasty behavior even by the standards of the time. this entry actually glosses over some of Epps' nastiness: He wakes the slaves in the middle of the night to dance in a parody of a gentleman's ball for his and his wife's amusement. He often gets dangerously and deliriously drunk, and when he's like this or pissed off, nobody is really safe from him. As for his wife...I don't recall any affection or Pet the Dog but quite the opposite. His wife is sickened about him keeping Patsy as a Sex Slave and she's a living Berserk Button for Epps. Any slave who picks less than 200 pounds of cotton in one day gets lashed, as well. As far as his wife goes, she hates how Epps is obsessed with Patsey but Epps says he'd sooner get rid of his wife than Patsey. And no, he never once has a moment that' redeeming towards the poor girl. He rapes her and holds her up as his 'Queen Of the Field' for her skill at picking cotton but later in the film he has her stripped naked and publicly whipped.

The worst part? He forces the film's hero, Solomon, to do the whipping by holding a gun to his head and keep lashing until he sees pink mist rising with every strike. Enraged that Solomon isn't doing it right, Epps grabs the whip and lays into Patsey himself.

The man belongs on this list.

edited 2nd Nov '13 11:32:09 AM by Lightysnake

I guess I should waited until I wasn't busy to bring up Doc Ock...

Anyways, as for my opinion on Ultimate Ock (the cartoon version), I guess my main problem with Ock is there's nothing he has done that Goblin has done but worse. For Season One, he's either working for Norman, or he's trying to get revenge on Norman for the way Norman's treated him. He is, however, more independent in Season Two.

To me, his biggest dick move was forcing Connors to become the Lizard again and forcing Lizzie to part of the Sinister Six. Then again, Goblin had no problem siccing the Venom symbiote on his son's best friend after son rejected the symbiote, so yeah.

But if anybody insists, I could drudge up everything Ock has done. Will take a while though. Also, season two's not over yet.

And on an unrelated note, found these under the YMMV tab for:

Spider Man Unlimited: The High Evolutionary. For all his claims of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, it's fairly clear that he has pretty much no respect for life in any form. He sees humans as lower than dirt, and it becomes clear as the show goes on that his 'beloved' Beastials aren't any safer from him.

Sir Ram isn't much better. Venom and Carnage . Their plan is to unleash symbiotes upon Counter-Earth and make symbiotes dominant species and their plan would result in extermination of lots of humans and Beastials alike. Also they kidnap innocent people and turn them into their slaves. Carnage is willing to hurt innocent people to make Spider-Man bring Venom back and Venom is willing to destroy Spider-Man, even after Spidey saved Eddie's life by bringing back the symbiote. And unlike most Venom and Carnage versions, where Eddie and Cassidy are in control of their actions, symbiotes took full control of Eddie And Cassidy.

And the 90s Spider-Man cartoon:

Herbert Landon. In his first appearance (the X-Men crossover), he had his old friend and colleague Henry Mc Coy/the Beast kidnapped so he could dunk him in the chemical bath he was planning to use for mutant genocide to see if it worked. His later schemes working for the Kingpin involved turning people into cyborgs against their will and generally being a dick.

Carnage, who was as Axe Crazy as the show would let him be.

They weren't listed on the main Complete Monster page, so I have no clue if they've been discussed already or not. Hopefully, I'm not the only one who's seen Spider Man Unlimited.

But, I agree to Sir Ram; High Evolutionary is a bit iffy since he has a couple semi Pet the Dog moments regarding his granddaughter; and Carnage went nuts when Venom was kidnapped so no clue on them.

I checked Phantom/Fake Bobby Fulbright's page on the Characters page and it turns out he has moral agency after all. I think with that said he's a keeper, but his entry needs cleanup.

Any opinions on Ted Tonate? I would think a terrorist with no remorse who sells bombs on the black market would be a qualifier in Ace Attorney.

Looks like Hades atm, is a keeper. I'm going to try and make a new rewrite over the next few days.

Well, I'd be fine with both of those two counting there

Alphas

• Complete Monster: Stanton Parrish himself engineered a massacre of the moderate members of Red Flag. If not before "The Devil Will Drag You Under", Parrish certainly earned it after he considers for a moment, gives Dani some kind words, and decides NOT to Pet the Dog, instead carrying on with his plan to detonate the bombs, even though she's standing next to them. He sincerely expresses regret for it, though, and wishes he could undo it in "If Memory Serves". It's not enough to convince him to stop, however.

If he expresses regret, he doesn't count.

@18583: Listing every Doc Ock appearance for Ultimate would help us determine if he's a candidate or not. So far I'm thinking Osborne sounds worse. Don't know about the Spider-Man Unlimited examples, but it's funny you should mention Carnage and Herbert Landon from the 1994 series, I was just about to propose them...

Who are Cletus Kassady and Herbert Landon and what have they done?

Cletus Kassady is an Ax-Crazy psychopath who is wanted by the police for various undisclosed—but said to be horrible—crimes. By the time we see him he’s holed up in his house by the police, chucking grenades at them to keep them away. When Spider-Man comes to arrest him Kassady reveals he has a bomb strapped to his chest which will kill himself and everyone in a 200 meter radius. Once apprehended by Spider-Man and placed in an asylum, Baron Mordo, The Dragon to the Dimension Lord Dormammu, eventually approaches him, offering him the offspring of the Venom symbiote if he swears to serve Dormammu and help summon him to this world. Kassady agrees and becomes Carnage. First stealing an inter-dimensional probe, Kassady then needs to collect an equal amount of lifeforce from people in our world in order to swap for Dormammu’s in his world. Carnage goes on a soul sucking spree, eventually stealing enough from innocent people to allow Dormammu’s summoning and start the apocalypse. When Dormammu was defeated and he, as well as Carnage, were sucked back into his realm, Carnage tried to drag Eddie’s Love Interest, Dr. Ashley Kafka, with him, only to fail due to Eddie sacrificing himself instead.

Herbert Landon is the Evil Former Friend of Hank McCoy, the second Dragon to the Kingpin, and a fanatic Mad Scientist against mutants. Lying to the public that he was trying to create a cure for mutancy, in reality Landon worked on a formula that destroyed mutant cells, killing the mutant in the process. His end goal was to use this formula to kill every mutant on the planet. Following the foiling of his plot and subsequent mutation, Landon continued to work for the Kingpin, committing crimes such as forcibly transforming Alistair Smythe into a humanoid-cybernetic slave and used Felicia Hardy as a guinea pig for his Super-Soldier Super Serum.

Do they have any sympathetic or redeeming qualities?

Kasady’s a lunatic who enjoys killing people before getting the symbiote and he continues to enjoy killing people after becoming Carnage. While he briefly acts Faux Affably Evil to his “dad” Venom, in reality he’s contemptuous of Eddie’s sentimentality and standards, and both he and Eddie are willing to fight and kill each other on the flimsiest of pretexts. He also doesn’t hold any loyalty to Dormammu either. When Baron Mordo interrupts Venom and Carnage’s fighting to remind them they gave their words to serve Mordo, Venom stops fighting and goes back to helping because he gave his word. Carnage, on the other hand, says he doesn’t give a damn about keeping his word, he’s only helping Dormammu because he wants to see the horrors he’s going to unleash on the world. He displays no remorse for any of his actions, is given no Freudian Excuse, is incredibly sadistic and rampantly homicidal.

Landon, meanwhile, has no interest in curing mutants, merely murdering all of them, and he has no reservations about testing out the formula which would give him the means to do so on a former friend. He also has no real loyalty to the Kingpin, he just uses him for his own ends. He lies by telling Fisk he’ll create an army of mutants for him, while really planning to commit genocide. There’s nothing redeemable or well-intentioned about him either, he’s just a fanatic and a racist.

Are their crimes heinous by the standards of the series?

Yep. Most other characters attempt generic supervillainy, motivated by greed or power, usually their crimes are too small-time or they get too many redeeming qualities or sympathetic moments. With these two, however, they go for omnicide and genocide respectively, which is surprising given the heavy amount of censorship the show was subjected to.

Thoughts?

edited 2nd Nov '13 12:47:15 PM by OccasionalExister