Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Riddler
Yes to the original Riddler
Deadshot. This story seems like it was adapted from a really good Secret Six arc in the comics, that's where the Get Out Of Hell Card came from at least.
Alright, here's Part 1 of the last of my hiatus-time backlog!
What's the work?
Enola Holmes is a duology of films adapted from a YA novel series, about the adventures of aspiring detective Enola Holmes, twenty years younger than her elder brothers, Mycroft and Sherlock. It's a premise that admittedly sounds like a bad fanfic from LiveJournal, but it's actually fascinatingly complex and features a lot of educational material about British history - the first film for instance takes place against the backdrop of the passage of the Reform Act of 1884, which greatly expanded the right to vote and hold office in the UK. It's also a family story, though, and family is what we'll begin with...
Who is Eudoria Holmes? What has she done?
The woman who raised a family of geniuses, Eudoria is the mother of Mycroft, Sherlock, and Enola; she's also played by Helena Bonham Carter turning up the ham as only Helena Bonham Carter can. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Left in the family country house with Enola after her husband died and her sons moved out, Eudoria raised her daughter herself, schooling her in everything from martial arts to feminist theory to writing secret codes. And then one day - Enola's birthday, as it happens - she just disappeared. Enola escapes to London to find her (and to avoid being shipped off to an annoying "how to be a Proper Victorian Lady" school by Mycroft), and eventually, after deciphering numerous elaborate clues and codes, discovers that her mother is an activist for women's voting right - a suffragette, and a radical one too, as Enola discovers that her mother is renting a warehouse full of heavy-duty explosives. Enola is, naturally, extremely pro-suffrage herself, but is still horrified that her mother is evidently willing to kill to get it... though the explosives do come in handy when she gets cornered by a mysterious hit man.
Eudoria makes a brief appearance in the second movie as well. She's still fighting for her cause, naturally, but she takes some time off after Sherlock informs her that Enola has been framed for murder by a seriously corrupt police superintendent, Mr. Grail. Eudoria takes a band of her fellow suffragettes to a women's prison where her daughter is being held, and they blow the walls the fuck open and escape in a coach, leaving Grail covered in mud after a ridiculous chase and Enola proper of her mom than ever.
Mitigating issues?
Eudoria is IMO kind of a test case as to where the Guile Hero-MB line resides. Her cause is, of course, outright gallant, and she's never actually seen hurting anyone directly (she blows up the prison wall and a trash can on-screen). Buuuuuuut she's packing some serious ordnance in her warehouse, including naval mines, and Enola realizes (and the film makes it very clear) that, yes, this means her mother is capable of murder and is suitably creeped out, despite agreeing with her cause in every other respect.
No problem on magnificence - Eudoria is an able fighter, tactician, explosives chemist, and code-writer and -breaker; she uses ciphers, pictograms, otherwise-innocuous ads in newspapers, ands more with flawless aplomb.
Verdict?
It all depends on if the bomb warehouse is sufficient tu push her over from Guile Hero. What say you?
Happy to the OG Riddler
Unsure on Eudoria
I hate spoilers
I have been considering doing an EP for My Hero Academia (the character in question is Giran), but since the series is currently at 6 entries, would this result in a possible page. This would be fine if not for the community keeping a watchful eye on All For One and Dabi due to them displaying potential disqualifying factors (excessive megalomania and pettiness, respectively). So what should I do?
Edited by 227someguy on Feb 26th 2023 at 5:46:00 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Not the Eye
to Ridler, Okuchi, Hargreave, Deathshot
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I say go for it and if it pans out and we get the page we can simply cut it if AFO or Dabi end up getting cut.
As the person with Academia reserved I would definitely wait on Giran. The sheer number of The Bus Came Back moments makes me inclined to think we haven't seen the last of him and I think it's best to hold on since we're already on the final arc.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 26th 2023 at 3:12:09 AM
Yes to Riddler, Deadshot, and Eudora.
Any more votes for Clara?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Just recently played this game and I may have another CM from it...if the possible mitigating factors aren't too much of an issue. But I've got also got a character who's viable at least for discussion for MB since I can't find his name when searching for it.
What is the work?
Dragon Quest IX is the 9th entry within the Dragon Quest franchise. Following the story of an Celestrian, angels tasked with protecting humanity, you eventually get struck down from the heavens by an unknown force that ravaged the area. From there you go on a multi arc spanning story from trying to return home, to recovering celestial fyggs to fighting against the Gittish Empire. With the Empire's monarch, King Godwyn slain for good, you venture through his castle's dungeon where, deep down you find a lone prisoner who's our candidate for today, Corvus.
Who is Corvus and what has he done?
Gonna have to explain his backstory which be a bit chunky but it heavily helps with his "bastard" credentials don't worry.
Unfortunately this alerted the Empire of Wormwood's Celestrian presence so they send an even bigger armada to retrieve Corvus. Serena, not wanting Corvus to die fighting, takes him to a hidden cave beyond the village, while her father lies to the soliders that Corvus had cleared out. Although Corvus begrudgingly agreed, he changes his mind, out his duty to protect the mortals he cared about. Serena gives him a potion to help but it was secretly a sleeping potion since she knew he'd want to return.
Serena's father arrives with an Empire captain since he wanted to bargain Corvus for Wormwood Creek to be spared, saying that Serena had drugged Corvus to make it easier for the soliders to capture him... which is the last thing Corvus heard before losing consciousness. With Corvus at hand, the soldiers then kill Serena's father and goes to kill her but she somehow escapes and tries to find Corvus but dies while attacking the Gittish Empire with a beast of war. Unable to move on until her business concludes, Serena then roamed the world for 300 years, desperate to find Corvus and to apologise.
And what was happening to Corvus? Godwyn had him chained, drained of his magic and tortured constantly until Godwyn and the Empire were wiped out by Greygnarl and the humans who opposed the Empire, leaving Corvus alone within the depths of the dungeon. Far from staying a broken man, Corvus used his emotions from the betrayal of the race he once cared about growing an intense hatred of them which in turn he uses to fuel his power to strike back at the world and to unleash the misery he suffered due to humans.
Building enough power Corvus strikes the Almighty himself (as in capital G God), fragmenting him into grottoes beneath the earth while also destroying parts of the observatory. Corvus then revives the Empire, knowing that due to the blackness in their hearts, they'd continue their ambitions of destruction, fuelling Corvus' ambitions of having all life wiped out since he was still imprisoned within the depths of Godwyn's torture dungeon.
After Godwyn's demise, the player will discover Corvus and free him seeing as he's another captive Celestrian. Corvus wastes no time with attacking the player, and the ascending to the Almighty's realm with Barbarus to obliterate existence to end his suffering. Because Corvus' strength has eclipsed every being on the planet, including the other Celestrians who can't fight their elders due to a "law" (if a lower Celestrian tries to attack an elder, they will find themselves unable to move,) the player will have to consume a Fygg to become mortal to stand a chance against him.
Arriving at the Realm of the Almighty, the player is greeted with Corvus warping it to his domain, while also reviving Godwyn's 3 right hand men to stop the player in various spots. Fighting the player at last, Corvus will be surprised at being bested before shedding his Celestrian form into something more demonic, fleeing to fully transform. Just before the final boss, Corvus will have Barbarus attack while he fully transforms (which considering how vile Barbarus is, it's a fight I looked forward to.)
Fully transformed, Corvus battles the player for the fate of the universe. Even with the player victorious, it means nothing as Corvus is on the verge of success... until Serena finally finds him. Serena shows Corvus the truth, giving Corvus a Heel Realisation, reverting him to his normal Celestrian form. Thanking the hero for trying to stop his ambitions of omnicide, Corvus ascends with Serena to the stars with the rest of the Celestrians.
One final act from Corvus you can find post story is that, as an act to atone for his pupil's demise at Godwyn's hand, the hero's mentor Aquila, he reveals the way for a Celestrian to change their destiny to allow Aquila to return to the mortal realm.
Is he magnificent?
Far from a sobbing wreck from his Freudian Excuse, Corvus weaponizes his bitterness for his ambitions to strike back at the world that had betrayed him of both mortal and Celestrian alike. The only reason the hero stands a chance is because they had to use a divine instrument to factor their chances. Corvus' descent to villainy isn't treated as a reviled act but one with sorrow, even by the other Celestrians who feel horrible for not finding him.
He's got an arrogant attitude but it's never to a Smug Snake nature. This is the guy who fragmented God himself. Even when bested in both fights, his reaction to the first one was more surprised before he deduces how the hero did it and his reaction to the second and final fight? Almost end up destroying everything in one quick swoop, only stopping after seeing Serena.
Corvus also takes precautions after warping the Almighty's realm, reviving Godwyn's cronies as guards and having the toughest monsters within the base story guarding the domain. He's effective immediately as soon as he's released being a pure No-Nonsense Nemesis.
Oh and he has a boss great theme.
Is he a bastard?
I mean... attempting to end the universe? Only one other guy is part of that scale of omnicide in the game and he's listed as a CM. However said guy also has two attempts of mass murder in which one he forces a protagonist to watch out of sadistic glee.
Corvus doesn't have any sadistic Kick the Dog moments that make you go "what a dick". His tragic crusade is treated with a degree of sadness by the characters. Even his attempted omnicide is shown to be one massive blast of energy to destroy everything.
Final Verdict?
The thread decides as always!
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 26th 2023 at 1:52:08 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Goku Black
corvus
Btw you can also try remake Pasro the manslayer and Dhuran if you want a few others from the series
Okay so uh does Eudora plan to even do anything with those explosives. Just having them as a precaution weapon I don't think is enough?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
We don't know, as mentioned, but Enola thinks she's capable of it if nothing else.
Woagh
to Edward "How on earth is this the same guy as the Arkhamverse version" Nygma and Corvus.
Kinda leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Endora, not really sure if just keeping a lotta weapons is enough if there's no definitive proof that she's willing to do illegal shit with them.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 26th 2023 at 4:35:51 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Alright catching up on some E Ps, gonna read the ones on this page in a bit
Okuchi, Hargreave, Deadshot
I like the 1st quote most Pap
@Mir Dhuran would be quite a simple keeper but IIRC Psaro was manipulated by Aamon? It's been a while since I've played IV.
Oh if anyone's wondering Corvus is really the only viable candidate for discussion from IX. There mayyyyybe could be a case for Goresby Purrvis but I think he lacks the cunning despite ticking the other boxes really well IMO.
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
NES Psaro definitely doesn't keep - he plans to exterminate all humanity over the actions of literally three people (some random monster-hating rednecks who killed his girlfriend) at minimal prodding by Aamon. So he's both way disproportionate and really kind of a rube.
I believe we're talking remake Psaro, where you can convince him he's wrong and recruit him to make Aamon pay the piper.
- Scooby-Doo! Mystery Incorporated: Mayor Fred Jones Sr. is secretly the Freak of Crystal Cove, the Arc Villain for season 1 and arguably the gang's most personal enemy. Decades ago Jones came to Crystal Cove in search of its fabled treasure, and to do this used the Mystery Inc. of his time to find pieces of the Planispheric Disc for him. In league with their mascot Professor Pericles, Jones blackmailed the gang with forged documents to run them out of town, then promptly doubled on Pericles and successfully framed him for the deed. Because of Jones' plans, Pericles—no idle schemer himself—rots in prison for eighteen years, while Jones becomes Mayor of Crystal Cove. When Brad Chiles and Judy Reeves attempted to return years later, Jones kidnapped their baby as leverage to drive them off. Jones would name this baby "Fred" and for the next eighteen years of his life gradually comes to love him as his own son, to the point where he scuttles his own getaway to save Fred's life. Even after being arrested, Jones Sr. manages to help one-up Pericles again, and he ends as one of the show's few recurring villains to overcome the curse on himself, reconciling with Fred in the Sitting Room with pride and dignity.
Yes to the Riddler (Love the Pre-crisis stuff!) and Corvus. No to Eudoria.
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Riddler and Corvus, no to Holmes.
What's the work?
Superman: Red Son is an animated adaptation of the famous storyline of the same name. Set in an alternate universe where's Superman's pod landed in the Soviet Union, it follows the Kryptonian as he tries to uphold truth, justice, and the communist way, killing the dictator Stalin to lead the USSR to new heights. Naturally, America is a bit concerned about this. So who do they call to take on this new threat?
Who is Lex Luthor?
Everyone's favorite genius, billionaire, playboy, mad scientist, Lex Luthor—here married to reporter Lois Lane—is hired by the U.S. government to head their opposition to the Soviet Superman. His opening move? Sabotage a Soviet satellite to crash on Metropolis. Superman naturally intervenes to save the city, attempting to make his pitch to overthrow the capitalist overlords to the American people... before being met by Lois, who befriends him and informs him of the truth behind Stalin's seemingly benevolent reign.
While Superman subsequently turns on Stalin, Lex recovers the wrecked satellite and extracts samples of Superman's DNA, which he uses to clone a "Superior Man" (Bizarro). Now, Lex knows even this probably won't kill the Man of Steel. Fortunately, he doesn't want to kill him. He wants to make him feel fear, sending Bizarro to attack Moscow and gradually increasing the clone's power until it deforms and eventually explodes.
A few more weird things happen over the years. Superman fights, defeats, and reprograms the alien Brainiac to be his loyal servant, though the city of Stalingrad is permanently miniaturized in the process. A terrorist known only as the Batman begins launching attacks against the Soviet regime, with Lex providing him red sun lamps to depower the Kryptonian. A spaceship carrying the alien Abin Sur crashes on Earth, with Lex reverse engineering the ring's tech to create an entire squadron of Green Lantern fighter pilots.
Lex also gets himself elected president near the end of the movie. Under Superman, the USSR has been flourishing for decades, while America has fallen victim to poverty, discrimination, and several political assassinations. However, when Lex is elected? He starts whipping things into shape, ushering in economic reform with the help of Vice President Jimmy Olsen and Press Secretary Lois, restoring the country's proud democracy. And with his success, unrest begins to stir in the USSR, as Superman's people begin realizing "you don't have to give one man all the power in order for the world to be a better place."
After another attack sponsored by Luthor, Superman decides to take the fight to the White House and brings Brainiac with him for a total invasion of the U.S.. However, what he finds there isn't any resistance. Instead, he finds Lois with the bottled city of Stalingrad. After a bit of confusion as to how the hell Lex managed to steal it (he's Lex fuck you Luthor, that's how), Lois gives Superman the iconic "why don't you put the whole world in a bottle?" line. After all, Stalingrad is the perfect symbol of his perceived utopia, carefully controlled and protected. Superman protests that he doesn't want that... only for Brainiac to confirm that actually yeah, he could have restored the city at anytime, but Superman never asked, and he knew the Kryptonian subconsciously didn't want it. Superman, rattled, surrenders...
Only for Brainiac to ignore him, because of course Brainiac goes rogue. Lex arrives in his battlesuit to save Lois and help defeat the AI, then has Superman sacrifice himself by flying his ship into space when Brainiac spitefully sets it to self-destruct.
Sadly declaring "checkmate" as his age-old rival seemingly dies, Lex proceeds to step down as president. He's done everything he set out to accomplish: the Soviet Empire is beginning to collapse, democracy has been restored to America, and those goddamn aliens are gone. Now is the time for recovery, to help their fellow humans struggling in the east to restore their economy and find democracy. Lex entrusts this mission to Jimmy, setting out to enjoy retirement with his wife while the people of Earth lead themselves to true, global peace.
Is he magnificent?
Lex in the original comic was... well, basically a normal Lex Luthor. He was an egocentric dick who opposed Superman primarily because of his wounded ego, and the only reason he was considered a hero was because Superman in this continuity was part of the USSR. Not to say the comic version doesn't count, but he was still quite the ass.
Here? Lex is a genuine Well-Intentioned Extremist, while still maintaining all of the original's brilliance. Sure, he's a bit full of himself, but he loves Lois and feels regretful when he forgets stuff like anniversaries because of his work, in contrast to the comic where he was extremely neglectful. He revitalizes America into a new era of prosperity, constantly comes up with new ways to inconvenience Superman throughout the decades, and when they finally come to blows he manages to completely dismantle his will to fight with a single question. And, rather than take advantage of Superman's defeat to take over the world, here he willingly resigns as president, genuinely believing that democracy will see the world united in peace.
Is he a bastard?
I mean, he's still Lex. He drops a fucking satellite on Metropolis in the first ten minutes of the movie, and tortures Bizarro to death just to rattle Superman. He starts to shy away from more morally grey stuff when Lois angrily reprimands him for the latter incident, but he still does stuff like back a terrorist who blows up an entire city.
Verdict?
Easy keep, and the first of two for this movie.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Mar 2nd 2024 at 5:20:14 AM
Pensive Wright
This is a re-proposal of a character that was formerly cut, who I think deserves a re-appraisal given their subsequent appearances.
What’s The Work
My Little Pony: Equestria Girls especially My Little Pony: Equestria Girls – Rainbow Rocks, plus some content from the main show.
Who Is Adagio Dazzle?
Adagio Dazzle, the leader of three siren sisters, and the Big Bad of Rainbow Rocks.
What does she do?
One thousand years ago in Equestria, Adagio and her sisters Sonata and Aria were sirens; monsters who fed off negative emotions, and whose song spread a Hate Plague that caused ponies to violently attack one another. They were defeated by the Pillars of Equestria, especially Starswirl The Bearded, who banished them to the human world. In the human world, their only magic was contained in special gems they wore that allowed them to continue spreading negativity and feeding off it by singing, but they were confined to human bodies and only powerful enough to make, at most, a cafeteria of people argue.
One night, however, they witnessed the events of the climax of the first Equestria Girls film. They didn’t see everything, only a spectacular lightshow, but they sensed magic was at play. Adagio realized that there was other Equestrian magic in the human world, and determined to track down its source, harness it, and amplify their power so they could make the whole world adore them and rule it.
To this end, Adagio and her sisters tracked the magic to Canterlot High and enrolled as new students. Sunset Shimmer was assigned to show them around, and when she mentioned the school's upcoming musical talent show, Adagio came up with an idea to further suss out the source of the magic; she and her sisters used their song in the school lunchroom to convince the school to turn the talent show into a Battle of the Bands and drive the school's many musical groups into fierce competition with one another. Later on, we see they also used their song on Principals Celestia and Luna to ensure there'd be no interference.
The Rainbooms aka the Humane 6 try to stop the sirens, which makes Adagio realizes that they are immune to their charms and are the source of the Equestrian magic. Adagio then uses her charms and song to turn the school against the Rainbooms, but still cannot absorb their magic until she gets them to fight amongst themselves.
The competition continues and the students' rivalry heats up, feeding the sirens. When Sunset Shimmer confronts the sirens alone and assures them they'll never get away with what they're doing, Adagio and the sirens take the opportunity to play off Sunset's insecurities, revealing that they know about her past as a villain and how she's Reformed, but Rejected by the school and not actually part of the Rainbooms. Sunset is clearly hurt by their words, which helps further divide the heroes.
When it looks like Trixie Lulamoon's band might beat the Rainbooms to the finals due to an unexpected manifestation of magic and Sunset Shimmer's intervention sabotaging the Rainbooms' performance, the Sirens use their song to make the principals declare the Rainbooms the winner. The school's hatred, and especially Trixie’s resentment towards the Rainbooms grows, and Adagio and her sisters then approach Trixie. They pretend to console Trixie, but make sure to comment that she could still perform in the finals if the Rainbooms are somehow unable to perform that night.
Trixie falls for their manipulation and locks the Rainbooms under the stage for the rest of the day. When Trixie performs onstage, the Rainboom's disagreements come to a head and they start fighting amongst themselves, which allows the Sirens to finally absorb the magic and transform into hybrid creatures of their human and Siren forms. With their new power, they take full control of the performance’s crowd, but The Rainbooms escape thanks to the help of DJ PON3, who proved immune to the Sirens' song because she never takes her headphone off, and thus never heard it. DJ PON3 and the Rainbooms begin their own musical performance that will serve as a counterspell to the Sirens'. But Sirens nearly overwhelm the group before Sunset joins the Rainbooms, and the combined energy of the heroines destroys the siren’s amulets, removing their powers and rendering them Hollywood Tone-Deaf. They try to sing again, but the audience boos and throws debris at them, and the sirens flee in humiliation.
An undetermined amount of time later, the Humane 7 encounter the Sirens again at a musical festival; having apparently re-learned how to sing beautifully, the three have become normal performers who sing before adoring crowds. Their main musical number is about how they felt lost without their magic, but found new purpose in their new lives. Sunset Shimmer initially believes them to be behind the "Groundhog Day" Loop she's trapped in and confronts them, but Adagio reveals they aren't responsible. The sirens admit trying to control Canterlot High was a mistake, but still make it clear they want to return to Equestria and call "dibs" on any Equestrian magic in the area. They also mock Sunset's predicament (though not fully understanding it), and move on.
Is she a bitch?
She was originally a monster who spread a Hate Plague through Equestria. In her most notable appearance, she's an Alpha Bitch who spreads a Hate Plague and wants to Take Over the World (by making everyone adore them). No issues here.
In her last appearance, after her most notable and humiliating defeat (more on that in a second) she's and her sisters are no longer trying to Take Over the World or even committing any real crimes, and don't serve as antagonists, but that's only because they no longer have any real powers. They only regret attacking Canterlot High because it cost them their powers, and comment that if they find any Equestrian magic, they'll happily use it, implicitly to become proper sirens again. They spend most of their interaction with Sunset Shimmer mocking her as well, so I'd say Adagio's still a Bitch.
Is she magnificent?
Adagio is the leader of the group who does all the important deductions and comes up with their plans. They come to Canterlot High with no set plan beyond "find the source of the Equestrian magic and absorb it," but Adagio picks up on every clue and seizes every opportunity that presents themself. Their siren song gives them a great deal of power over normal humans, but Adagio finds ways to work around her actual targets being immune by turning the school against them through both magic, and normal emotional manipulation. Eventually, she succeeds in both getting the Rainbooms to fight, and even when the Rainbooms launch their musical counterspell (which wouldn't have been possible had DJ PON3 not let them out of the trap the sirens set up), they almost defeat the heroes in a pitched musical battle.
Adagio is arrogant and condescending but has the wits and ability to back up her confidence. Outside of times her sister's antics annoy her or when she's genuinely losing, Adagio is always calm and in control.
But all this has been gone over before; Adagio was cut some time ago for having a humiliating defeat in her debut film; to recap; after a fierce pitched battle, the sirens' amulets get shattered, stripping them of their powers and (seemingly) ability to sing properly. They try to sing again, but sound horrible, and the no-longer mind-controlled audience boos and throws food at them, making them run off the stage.
This brief moment doesn't actually display cowardice since they had no real choice save to flee. Still, a humiliating defeat at the end of the character's debut appearance was seen as undermining Adagio's magnificence, and so she was cut.
However, in light of the character's subsequent appearances, I argue she should be reinstated; chronologically, her first appearance was in flashbacks to her and her sister's initial reign of terror, then banishment. They don't actually speak here, but they're just banished by the casting of a magical spell; a defeat, but a normal, non-humiliating one.
Chronologically after Rainbow Rocks, we see that Adagio lead her sisters in recovering from their second defeat as best they could; they've learned how to sing beautifully without magic, and now perform for adoring humans, effectively finding the "magic" in the human world, though they still largely despise it and it's mundane problems, so I don't think her one humiliating defeat is any more defining than Loki getting smacked around by Hulk.
Conclusion
Adagio was previously approved due to being smart, charismatic, and evil, and only cut for having an undignified defeat. But said defeat is brief, not her only canon loss, and afterward she recovered as well as can be expected, remaining a Bitch, just one without the powers to be truly dangerous. I think she deserves a reinstatement.
Yes to Lex and I do feel we were right to cut Adiago with the info presented last time because that's a really undignified end. That said, as she comes back and functions fine afterwards I don't see the issue to re-adding her.
Yes to Ridder, Corvus, & readding Adagio.
Corvus, Red Son Lex, Adagio. But I thought only three EPs per page was the rule? Did that get changed?
to President Lex Luthor, Corvus and The Riddler (Pre-crisis).
to readding Adagio. This case appears to be very similar to the reason we keep Azula (character had an undignified end but recovers enough to still count).
Edited by Idisagree on Feb 26th 2023 at 8:14:32 AM
Four per page actually.
Likewise I'm leaning No on Sergey myself, Yana I could maybe be convinced on since she's training to become a thief but it's definitely a borderline case if so.
Aight change of plans: Pre-Crisis!Joker is in a few more issues than I anticipated, so he is going on the hold list until I can read all of his material. I'll get to him at a later point, hopefully not too far in the future, unless someone gets to him first which is totally cool with me! In the meantime, let me wrap up this current batch of Pre-Crisis with the natural counterpart to the Joker:
Who is the Riddler? What makes him a candidate?
Edward Nigma, born with gifted intelligence but a natural desire for immorality, became a successful con artist for years before ultimately dedicating himself to crime in Gotham City.
Riddler has a fair number of appearances, so instead of boring y'all with a precise rundown of every single one, lemme broad strokes ya here.
In almost every one of his appearances, Riddler escapes prison at the start with ease. He uses puzzles, clues, brain teasers and riddles to warn Batman and the Gotham police of his upcoming crimes. Even with these clues, the heroes often misinterpret or arrive too late to stop Riddler's crimes at first, only finally getting the drop on him near the end of the issues. Even when caught, Riddler almost never suffers any true Villainous Breakdown, his reactions ranging from mild annoyance to flat-out Graceful Loser accepting his defeat. In one amusing defeat, Riddler is taken down by Elongated Man, who gets into an argument with Batman over whose interpretation of Riddler's latest puzzle is. Riddler smugly refuses to give the real answer just to let the heroes butt heads lmao
Cursed with a compulsion to leave his riddles even when he tries to stop himself, Riddler uses psychology to train himself to work around his compulsions. He hides riddles inside riddles, uses multiple pointless riddles to tie together into a larger one, etc. all as newer, more unique means to try to dance his way around Batman and his compulsion. In one unique instance, Riddler hides his latest clue inside an explosive, and Batman manages to see it only by sheet coincidence that a nearby citizen flashed her camera at the exact same moment the explosion happened.
Riddler's tech and even combat skills are nothing to laugh at, either. Riddler is able to actually go toe-to-toe with Batman and Robin through use of such devices electricity in his suit that makes him untouchable; itching chemicals that make anyone who punches him immediately become irritated; a false foam face over his real one that can absorb punches; and even manages to use a close-quarters shuffle with Batman to glue the hero's utility belt shut without Batman noticing until later.
Genuinely valuing the fun of puzzles and riddles even from strangers, Riddler at one point holds a man up and demands he tell Riddler a unique brain teaser. When the man does, Riddler pays him for a good one. Riddler in another instance is stopped by a random child who shares a riddle with the "big bad supervillain"...and Riddler promptly laughs in delight and hands the kid $100.
For some specific cases where, though he's eventually beaten, he proves his smarts?
In one of Riddler's final appearances that truly pushes him into magnificence? He learns that a villain is "stealing his schtick" and leaving clues for Batman...Riddler pulls an Enemy Mine with Batman to investigate the crimes being committed out of a sense of cheated pride, during which time Riddler not only saves Batman more than once, but also kills multiple criminals who threatened them. When the true villain, Hugh Creighton, captures Batman and Riddler and sets them up to die, Riddler is the one to overcome his captor, rush in and—at literally no benefit to himself—risk his life to save Batman's. When the duo is recovering later at the hospital, Batman straight up thanks Riddler for the help, and though Riddler tries to brush it off as simply wanting Batman to give him the "solution" to Creighton's final clue, he can't help but note that he has "ethics...all I care about is the game."
Is Riddler magnificent?
He's the usual "brilliant puzzlemaster and tech smartie" as always, but what really distinguishes Pre-Crisis!Riddler is how much he adapts his schemes over every appearance and is shown to be fighting a genuine psychological compulsion to leave riddles and clues. He literally cannot commit a crime without leaving any, yet he trains himself in psychology and mental inventory to devise cleverer ways of going about his tasks. And the issue where he teams with Batman is just really, really major badass and charming points in his favor as he proves himself a Noble Demon who values Batman as a foe.
He is, of course, the Riddler and so does fall into Big "NO!" or This Cannot Be! here and there, but it's far outweighed by his genuine fairplay, graceful nature in which he'll sometimes even compliment Batman for outdoing him and simply swear to try harder next time.
Is he a bastard?
Yeah, he's a master criminal and even murders a couple folks, but Riddler always prefers to avoid death and he, again, proves his true mettle when he nearly kills himself in the process of saving Batman from Creighton.
Final Verdict?
Easy Yes to this Riddler.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.