![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And before someone suggests it for alliterative appeal, I really don't think 'Audience Alienating Age' is a good idea for a trope name. 
On a serious note, I'm wondering whether to suggest Viewership Decline Period as an alternative to Viewership Decline Era, but I can't quite put into words why I don't like the use of 'Era' for this trope name. It just feels woolly, even though the name doesn't seem particularly woolly overall.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 3rd 2022 at 6:46:14 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I think I get what you're saying. Change mine to "Audience Alienating Period".
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
What about Audience Alienating Phase or Viewership Decline Phase?
Which word would be better? Era, Period, or Phase?
Kirby is awesome.
Leader of the Menagerie
Lots of coffee
No more Audience Alienating Anything please, it's going to devolve into a snowclone at this rate. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
It should be noted that the current description of Dork Age is linked to changes that alienate the audience, so either we can relate the title's name to unpopular changes (Unpopular Period Of Change for example) or change the trope so it is about a general period of unpopularity within the franchise (which would mean It's the Same, Now It Sucks! would be a valid reason to be put as an example if sameness is the reason for popularity decline)
Edited by JustaUsername on Jan 3rd 2022 at 11:01:29 PM
Some people say I'm lazy. It's hard to disagree.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Crowner hooked with the name suggestions that came up.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Is it just me, or does the word "viewership" feel rather restrictive compared to "audience"?
As "Viewership Downturn Era" seems to be the most popular option right now, perhaps we could have "Audience Downturn Era" as an option as well. Or Popularity Downturn Era
That's why I proposed the "Audience Alienating..." names, because dork ages usually coincide with one or more failed attempts to keep the work fresh. A work merely falling out of popularity isn't a trope. (Or at the very least, would overlap with a number of other tropes about the audience being put off).
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
A work falling out of popularity isn't a trope, but neither is Dork Age. They're both audience reactions. And I do think we should generalize it, because I feel like the important part is the reaction and viewership drop, not the reasons for said viewership drop.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Yeah, Not a Trope covers more than just People Sit on Chairs. Audience Reactions, Trivia, and Useful Notes aren't tropes, but they're not Chairs either.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I oppose any rename involving "Viewership" or similar, since the term doesn't cover video games and tabletop games (which are played) or comics, literature, and manga (which are read), or music and podcasts (which are listened to); none of these are viewed per se.
Edited by Albert3105 on Jan 7th 2022 at 7:52:43 AM
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
I much prefer "Audience" over "Viewership." Even interactive media (such as video games) have audiences.
Even Wiktionary's definition of "audience" includes readership (dating as early as the 19th century):
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/audience
Edited by Nen_desharu on Jan 7th 2022 at 9:52:02 AM
Kirby is awesome.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of Audience-Alienating Era. The other names with at least a 2:1 ratio (Viewership Downturn Era, Audience Alienating Period, and Audience Alienating Phase) will be redirects.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 7th 2022 at 9:47:46 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I'm wondering, how are we meant to deal with the loads of complainy entries on Dork Age (or Audience-Alienating Era as its called now), especially for the series that have foldered entries or the entries that are basically just essays?
Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 7th 2022 at 12:13:01 PM
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
Just wondering, what would be the criteria for a work being considered seasonal rot in the first place. Now we obviously have to have said season or work be considered to be "weaker" than the others but to what degree? Does it have to be seen as somewhat not as good as the works before it(ie: a game or tv series season or movie that gets a average review score of 80-ish vs. 90-ish to 100% of a earlier game/movie/tv season), or does that have to be a wide agreed large gap/drop in quality.
It might be a bit early to look into the trope page itself and do a cleanup(because there are quite a few stuff that would belong in Audience Alienating Era), but I am a bit curious about that
Edited by xie323 on Jan 10th 2022 at 9:59:40 AM
Entries that don't meet the 5-year requirement are easy deletions. I reckon it suffers from a lot of Episodic Troping, and "essays" suggests they're knee-jerky and prime candidates for the complaining thread
Edited by Tabs on Jan 10th 2022 at 10:32:59 AM
So some examples I'm concerned about:
The entire seasonal rot page for The Fairly OddParents!.
I am not sure if this is legitimately a case of seasonal rot since multiple sucessive seasons are highlighted. I think FOP is that show where it just got worse and worse quality wise. Perhaps audience alienating era would be better.
The entire seasonal rot page for Seasonal Rot/Supernatural.
Again, another case of multiple sucessive seasons being highlighted back to back and I do feel there is a bit of a complaining element to it since Supernatural is one of that sort of fanbases.
- World of Warcraft:
- Although some fans claim that the rot had begun as early as Wrath of the Lich King or even The Burning Crusade, the common consensus among players is that Cataclysm was the beginning of WoW's rot. It marked the beginning of the subscription decline due to the story's intense focus on Thrall punctuated by a content drought after the Dragon Soul raid lasting 10 months. The next expansion Mists of Pandaria had a major of content then, this was followed by 5.4, which led to another content drought lasting 13 months and its story was no better, getting rid of the things in the setting that were original by making the formerly heroic Horde Stupid Evil and the Alliance Lawful Stupid. It was then followed by the lackluster Warlords of Draenor, which had one content patch, and then a content drought that lasted 14 months.
- Legion was considered a return to form that brought players back, thanks to a better plot and far more content. Unfortunately, Battle for Azeroth essentially slashed that, removing all the good will Legion built. The game was bogged down with unfun RNG-based gear and what many players consider a worse progression system than the previous expansion had. Plot-wise, previous fan favourite Sylvanas was turned from an Anti-Hero to an almost cartoonish Card-Carrying Villain and the Alliance were again made the main good guys, repeating a lot of the mistakes from Mists. It was thankfully improved by several huge content patches, but BfA is still WoW's lowest point for player count.
Mists of Pandaria got vindicated by history and re-assessed positively so not sure if it is an example.
Edited by xie323 on Jan 10th 2022 at 11:39:24 AM
Part of the reason why FOP has so many seasons listed is because while the fandom agrees that seasonal rot happened, there is a VERY Broken Base regarding exactly which seasons are rotten. Also, the one surefire audience alienating era of FOP can't be added because it extended to the end of the show, and it hasn't been five years since the show ended.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, doesn't Audience-Alienating Era have to be temporary? Otherwise it's just "the work got bad".
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
That's what I always thought, that the show had to have recovered from it, which it can't do if it ended. I was also under the impression that the popularity dip had to be abrupt given that the page description and laconic mention the audience being put off by something, and FOP's loss of popularity was by no means abrupt.
Ok looking at Fairy Oddparents and the unique situation tied to its' downfall, as well as what audience alienating era entails I'll retract my concerns about that page.
What about removing Mists of Pandaria over it getting Vindicated by History and seen as one of Wo W's best expansions nowadays, which kinda makes any assessment a bit harder to make. WOD, BFA and Cataclysm can stay through.
Edited by xie323 on Jan 10th 2022 at 11:41:49 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I neglected to ask this before, but does the description for Audience-Alienating Era need to be sandboxed, or can the contents of Main.Dork Age be moved as-is?
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Some entries that might be a bit problematic for seasonal rot I am going to bring up here, with an explanation as to why.
- The third season of Monster Rancher is a Post-Script Season significantly Lighter and Softer than the rest of the series, having villains that are Denser and Wackier, no real stakes until the end, a fair amount of filler, and a rushed (if still epic) climax. It doesn't help that some popular characters are reduced to one-episode appearances and Holly becomes mostly useless. It definitely still has a lot of fans though, with many saying that while the overall story is weaker the season still contains some of the best episodes in the whole anime and gave the series a more satisfying conclusion.
- Many consider Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 a step down from the first season due to increasingly absurd plot twists, the vast majority of the old cast being Out of Focus, plot threads going unresolved or just dropped entirely, and an increased focus on mecha battles at the expense of the strategic interplay that characterized much of the first season (and main character Lelouch).
- Angel, much like Buffy, is subject to a lot of argument over this.
- A minority of fans found Season 4 to be extremely hard-going, thanks to a Bait-and-Switch Villain, a hefty portion of Squick, and the continually annoying Wangst of Connor. Summed up nicely by Gunn's description of the season thus far as "a supernatural soap-opera."
- However, a sizeable minority of the fandom loved Season 4 above all others for being one long serial with constant plot momentum, providing new revelations and/or resolution for plot arcs dating back to Buffy, and a subset of these were disappointed by the network-mandated episodic nature of much of Season 5.
- Every edition of Dungeons & Dragons has had this accusation levied at it, except the very first version and that's only because Seasonal Rot requires a previous version for which it can be considered to have gone downhill from. Every edition has brought its ups and downs, and every edition has had its vocal critics. Third Edition, Fourth Edition and Fifth Edition merely came about in the internet era, where complaints can be more easily made (though Fifth edition has been the most well received by far). Of all the editions, Fourth Edition is considered the worst example because it very nearly ended up being a Franchise Killer due to the design choices made during it, as it currently sits as the shortest supported time of the games lifespan.
- Depending on who you ask, Magic: The Gathering entered this during any number of points across its 20+ years: Chronicles, which was the first set to reprint cards from older sets, therefore diminishing their value to older players and collectors; Sixth Edition, which changed the original rules drastically; Eighth Edition, which changed the card frames and "dumbed down" certain cards so the game could be more accessible to a greater fanbase of new players; Time Spiral, which drastically changed how planeswalkers worked and retooled a number of existing story elements; Tenth Edition and Magic 2010, which both altered the existing rules further and streamlined the game significantly; or Zendikar, which is where many players felt the Power Creep of MTG really began skyrocketing. Despite all the discontent, however, the franchise is still going very strong and shows no signs of slowing down, in part thanks to an R&D team that is made of many former players and listens to its fanbase.
- Pokémon: A small but loud segment of longtime fans feel that the installments of the main games from Pokémon X and Y onward aren't as good as the previous ones. The most common criticisms are the lack of post-game content compared to the 2D games, the Gen I pandering, the difficulty of the main story being made easier, the 3D models of the Pokémon being lifeless compared to the sprites and, most infamously, Pokémon Sword and Shield actively removing roughly one-third of all Pokémon (more than half prior to the launch of DLC) from previous games with no way of using them at all.
- Trails Series: The Cold Steel arc is accused by many fans to be the weakest point in the series as a whole, doubling down on Falcom's weaker writing aspects. Incredibly tropey characters and situations, the series tendency to overextend the cast into a huge pile of underwritten characters struggling for screentime, a lack of notable deaths and consequences that should by all rights make the games darker than the extremely lighthearted antics would suggest, and a large chunk of plot developments implied in previous games never coming to pass. Among the games, II gets this criticism the most, for its heavy amount of Padding that stretches out an already slow-moving plot into a scenario that struggles to depict a imperial civil war with the seriousness that implies.
Note: The Legend of Heroes entry comes from the The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel Page, it is not on the Seasonal Rot Page, but it has some of the issues I see with the other entries I've highlighted here.
So all of these entries are somewhat problematic. They involve works that are on here because of a vocal minority of fans viewing it to be lower quality, which makes me unsure if this is enough data to qualify for seasonal rot, a strong critical response that seemingly contradicts a "general agreement" that the quality of the work degraded, lack of data pointing to a general consensus, and multiple seasons or literations of a work mentioned without context. Here is an explanation regarding why for each.
- Monster Rancher: The entry states that season 3 had "a lot of fans" and honestly this entire entry comes off as "I didn't really like this season because of how different and lighter it is". Nothing really much about the reception of this series is discussed to point to seasonal rot so this needs to be rewritten or cut.
- Code Geass: I am willing to consider that this may be a case of seasonal rot since R2 and its' revelations and the ending did get some noteworthy backlash online. However, it does seem the majority of fans and critics seem to enjoy R2, from my personal experience interacting with fans IRL and looking at professional reviews, and to this day, Lelouch and the Zero Requiem plan are both seen as masterful storytelling. So I am not sure if the backlash is strong or dominant enough for this to be seen as a case of Seasonal Rot or at least a significant step down.
- Angel: Mentions season 4 and only season 4, while noting that a minority of fans had this view and Season 4 has a good share of fans. Honestly, unless someone can prove that Season 4 was seen as a huge step down, burn this entry with fire.
- Dungeons & Dragons: I do not play D&D, however it does seem to be a case of First Installment Wins and every installment having a fair share of fans. The fourth edition however, does seem to be a clear example of Seasonal Rot, so could be rewrote unless there is proof that its' a "Dungeons and Dragons got worse and worse after S1 and we debate 24/7 where the rot started" like FOP.
- Magic the Gathering: I do not know anything about this one, how are the various editions received? Is it also a case where each edition is worse received than the previous, but its' debated when the rot set in—which is something that I doubt considering how the franchise is still noted on the very entry to be popular.
- Pokemon: How strong/vocal is the post Black & White hatedom anyways? I could maybe see a case for at least Sword & Shield because of the Pokedex related controversies surrounding it and X&Y as well since I remember that generation was a bit polarizing, but as it stands its' framed as "vocal minority dosen't like it" so at the very least this needs a rewrite.
- Trails Series: From my knowledge, the Cold Steel Games, while seen as a step down from the Trails in the Sky trilogy and the Crossbell duology, are highly regarded in the Falcom fandom outside a vocal hatedom, with III and IV being seen as some of the best written games in the series. The only thing that is widely criticized across the board is the romance/bonding mechanics being extremely poorly implemented.
Edited by xie323 on Jan 11th 2022 at 10:37:42 AM
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Dork Age. What should its new name be?
I previously suggested "Audience Alienating Era".