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Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, Zero-Context, et al.)

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This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.

In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)

The policy governing this effort is Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.

Edited by nombretomado on Jun 10th 2019 at 6:08:27 AM

nombretomado MOD the formatting mod from just kind of around Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Mar 4th 2019 at 7:52:01 PM

Continuing from the other thread:

To make sure I'm understanding the new policy correctly, I asked if tropes like this one from Pokémon Sword and Shield:

...should be rewritten according to this:

(It is in the best interest of any work page to note that a trope is appearing in a trailer et al if not in the film/TV show/etc. itself. This will also help to avoid dating the work page once the work is post-release.)

to something like this:

Nombretomado confirmed that yes, since we have no way of being certain that the cameo will appear in the work itself, it should be made clear that it takes place in the trailer.

I went on to ask about the status of pages like Characters.Pokemon Generation VIII Families, in which all of the tropes come from trailers or other pre-release marketing materials, but are written as if they apply to the game. Do all of these tropes require rewriting to make clear that they apply to the trailer?

Nombretomado replied that "a trope based on a characterization is presumed to be consistent throughout the work.... The nature of a Starter Mon isn't going to change from a trailer to a a work in full."

I asked if that would also apply to examples like:

  • Shrinking Violet: Described as timid, and it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance.

And that's roughly where we left it before that thread was locked.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 4th 2019 at 7:53:07 AM

Mar 4th 2019 at 7:56:26 PM

Nombretomado's final message in that thread:

To be candid, it feels like you are trying to poke holes in the decision the mod team has made. A good faith effort can be made to keep character sheets from being too speculative. Citing sources on pre-release examples can be implemented reasonably. You do not have to participate in the clean-up thread, particularly if you feel that the policy detailed above is not clear enough for you to make solid discernment on what crosses the line into unfounded speculation.

The mod team has decided that the standard I proposed— that works should not be troped pre-release at all— is not the one the wiki will use. Fair enough.

I am attempting to explore what standard the wiki will be using to discern between "founded" and "unfounded" speculation on pre-release works.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 4th 2019 at 7:58:58 AM

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Mar 4th 2019 at 8:20:43 PM

I'm confused: is the decision to handle locking prerelease pages on a case-by-case basis intended to apply to YMMV tropes too? Because if so that doesn't feel right, given that opinions on whether prerelease troping was problematic differed a lot between main and YMMV pages.

nombretomado the formatting mod from just kind of around Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
the formatting mod
Mar 4th 2019 at 8:21:16 PM

Case-by-case is for all troping, including YMMV.

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Mar 4th 2019 at 8:25:56 PM

So YMMV pages for pre-release works will not be locked preemptively as a matter of policy?

If that's the case, since the policy thread was locked before I could say anything there, I want to just take a moment to register my strongest possible disagreement with the mods on that decision. I'm aware that debating policy is not the point of this thread and won't try and argue any further - I simply don't want to even imply that I think the current status quo works.

Crossover-Enthusiast F E A R from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
F E A R
Mar 4th 2019 at 8:40:00 PM

@High Crate: Sobble is described as "somewhat timid" on the official website.

Considering the new policy, does that mean VideoGame.Pokemon Sword And Shield will be unlocked anytime soon?

I don't know what this thing is, and that terrifies me!
WarJay77 Spooky Scary from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Spooky Scary
Mar 4th 2019 at 8:49:57 PM

I'm not too fond of the YMMV ruling either, since I genuinely don't understand how anything (except for maybe one or two audience reactions) can be valid pre-release. YMMV pages seem to be, by far, the worst of these sorts of pages.

I guess it's too late to do anything about it though, so we'll just have to stay vigilant.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Mar 4th 2019 at 9:03:27 PM

[up][up] And I assume that "it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance" is from the trailer? In that case it could be rewritten to something like:

  • Shrinking Violet: The official website describes it as timid, and it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance in the announcement trailer.

Does that look accurate?

Crossover-Enthusiast F E A R from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
F E A R
Mar 4th 2019 at 9:07:18 PM

Yep.

I don't know what this thing is, and that terrifies me!
RallyBot2 King of Nitpicking from Nowhere Significant Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
King of Nitpicking
Mar 5th 2019 at 6:58:31 AM

The Pokémon Sword and Shield page's trope list begins with

Tropes associated with the trailers and promotions of Pokemon Sword and Pokemon Shield are:

I'm not fond of this, as this makes it look like the page is for the trailer and not the game(s). Of course, the only material we can trope is from trailers, promotional material, and the occasional Word of God, but the page is still about the work.

Change this to a standard "Tropes associated with this work:" header or no?

Mar 5th 2019 at 7:27:16 AM

While I do think it should be changed to the standard "Tropes associated with this work:" header, I wouldn't be against leaving it as a compromise, with the understanding that we'll change it upon release. I'm just worried we'll forget to change it on release, since it's easy to forget about the header.

sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
Mar 5th 2019 at 7:29:29 AM

Would a commented out notice help with that?

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Albert3105 Magikarp deterrence
Magikarp deterrence
Mar 5th 2019 at 7:42:13 AM

@RallyBot2 that was a remnant of the pagemove drama I sparked when I changed the main page's namespace a few days ago (which was reverted). The header should be reverted per Nombretomato's decision.

Edited by Albert3105 on Mar 5th 2019 at 7:43:47 AM

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 5th 2019 at 3:58:06 PM

I scrubbed Captain Marvel (2019) to provide a clean slate for when people start pouring in 8 March. A couple of casting examples and meta-plot tropes qualify as part of the movie proper, so I left them alone. I'd appreciate a second set of eyes or more to repair any of my mistakes.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Mar 5th 2019 at 4:38:54 PM

I question the following from Captain Marvel (2019):

  • Mythology Gag:
    • Set photos show Carol and her Kree teammates in a palette-swapped version of her Captain Marvel uniform that's green and black rather than her iconic red and blue. The green outfit is a nice echo of Mar-Vell's very first (green and white) uniform as well as that of his Ultimate version.
    • The trailers show Carol's uniform comes with a retractable helmet that resembles her comic book mask, complete with white Glowing Eyes.
    • Carol's cat appears in the bottom left corner of the official poster.

What's the "gag" in an adaptation using elements of the work it's adapting? Looks like shoehorning to me.

Edit: Also this:

This trailers imply this, but Trailers Always Lie. In particular, trailers often show things out-of-order or out-of-context. This strikes me as overly speculative, even by the standards of this thread.

And these:

We don't know if Nick Fury in this movie is the same calm, intelligent, and businesslike person he is in the other MCU films. It's a prequel after all; he could be brash and emotional at this point in his life for all we know. Likewise, we don't know if he's "kindhearted" in the way that Kindhearted Cat Lover requires.

Motion to delete.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 5th 2019 at 5:14:44 AM

bwburke94 My Ice Cream Waifu from Remnant Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
My Ice Cream Waifu
Mar 5th 2019 at 8:11:18 PM

Should we make a sandbox for Pokémon, considering the scope of the requested changes? Better than trying to make them all at once.

Misspelled trope names dealt with... for now. Moving back to the Understatement project soon?
Mar 6th 2019 at 7:58:11 AM

I'm not a fan of having examples that read "The trailers show that...". It creates a bunch of text that will sound dated once the work comes out, since in a majority of cases, a trope that is in the trailers will also be in the final work. It's like a lesser version of Examples Are Not Recent.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Mar 6th 2019 at 7:58:17 AM

[up][up] Sure.


[up] In a "majority" of cases, trailers present events in Anachronic Order with Unreliable Voiceover and Deleted Scenes. Saying what trailers use what tropes is citing the source, much like saying "in episode 1" or "in chapter 15". It's not like the trailers disappear once the movie comes out.
Unreleased works:

Edited by crazysamaritan on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:11:12 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Primis from Nsburg
Mar 6th 2019 at 9:22:43 AM

Film.Hellboy 2019 is another unreleased work. I haven't been following the production of this movie, so I don't know what's actually been announced and what is just speculation.

I also made a page for an unreleased indie game awhile ago: VideoGame.Kyle And Lucy Wonderworld. There's a playable demo, and most of the tropes I included are from that, the rest are based on promotional material.

Night Vision Image Quality Cleanup Thread
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Mar 10th 2019 at 4:13:30 PM

Wizards 2019 has two entries on it.

One is a Foreshadowing entry that has too little context. It doesn't say what is being foreshadowed. Even if it turns out to be legit, it will belong on the page of the work where the foreshadowing happens, not the page of the work being foreshadowed.

The other is written in the future tense, implying Speculative Troping.

The page has no legit examples, and would fall short of the three-example minimum anyway.

Motion to cutlist.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:13:40 AM

Mar 10th 2019 at 4:30:34 PM

[up] Agreed, if we don't even have a trailer, just a poster, it's too early to have a page.


Speaking of which, I'd like to bring up Steven Universe: The Movie. It DOES have 3 tropes, none of which seem to be speculation, but it's all based on a very vague teaser trailer. We don't know ANYTHING about the movie's premise, so the page is very bare-bones.

Mar 10th 2019 at 4:37:57 PM

[up]

The The Movie entry is a Zero-Context Example. The Movie isn't just any movie based on a TV series; it must be in continuity with the series, or else it's either a Non-Serial Movie (if it's a new story but non-canon) or The Film of the Series (if it's a new adaptation of the same story as the series).

If it's true that "Nothing else is known about the film beyond Sunmin Image Pictures serving as the animation production house," then we don't know which trope applies, meaning that listing The Movie is Speculative Troping.

The other two seem fine, but that does bring it below the three-example minimum, which would mean it should be cutlisted as well.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:42:31 AM

Mar 10th 2019 at 4:42:14 PM

The Owl House has five entries, all of which have problems:

Motion to cutlist, unless there's enough information out there to fix three or more of the ZCEs.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:45:10 AM


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