Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

Continuing from the other thread:

To make sure I'm understanding the new policy correctly, I asked if tropes like this one from Pokémon Sword and Shield:

• Console Cameo: A Nintendo Switch can be seen in the protagonist's room.

...should be rewritten according to this:

(It is in the best interest of any work page to note that a trope is appearing in a trailer et al if not in the film/TV show/etc. itself. This will also help to avoid dating the work page once the work is post-release.)

to something like this:

• Console Cameo: In the announcement trailer, a Nintendo Switch can be seen in the protagonist's room.

Nombretomado confirmed that yes, since we have no way of being certain that the cameo will appear in the work itself, it should be made clear that it takes place in the trailer.

I went on to ask about the status of pages like Characters.Pokemon Generation VIII Families, in which all of the tropes come from trailers or other pre-release marketing materials, but are written as if they apply to the game. Do all of these tropes require rewriting to make clear that they apply to the trailer?

Nombretomado replied that "a trope based on a characterization is presumed to be consistent throughout the work.... The nature of a Starter Mon isn't going to change from a trailer to a a work in full."

I asked if that would also apply to examples like:

• Shrinking Violet: Described as timid, and it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance.

And that's roughly where we left it before that thread was locked.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 4th 2019 at 7:53:07 AM

Nombretomado's final message in that thread:

To be candid, it feels like you are trying to poke holes in the decision the mod team has made. A good faith effort can be made to keep character sheets from being too speculative. Citing sources on pre-release examples can be implemented reasonably. You do not have to participate in the clean-up thread, particularly if you feel that the policy detailed above is not clear enough for you to make solid discernment on what crosses the line into unfounded speculation.

The mod team has decided that the standard I proposed— that works should not be troped pre-release at all— is not the one the wiki will use. Fair enough.

I am attempting to explore what standard the wiki will be using to discern between "founded" and "unfounded" speculation on pre-release works.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 4th 2019 at 7:58:58 AM

I'm confused: is the decision to handle locking prerelease pages on a case-by-case basis intended to apply to YMMV tropes too? Because if so that doesn't feel right, given that opinions on whether prerelease troping was problematic differed a lot between main and YMMV pages.

Case-by-case is for all troping, including YMMV.

So YMMV pages for pre-release works will not be locked preemptively as a matter of policy?

If that's the case, since the policy thread was locked before I could say anything there, I want to just take a moment to register my strongest possible disagreement with the mods on that decision. I'm aware that debating policy is not the point of this thread and won't try and argue any further - I simply don't want to even imply that I think the current status quo works.

@High Crate: Sobble is described as "somewhat timid" on the official website.

Considering the new policy, does that mean VideoGame.Pokemon Sword And Shield will be unlocked anytime soon?

I'm not too fond of the YMMV ruling either, since I genuinely don't understand how anything (except for maybe one or two audience reactions) can be valid pre-release. YMMV pages seem to be, by far, the worst of these sorts of pages.

I guess it's too late to do anything about it though, so we'll just have to stay vigilant.

And I assume that "it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance" is from the trailer? In that case it could be rewritten to something like:

• Shrinking Violet: The official website describes it as timid, and it immediately hides away in fright just from Grookey's entrance in the announcement trailer.

Does that look accurate?

Yep.

The Pokémon Sword and Shield page's trope list begins with

I'm not fond of this, as this makes it look like the page is for the trailer and not the game(s). Of course, the only material we can trope is from trailers, promotional material, and the occasional Word of God, but the page is still about the work.

Change this to a standard "Tropes associated with this work:" header or no?

While I do think it should be changed to the standard "Tropes associated with this work:" header, I wouldn't be against leaving it as a compromise, with the understanding that we'll change it upon release. I'm just worried we'll forget to change it on release, since it's easy to forget about the header.

Would a commented out notice help with that?

@RallyBot2 that was a remnant of the pagemove drama I sparked when I changed the main page's namespace a few days ago (which was reverted). The header should be reverted per Nombretomato's decision.

Edited by Albert3105 on Mar 5th 2019 at 7:43:47 AM

I scrubbed Captain Marvel (2019) to provide a clean slate for when people start pouring in 8 March. A couple of casting examples and meta-plot tropes qualify as part of the movie proper, so I left them alone. I'd appreciate a second set of eyes or more to repair any of my mistakes.

I question the following from Captain Marvel (2019):

• Mythology Gag:
  • Set photos show Carol and her Kree teammates in a palette-swapped version of her Captain Marvel uniform that's green and black rather than her iconic red and blue. The green outfit is a nice echo of Mar-Vell's very first (green and white) uniform as well as that of his Ultimate version.
  • The trailers show Carol's uniform comes with a retractable helmet that resembles her comic book mask, complete with white Glowing Eyes.
  • Carol's cat appears in the bottom left corner of the official poster.

What's the "gag" in an adaptation using elements of the work it's adapting? Looks like shoehorning to me.

Edit: Also this:

• Super Hero Origin: The trailers show an In Medias Res storyline, beginning with her arrival on Earth. Current events are interspersed with Flashbacks; the memories of Carol-as-human, Carol-in-training, and Carol-the-superhero. The audience will learn of Carol's origins because she's trying to remember them.

This trailers imply this, but Trailers Always Lie. In particular, trailers often show things out-of-order or out-of-context. This strikes me as overly speculative, even by the standards of this thread.

And these:

• Cuteness Proximity: The December trailer shows Nick Fury (who had been shown to be calm, intelligent, and business-like) gushing and making baby-talk when he encounters a ginger tabby.

• Kindhearted Cat Lover: The December trailer shows Nick Fury turn to emotional goo when he finds a ginger tabby.

We don't know if Nick Fury in this movie is the same calm, intelligent, and businesslike person he is in the other MCU films. It's a prequel after all; he could be brash and emotional at this point in his life for all we know. Likewise, we don't know if he's "kindhearted" in the way that Kindhearted Cat Lover requires.

Motion to delete.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 5th 2019 at 5:14:44 AM

Should we make a sandbox for Pokémon, considering the scope of the requested changes? Better than trying to make them all at once.

I'm not a fan of having examples that read "The trailers show that...". It creates a bunch of text that will sound dated once the work comes out, since in a majority of cases, a trope that is in the trailers will also be in the final work. It's like a lesser version of Examples Are Not Recent.

Sure.

• Film.The Lion King 2019
• Film.Captain Marvel 2019
• WesternAnimation.Wizards 2019
• Film.Godzilla King Of The Monsters 2019
• Film.Wonder Woman 1984
• Film.Yesterday 2019
• Westernanimation.Amphibia
• Anime.Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution

• Westernanimation.The Owl House

Edited by crazysamaritan on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:11:12 AM

Film.Hellboy 2019 is another unreleased work. I haven't been following the production of this movie, so I don't know what's actually been announced and what is just speculation.

I also made a page for an unreleased indie game awhile ago: VideoGame.Kyle And Lucy Wonderworld. There's a playable demo, and most of the tropes I included are from that, the rest are based on promotional material.

I created Sandbox.Future Works as an index.

Wizards 2019 has two entries on it.

One is a Foreshadowing entry that has too little context. It doesn't say what is being foreshadowed. Even if it turns out to be legit, it will belong on the page of the work where the foreshadowing happens, not the page of the work being foreshadowed.

The other is written in the future tense, implying Speculative Troping.

The page has no legit examples, and would fall short of the three-example minimum anyway.

Motion to cutlist.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:13:40 AM

Agreed, if we don't even have a trailer, just a poster, it's too early to have a page.

The The Movie entry is a Zero-Context Example. The Movie isn't just any movie based on a TV series; it must be in continuity with the series, or else it's either a Non-Serial Movie (if it's a new story but non-canon) or The Film of the Series (if it's a new adaptation of the same story as the series).

If it's true that "Nothing else is known about the film beyond Sunmin Image Pictures serving as the animation production house," then we don't know which trope applies, meaning that listing The Movie is Speculative Troping.

The other two seem fine, but that does bring it below the three-example minimum, which would mean it should be cutlisted as well.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:42:31 AM

The Owl House has five entries, all of which have problems:

• Ambiguously Brown: Luz, though her name suggests that she's of some kind of Hispanic or Portuguese extraction. We don't know that she's "ambiguously" brown. For all we know her specific nationality is a plot point. Speculative Troping
• Animesque: The artstyle, of course. Zero-Context Example, of course.
• Hell: The main setting. ZCE
• Hot Witch: Eda is a voluptuous witch. ZCE - "Trope happens"
• Trapped in Another World: An ordinary girl is accidentally transported to a Magical Land. ZCE - "Trope happens"

Motion to cutlist, unless there's enough information out there to fix three or more of the ZCEs.

Edited by HighCrate on Mar 10th 2019 at 4:45:10 AM