During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Woagh
Alright, I'm feeling better than I was the last few days, time to pull an MGD:
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Angel, Shade, Turtlecon, Larry, Ryuken, Johnno, Red, Nobunaga, Ranmaru, Ryuga, Mysterio, Julie, Mario, False Face, Blaze, Kun, Zelda, Ekdal, Puzzler, Siren, Catwoman, Dan, Steelix, Hazeldine, Elster and Nick
Keep Dracula
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Marie, Cohaagen, Orbot and Nicky
Buzz
to Nick. I was literally just drafting an EP for him in my to do list. Oh well
Could Jack Warden from Bridge on the River Kwai count? to make his plan to take down the bridge work, he tricks William Holden character into returning to the place where he was held captive
Edited by Paperfly on Jul 20th 2022 at 11:40:10 AM
Image Pickin' Backlog
Goku Black
Mr. Nick/Satan.
I'm focused on Fist if you'd like the wrietup Paper!
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Nick.
Goku Black
Anyway this is the one Im iffiest on for Motws from Power rangers time force. But hey worth a shot after Riley gave me second opinions.
Who is Dash?
This one is from The Last Race.
Dash is a racecar driver themed mutant (their is no and I mean no theme running for these monsters leading to all sorts of random stuff) who used to be friends with Blue Ranger Lucas. However Dash became reckless and ended up getting into an accident which caused Lucas to testify against him, leading him to get locked in Cryoprison.
Released by Nadira after two years, Dash helps her orchestrate daring gateway escapes. From expertly dodging incoming cars to making just the right squeeze in between a cord ended off area. He even jumps over a car to lose them.
Anyways he disguises himself as a human with Nadira and goes to check out the city. While Nadira is briefly distracted, he sneaks away from her and heads to a restaurant and makes contact with Lucas. Their he reveals he's kinda pissed about the whole testifying against him and getting him turned into a self-aware action figure for two years. He request they have one last race as their both even to show who's the better driver.
Anyway they do it after Dash tricks him into it by forcing his hand to have to go up against him. And hey Dash was actually winning until Lucas stops it when he's about to hit a group of kid pedestrians. This forces a Heel Reelization in Dash and he acknowledges that what he's done is wrong and asks Lucas to take him in. He abandons Nadira as he's no ones Chaoufer but she brute forces mind control armour onto him, forcing a fight with the rangers. The rangers destroy his armour and free him and Dash accepts his defeat and asks that Lucas take him in as he's ready to pay for what he's done. A flashforward shows hey it worked as he lives out his sentence and is now a star Race Car driver again.
Magnificent?
He's slick and cool. A legit Noble Demon and rather awesome.
He can think off strategic driving decisions on the fly. Used his disguise to specially sneak away from Nadira so he can communicate with Lucas. And forces him to the race. Heck he was even going to win as he was that good. It might be partly since its literally a near one to one copy of his sentai episode where he's also listed but hey .
Okay so uh one thing to note is that unlike the Sentai, who ultimately breaks the brainwashing of his own willpower, he doesn't here but the episode also alters him getting somewhat Out-Gambitted by Nadira to her basically brute-forcing him into service so it evens out. And his defeat is insanely graceful, acknowledging what's he's done is wrong and letting himself be taken in.
Bastard?
He's a thief sure but nothing worse
Conclusion?
You know I think he makes it.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Nick and Dash.
Based on wikipedia I feel like Warden might be dark enough.
I think Julie now has the upvotes since some people switched there votes and will write her up later.
Since there've been a few robots proposed lately I'd like to repost an edited version of my Hot Wheels: AcceleRacers entry about the Silencerz with an emphasis on Gig the robot. Major changes are in bold.
Gig
Gig is introduced recruiting Vert, Kurt, and Taro to retun to working for Tea after the World Race movie and they bring a lot of their fellow drivers from their new racing clubs along. After that', he gets in a few snarky comment s (like asking why one of the racing club thinks a race is the right way to chase a leader), showing discomfort about Tezla’s paranoia (sounding humanly hurt when eh says Tezla doesn't trust anyone, not even the ones he should) and acting like The Reliable One until the reveal, although he also helps Tezla hide important things from the drivers. He does get an arrogant moment talking about the Droness, saying as robots, they’re perfect. Through it all, he is a spy doing things like sending the Silencerz a holo copy of the Wheel of Power so they can enter the realms.'''
. When Gig’s loyalty to the Silencerz is revealed, a masked Jack shows up (with all the S Ilencerz accelechargers in his car) and catches Lani about to expose Gig. Jack is there to pick up Tezla’s drivers accelechargers but Gig promises he isn't there to hurt Lani, who Gig has worked alongside for the last three movies. They are interrupted when Gelorum leads an attack on Tezla’s base. Lani, Gig, and both groups’ accelechargers, although Jack turns invisible to hide in time.
He tells Tezla about how he's been a spy ad repgramemd Tezla's power suit to make him steal accelechargers while he slept and might be gloating when her talks about how he was impervious to Tezla's reprogramming, as he also views Tezla as a thief for taking him and so much tech from the Silencerz. When Gelorum is destroyed and the racing drones yell to destroy all the humans, Gig quickly reminds them he's not a human and is shoved out of the way, only to shock that drone in the back seconds later. As Lani and Tezla gape, he says "I suggest we use this opportunity to escape.'
Gig decides as a machine he’s expendable when Tezla wants to blow up the place in a Heroic Sacrifice (although that may be due to his programming to value human life more, makes Tezla leave by hacking into his exosuit again. He tells Lani it's pointlesss to argue with a machine to make her go, then warns the remaining Silencerz there to escape. Vert, fleeing through the portal and thinking he’s returning to the acccelerons while unaware of the plan to destroy the building, obliviously says he wishes Gig was with him and Gig seems sad as he says he wishes that to and sets the explosion.
Magnificent
He does an excellent job of spying unsuspected and getting tech, including the prized accelechargers, for his true masters. He doesn't want to hurt Lani and comforts her about this during his betrayal. He acts like a coward to shock the drone in the back and rescue the others with a catchy one-liner. He sacrifices himself despite not wanting to and having an opportunity to just let Tezla do it, and despite his betrayal seems to hold the scientist in some amount of regard. His last words to Vert are wistful but kind of friendly.
Bastard
He abuses Tezla's trust at times while helping him egg on to play mind games with the drivers at others.
Stealing the accelechargers could have endangered the drivers when they went into realms thinking they had them.
Edited by Melinda on Jul 21st 2022 at 7:10:01 AM
As I said before, I think Dash keeps.
to mr Nick and Dash
Nick, Dash, & Gig
Yes to Gig, Nick and Dash.
Yes to Gig and Nick.
Anyone mind if I call Chainsaw Man Part 2 here? I don't see anyone's name on it. 100% open to collabs if anyone else is interested.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jul 21st 2022 at 11:57:29 AM
Lizzid people!
Would it be out of line to give Nero Wolfe an ep? He is the hero and is a good man on many levels but his greed and the sheer ruthlessness of some of his Bluffing the Murderer and Leave Behind a Pistol ploys might qualify him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Anyone mind if I discuss Thor: Love and Thunder possibly in a few hours?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Gig.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Do it. I'm sure a lot of us are excited.
Gig.
The film was released on a Friday, but I don't have a problem with you discussing a day early. Still it is a major release.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lizzid people!
Sure, would hear it out.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, that's why I asked.
All I'll say for now is, there is a candidate. I'm working on the EP, but Jackie kindly agreed to look over it, so depending on when that happens, I'll either post the EP tonight or tomorrow morning.
I also have another EP I gotta do; one I've been putting off for WAY too long; and one possibility.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
for Dash and Gig.
So like I said in the CM forum, the trailer for Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves just dropped. I know about the stigma of game adaptations but I'm a sucker for fantasy, and I'm one of the people who enjoyed Warcraft (2016) quite a bit despite its flaws.
So I'm gonna snag this. Feel free to let me know if you wanna collab.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Gig and Dash
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, let's do this. Spoilers follow.
So, Thor: Love and Thunder. Let's talk Gorr the God Butcher. Thanks to Jackie for reading over this (and for planting the idea that Gorr was an MB). And it's been nearly 2 weeks since I saw the film, so apologies if I have anything wrong (I used the MCU wiki to help refresh my memory and fill in any blanks).
Who Is Gorr?
Gorr was just a simple man, who prayed to his planet's gods. However, he and his progressively-weakening young daughter eventually are the only ones who remain. After his daughter dies, Gorr ends up seeing his god Rapu, who just mocks him, and tries to kill him when Gorr renounces him. However, the Necrosword—a weapon which can kill gods—chooses (brainwashes? I'm still not ENTIRELY clear on this) Gorr, who uses the sword to kill the god.
Gorr, who now believes that all gods deserve to die, plans to kill all gods.
After killing several gods, he attacks New Asgard. Noticing that Thor has the Stormbreaker axe—which can activate the Bifrost, Gorr tries to take it, but is stopped. However, he later uses Shadow Monsters to kidnap the children, which he uses to lure Thor to the Shadow Realm.
This is a trap, as Gorr has hidden the kids elsewhere. When Jane Foster, realizing Stormbreaker is the key to Eternity (which if located can grant anyone's wish), throws it away, but Gorr chokes Jane to force Thor to recall it.
During the ensuing battle, Valkyrie gets injured, so Thor calls a retreat; however, Gorr manages to grab Stormbreaker.
Eventually, during the final battle, Jane manages to use Mjolnir to destroy the Necrosword, fatally wounding Gorr (and un-corrupting him?). However, Gorr manages to get to Eternity. Thor manages to convince Gorr that what he really wants is love, and Gorr, realizing Thor's correct, and seeing how he treats Jane (whose cancer was worsened by Mjolnir, eventually killing her), wishes instead to have his daughter brought back to life. He dies happy, and Thor unhesitatingly agrees to raise her.
Magnificent?
Oh yes. Between discovering Eternity, kidnapping the New Asgard children, using the kids to lure Thor and company, hiding the kids and setting up a trap to get Stormbreaker, and actually GETTING Stormbreaker, the answer is yes.
Also, quoting Jackie: "The Necrosword only encouraged him to enact his revenge scheme against the gods (considering how he was already angry with Rapu telling him off at the beginning, the sword only added to that) and that even if he was brainwashed, Gorr's still very much in control from beginning to end."
Finally, and crucially, GORR WINS. If Thor hadn't convinced him that all he wanted was love, and he hadn't been convinced by Thor's love for a dying Jane, all the gods would indeed have been killed.
Bastard? Too much?
I mean, he wants to kill all gods, and I wonder if his not caring if the children die makes him TOO much.
That said, once freed from the control (?) of the Necrosword, Thor convinces him that all he wants is love, and he wishes his daughter back, dying happy while telling Thor to take care of her. (Fun fact: Gorr's daughter is played by Chris Hemsworth's real daughter.)
And considering his backstory, his motivation is understandable, if excessive.
Conclusion?
The second Thor movie gave me my first MCU CM in Malekith; will the 4th give me my first MCU MB?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Nick.
Feels good, don't it?