During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yeah Janice doesn’t really seem to meet the parts of Magnificent Bastard, especially since all she does in the end is copy Ami and Yumi’s appearances
Yeah the kids show argument Austin brought up doesn't hold up because all of the other keepers in the show do much worse and aren't as mundane in their deeds.
Lizzid people!
You really needed to point out that argument I made?
But, anyway, I'm fine with the removal.
Yeah; just irritated that he had to bring up a minor point I made; you don't have to agree, but you don't have to put me on the line there.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Sorry, not meant to be directed at you.
Edited by AustinDR on Dec 5th 2021 at 6:54:49 AM
@ 43110, I can be overly cautious sometimes with who I propose.
Okay here goes:
What is the work?
Carcerem is a fantasy podcast featuring actors like Jane Lynch and voice actors like Rob Paulsen, Richard Steven Horvitz, and Maurice La Marche. In the kingdom of Aura, magic is outlawed and the land is ruled by an army of Vigils, soldiers who kill magic users. Magic users are blamed for the presence of the Corrupted, beasts who attack people on sight. There are several prophecies about a Chosen One will defeat the Vigils and the Corrupted and bring peace to the land. This EP is about one of those Vigils...
Who is Vorlauf? What has he done?
Vorlauf is a Vigil captain, as a child, he and his friend Dianna wandered the woods and found the fabled city of Carcerem, but it was surrounded by an army of zombies, commanded by a wicked mage named Ivan. Ivan killed Dianna and turned her into a zombie played a sadistic game with Vorlauf, if he can escape his zombies he can go free, if it fails, the zombies will take some of his flesh. Vorlauf tries and fails to escape the zombies a couple of times, with the zombies taking some of his flesh, eventually Vorlauf escapes the zombies and vows to become a Vigil.
Several years later Vorlauf is a Vigil captain, who always looks out for his friends and those under his command, but also will kill any magic-user can find. One of his friends wanted to sponsor another friend to become a Vigil, so Vorlauf sponsors him instead, knowing that a Vigil will kill any Vigil they sponsor that proves corrupt and breaks the code. When this new Vigil turns out to be corrupt, Vorlauf kills him.
After a bar fight, where the main hero, a young woman named Ora steals a prophecy from a bar, and the fight results in someone's death, Vorlauf decides to investigate. However, the Sheriff refuses to show up at the bar and has to deal with one of his deputies, who doesn't want to summon the Sheriff to the bar, so Vorlauf decides to play a game with him, he will throw knives at the deputy until he summons the Sheriff, which works.
Vorlauf believes Ora is heading to the tournament where various would-be-chosen ones bring their prophecies and fight for the amusement of the crowd. Vorlauf is of course correct and finds Ora trying to steal several of the prophecies. Convinced she is a magic-user, Vorlauf attacks her, but Vorlauf is correct, Ora is a magic user and defeats him with a magical attack.
At the tournament, after many of the would-be chosen ones have killed each other, Ivan turns the dead into zombies and has them attack the crowd, one of Vorlauf's Vigils is killed by the zombies, making things personal. The zombies eventually head to Carcerem and Vorlauf and his Vigils follow them.
Vorlauf finds Ora and her allies trying to get past the zombies and get to Carcerem. Vorlauf makes a deal, they will work together and defeat the zombies and kill Ivan and after Ivan is dead, neither said will attack each other for 3 days. One of Vorlauf's Vigils Linus flees his post, making things harder. Vorlauf comes up with a plan to defeat the zombies and kill Ivan, but Ora and her chaotic allies have trouble following his plan, so eventually, Vorlauf gives up in frustration, making a strategic retreat with his remaining Vigil, Ann.
Ora and her allies manage to kill Ivan and enter Carcerem but it turns out the prophecies were being produced by two drunken con men in Carcerem, who simply wanted someone to kill all the zombies so they could leave (one of the con men sounds exactly like Pinky). Also, an army of Vigils is now heading to Carcerem, so it seems like Vorlauf went back on his word, taking his vow to destroy magic as more important than honoring his deal with Ora.
Is he magnificent?
I think he is a very clever and dogged investigator, following the clues to discover where Ora is going and is able to spot Vigils who could be corrupt and sponsors them himself so he can take them out, rather than having his friend have to do that. He is jovial, wise, and soft-spoken and always tries to take care of his men.
Is he bastard?
He will kill any magic-user he finds, he will kill Vigils who break the code and played that knife game with the Sheriff's deputy.
He seemingly went back on his word with Ora, seemingly deciding his vows trumped his deal with Ora. It's also the smart play, if Vorlauf thinks Ora and her allies are incapable of dealing with Ivan, leaving and returning with an army of Vigils makes sense.
Final Verdict?
He may count.
Edited by Overlord on Dec 5th 2021 at 7:01:53 AM
Lizzid people!
Leaning towards a "yes" for Vorlauf.
Yes to Vorlauf. Not sure yet on Janice.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lex, Marvelous and Clark
Cut Janice
Is Vorlauf' s arc still ongoing?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well season 1 of the podcast concluded in April of this year and I am not sure when season 2 will start, it may be ongoing, but I think it may take a while to get season 2.
In that case
Vorlauf.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Janice. How'd she get approved anyway?
Somebody made an effortpost for her. I do not appreciate questioning her being approved as if it's crazy, even though I am a current downvote.
I would like to here what ~The Real Jackie Boy has to say, given that he EP'd her.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Sorry, I was just curious.
Well I just noticed something weird on the Star Trek page: Sybok should be between Kruge and Chang and yet he's between Chang and Soran instead. Kruge is in III, Sybok is in V, Chang is in VI and Soran is in Generations (which is VII). Feel free to fix whenever.
The Moron
I'm kinda curious, how do we feel about this quote from Star Trek Into Darkness about Khan himself?
Spock Prime: (Beat) As you know, I have made a vow never to give you information that could potentially alter your destiny. Your path is yours to walk and yours alone. That being said, Khan Noonien Singh is the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced. He is brilliant, ruthless, and he will not hesitate to kill every single one of you.
Spock: Did you defeat him?
Spock Prime: At great cost, yes.
Goku Black
vorlaf.
Professor Gigachad
I finally got around to creating that MB Numbers Per Page page. It is interesting to see how high the Buffyverse and Disney is our number one.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
@STAR Tricky thing is, that still refers to Khan Prime. Kelvin Khan also being capable of being connected to it is incidental. That was one of the ones I thought of myself too though.
Had a thought. Lost it.
A while ago, I proposed Zodiac, the Big Bad of Seven Star Fighting God Guyferd, for Complete Monster and got him approved. I now believe Zodiac might be a contender for Magnificent Bastard as well. CM-MB crossovers will always be contentious and I don't expect Zodiac to be an exception, but I do believe he's worth considering so I ask you all to read my proposal with an open mind.
What is the work?
Seven Star Fighting God Guyferd follows Gou Kazama, a martial artist trained in Ken'nou-ryu karate who returns to Japan after traveling abroad to find his older brother Masato has gone missing. Soon after, he's kidnapped by Crown, an evil organization experimenting on people using an Applied Phlebotinum called "Fallah" with the goal of creating the ultimate warrior, and converted into a cyborg. However, Gou manages to escape and, having been exposed to Fallah while on his travels, channels it in tandem with his cybernetic implants to become a hero called "Guyferd" and fight against Crown.
Who is the villain?
Zodiac, the leader of Crown. Zodiac was one the leader of an expedition team that first discovered Fallah in Peru. After becoming mutated by it and witnessing it turn the rest of the team into monsters that killed each other, Zodiac formed Crown to research its mutagenic properties. Seeing humanity as an irrational species prone to war and destruction of the environment, Zodiac sought to use Fallah to realize his vision of evolving humanity into a superior species.
What does he do?
Zodiac spends the first third of the show offscreen, giving orders to the public leader of Crown, Mr. Bicross, and using Crown to recruit unwitting scientists to research Fallah. After Guyferd defeats all of the Mutians Crown developed, including Bicross, and the Crown researcher Shion develops a way to fuse Fallah and cybernetics to create warriors similar to Guyferd, Zodiac gives secret orders to Shion to blow up the Mutian Lab and recalls her to another Crown cell headed by his lieutenant Metal Master.
Zodiac then has Shion lure Gou to him, where he actually makes an attempt to reach out to Gou and convince him of his Humans Are Bastards worldview. Gou, being The Hero, refuses Zodiac's offer to join him, but you do have to commend him for making the effort.
Zodiac's plan over the second third involves him sending out Metalferds (the Evil Knockoffs Shion made of Guyferd) to gather resources for his big plan, to construct a computer system to spread Fallah across the globe and mutate everyone into a new species that lacks humanity's vices. After Shion dies distracting Gou and co. while Metal Master steals the remaining materials needed for the system, Zodiac has Metal Master extract her brain to use as a nexus for it.
Guyferd manages to thwart Zodiac's plan, but it turns out that Zodiac actually had a backup plan in the works already, that being to obtain the Gaia Net, an ancient Artifact of Doom, which is capable of wiping out humankind and creating an entirely new species from scratch to supplant them. Needing three separate artifacts to complete the Gaia Net, Zodiac sends out his Gaia Soldiers (which are Metalferds he upgraded using a different artifact) to gather the three objects needed to activate the Gaia Net. His henchmen manage to obtain the first two, but the third (the Dragon Crystal) is found by Gou first and merges with him.
To make matters worse for Zodiac, Gou's brother and rival, Masato/Deathferd, comes out of hiding and teams up with Gou against him. Zodiac doesn't let this slow him down however and sends out his final Gaia Soldier Valcanon to kidnap Gou so they can extract the Dragon Crystal from him. Valcanon injures Gou's friend Rei, causing him to use part of his life force to heal her but weakening him in the process. While Valcanon fights Masato, Zodiac takes advantage of Gou's weakened state and takes to the field personally to kidnap him. He then brings Gou to his lair and hooks him up to the Gaia Net to use the Dragon Crystal within him to complete it. Of course, Masato and Gou's friends go to rescue him, at which point Zodiac steps out into the field again to deal with them. Masato becomes Deathferd to hold Zodiac off but Zodiac is able to easily overwhelm him until Gou is freed and joins Deathferd in fighting Zodiac. Zodiac is beaten by the two brothers, but takes his death in stride and proclaims to the brothers that the Gaia Net will still be in motion without him, and it can't be stopped, before dying in a defeat-caused-explosion.
Is he magnificent?
Zodiac is shown to be a pretty competent planner, setting multiple plans in motion at once. He has some pretty grandiose goals, but he does appear to believe in his cause to an extent and doesn't let himself get side-tracked. While he isn't above taunting his foes, he doesn't display any sadism at all and keeps a level head on himself. He's cold and willing to make sacrifices, but in a solely pragmatic sort of way. He's also quite hammy, which is a given since he's played by Shōzō Iizuka. He does appear to have a bit of an ego about him, but it isn't given much focus, and given how Guyferd is a campy superhero show about People in Rubber Suits, his boasting just comes off as him being a badass. He also gets a lot of points for taking his death in stride. When he's defeated by the heroes, he doesn't let out a This Cannot Be! or anything like that, he simply points out that the Gaia Net will still be running without him before letting out a hearty Evil Laugh and dying.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Alright let's address the elephant in the room. Obviously, Zodiac is very much a bastard, but he doesn't go into any territory that's especially underhanded or depraved. He's a Complete Monster, but mostly by default on having the biggest Evil Plan in the show, and lacking any obvious redeeming qualities. As I mentioned above he's also not sadistic at all. His attempts to supplant humanity with a new species are driven by ideology, rather than any sort of lust for destruction. He also gets a lot of points awarded to him by being a cool Evil Overlord in a campy superhero Fighting Series. The fantastical mechanisms his schemes rely on also mitigate the horror of them quite a bit.
Final Verdict
I'll leave that up to you fine ladies and gentlemen.
For reference, here's my CM proposal for Zodiac: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=11591#comment-289752
I did make an error when writing it however. I said Zodiac wiped out his research team with Fallah. I rewatched the episode that details it again and there's no indication Zodiac actually did so. It's entirely likely that the other researchers were just mutated by exposure to Fallah and killed each other all on their own.
Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Dec 6th 2021 at 12:05:26 PM
Just imagine something here.
Zodiac. Doesn't seem too vile.
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Dec 6th 2021 at 1:15:06 AM
I'm fine with Zodiac
Wish Granter write-up:
- Snow White: The Fairest of Them All: The Granter of Wishes is an ancient sorcerer imprisoned within ice who is accidentally freed by John, the father of Snow White, where a grateful Wish Granter offers to grant any of John's wishes. However when John wishes for the return of his late wife, his "queen", Wish Granter states he cannot resurrect the dead, but can give him a queen. Magically turning John into a king with his own kingdom, Wish Granter turns his sister Elspeth into a beautiful queen for John to marry. Elspeth however turns out to be a Vain Sorceress who attempts to murder Snow for overtaking her as Fairest of Them All, while enchanting or killing many others who get in her way. Seeing how vile his sister is, the Wish Granter strips Elspeth of her beauty as punishment, and then calmly departs leaving Elspeth to her fate of being killed by her now freed and vengeful victims.
to Zodiac
In regards to Janice, it really seems like all she did is make Ami and Yumi feel bad for stealing her boyfriend and then win him back. Manipulative or not, I don’t think that’s bad enough. Cut.
Sure to Zodiac and Vorlaf. Cut Janice.
Here's my current draft for Captain Marvelous's writeup.
- Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger: Captain Marvelous/GokaiRed is The Leader of the Gokaigers. Once a member of the Red Pirate Gang that collected the Ranger Keys, after Basco betrayed the group and tried to steal them for himself, Marvelous took the Ranger Keys and formed the Gokaigers to go to Earth and find the Greatest Treasure in the Universe first. Starting out greedy and self-interested, Marvelous and his crew come to blows with the Zangyack Empire when they invade again while gathering the Greater Powers from various Sentai. After pulling off a risky move to kill Basco and obtaining the last of the Sentai Greater Powers, Marvelous finally obtains the Greatest Treasure in the Universe but destroys it after learning it will take away the powers of the Sentai if used. Marvelous then leads the Gokaigers in a final battle to defeat Zangyack and defend the Earth, having become a true hero through what he learned from the Super Sentai, even if he'll never admit it.
Just imagine something here.