During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I'm with Polar here regarding the candidate that you want to bring @Awesome Kid 42
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Hendricks.
Sorry, Awesome, missed your question but depending on how it's played, I can see them actually gaining magnificence points for it. Go for it!
to Hendricks
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
All right, since someone jotted down Kulipari: An Army of Frogs on this list...apparently (or they just copy/pasted the entire list from the Discussion Dates list for a Complete Monster over here, which is the more likely answer) I may as well talk about Killara.
So Killara is a master at Xanatos Speed Chess. Season 2 fully shows that Killara will do anything and everything he can to achieve his goals. Work alongside the heroes and then immediately backstab them, reevaluate attack plans if a new situation arises, and assist his cronies whenever the time calls for it. That being said, when his Co-Dragons Nogo and Skink are trying to keep Lord Darkan subdued after he finally steals his precious pearl from him, what does Killara do?
Run away.
Nogo and Skink end up captured by Darkan while they're screaming for Killara to help him. He clearly hears their screams and looks like he's about to go back. Then he looks at his pearl and smirks before saying "Worth it." And then he leaves. On top of that, it turns out that Killara got outsmarted; the pearl he stole was nothing more than a ball of sand that had been created to look like a pearl through means of nightcasting magic, or something of that nature.
Soooooooo I don't think Killara counts. In Season 1? Hell yeah. But now that Season 2 has fleshed out his character more, I feel like he's less of a Magnificent Bastard, and more of just a Bastard. He seems to be a very, very high-functioning Smug Snake at this point.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Goku Black
Hendricks
Lord of Hell
Welp, here’s the effort post for the candidate I was wondering about.
What’s the work?
Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a sitcom about a unit of detectives who are stationed at the 99th precinct of Brooklyn. It’s two most important characters are Bunny-Ears Lawyer and Manchild Jake Peralta, and The Comically Serious but Not So Stoic Captain Holt. Their differing personalities initially put them at odds with each other but the two bond as time goes on, Jake eventually viewing Holt as a surrogate father.
The episode The Box is quite a different episode from most in the series. Jake and Holt are the only main characters of the cast with prominence (Gina and Boyle appear for a few seconds at the beginning and end respectively) and there’s no subplots. Not much time outside the building either. Rather, the large majority of the episode is spent on Jake and Holt interrogating our candidate, Philip Davidson.
Who is he? What does he do?
Philip Davidson is a dentist who was addicted to Diazepam and was caught stealing pills by his boss, Frank Tupper. Tupper confronted Davidson about it in private, but Davidson led Tupper to the surgical room to have the discussion. Davidson then killed Tupper with a rod made out of a special dental polymer. He then melted down the rod (and apparently later put the remains in a dentist patients mouth in between the murder and when the body got discovered) leaving no evidence of a murder weapon. As there are constantly blood stains on the floor of the surgical suite, the blood didn’t look out of place to the people who regularly have it undergo industrial sterilization, removing all traces of blood and DNA. Davidson took Tupper’s body (using Tupper’s car instead of his to ensure nobody can report his car being driven towards the body site) near a secluded cabin owned by his uncle in the woods where there were no witnesses and buried it.
The body eventually got discovered by hikers, and after gathering information, Jake comes to the conclusion that it was Davidson as he was the only one in the area with no alibi and clear means to murder Tupper. However, as Davidson removed any traces of evidence, the District Attorney wasn’t willing to bring a charge. So Jake and Holt come up with various methods of interrogation to get him to slip up. First, when Davidson says that what he and Tupper talked about was just firing an assistant, Jake states that they found Tupper’s schedule on his computer (it was also on his cellphone, but Davidson deleted it) where it was scheduled to talk with Philip about stolen meds. However, Davidson lies and says that the reason they were talking about firing the assistant was because she stole meds, leaving Jake with no ammo.
Holt however took this as an opportunity to play “Smart Cop, Dumb Cop” where Jake will act completely incompetent while Holt takes over the case to lower Davidson’s guard. And at first, it seems to work as when Holt acts as if he’s taking a break and allowing Jake to take over to ask pointless and dumb questions (including asking the suspect “did you kill him”) Davidson slips and reveals he knows where the body was revealed when he says he hasn’t been to Vernon in 20 years (one of Jake’s questions was “have you ever been to where the body was found”) that information hasn’t been publicly revealed. Jake and Holt think they have Philip...until he lies and says that Tupper’s wife told him in grief about where the body was while he was comforting her, and ensures that asking her to confirm it won’t get any results by saying that she was distraught, and probably forgot telling him. Jake doesn’t buy it but with no proof to fully refute it, along with finding out that the story of the uncle owning a cabin that he hasn’t went to in years is true, Jake and Holt are left without ammo again.
Holt then has another idea to try and get Davidson angry by mocking the idea of dentists being referred to as doctors. This does slightly annoy Phillip, but he turns this around on Holt by arguing how professors have even less of a reason to be referred to as doctors, resulting in a humorous rant by Holt about how the original definition of doctor was one who owned a doctorate and how nobody cares about etymology, resulting in another brick wall.
After multiple more attempts that result in nothing, Davidson manages to stir up tension between Jake and Holt by bringing the discussion to argue how Holt doesn’t value Jake’s intelligence and needed to skip a party to micromanage Jake based off Holt’s tuxedo (it was an opera and Holt skipped of his own free will) Jake and Holt argue against this, but when Philip asks why Holt made Jake play dumb cop, Holt admits that he believes it would be more believable if Jake were to be play the dumb cop out of the two of them, offending Jake. Davidson stirs up tensions even more by asking Jake if all those strategies that were came up with were Jake’s ideas, knowing that all but one (a desperate attempt of Jake yelling while playing a guitar) were Holt’s.
Jake loses his cool (and humorously knocks himself out with a chair when he tries to throw it at a glass window to in a failed attempt to intimidate Davidson) and he and Holt discuss in private. They agree that it would be best if Jake takes a break to regain his composure...only for Jake to go to Philip and lie that a neighbor saw him go to the cabin on the night of the murder. Throughout the episode, Jake repeatedly suggested lying about being seen to try and get a confession out of Davidson, but Holt denied it as it was too risky and if Davidson knew they were lying, it would tell him they truly have nothing on him. And naturally, Davidson finds out that Jake was lying as there’s only one neighbor near the Uncle’s cabin, whose been dead for three years.
Davidson’s lawyer eventually comes, criticises the two for lying to try and convict Davidson, and that now that there’s no case, Davidson is free to go in the next 15 minutes, or a harassment claim will be filed against the precinct. It looks like Philip will get off scott-free...only for Jake to come up with an idea after he notices one of six glass trophies kept by Tupper has gone “missing” (Jake actually knows it wasn’t missing and how a maid accidentally broke it). He goes to Davidson and makes a deliberately wrong explanation for how Davidson carried out the murder, making it come off as Davidson being a careless fool who just got lucky. Davidson tries to compose himself as he knows that Jake is baiting him, but eventually is unable to contain his ego, preferring to confess to committing the perfect crime rather than being released if it would result in the detectives making him out as sloppy and impulsive.
How do his actions show how he’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Davidson is one of the only criminals in the show to not only leave no evidence of their crimes (even fellow Magnificent Bastard Doug Judy had evidence of crimes be traced back to him in some of his episodes) but to also play both Jake and Holt like a fiddle as he’s being interrogated by them. Even when he slips up due to the “Smart Cop Dumb Cop” routine Holt and Jake pull, he bounces back seconds later. And until his confession, he’s consistently a calm and collected Deadpan Snarker (and even during his confession, while angry, it’s not to the point of being a Villainous Breakdown)
Too much of a bastard?
Nah. While he has no redeeming qualities persay, he only kills one person.
Any other disqualifying factors?
Now, his ego did get the better of him, and led to Jake and Holt arresting him when if he kept his mouth shut, he would have been fine. Jake even says that Davidson felt a need to let the two know how smart he was. But he wasn’t really tricked. After confessing, he isn’t shocked or regretting what he said, just frustrated. It was evident that he knew Jake’s plan, but he went for it anyway. He was his own undoing, but by his own volition.
Final Thoughts?
Kinda conflicted. You guys?
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Dec 6th 2018 at 2:13:38 PM
Well either way I'll give you a formal welcome to this thread Tyk and ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
I think that's definitely a spill over from the good ol' CTRL+C, CTRL+V. Tbh I don't remember that character, or indeed much of season 1 but I trust your judgement, man.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Mmmm... now that I read how it plays out it sounds kinda like the tendency of a douchey Insufferable Genius. Hitting all the other marks but I'm not feeling it if he's drawn out by the chance to shout, "I'm so brilliant, I did the crime!"
Edited by 43110 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 1:33:32 PM
Having watch that episode I'm going to have to vote ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Davidson. Not only does Jake manages to trick Davidson into confessing by preying on his ego, when he does confess his crime does it in such an arrogant tone, which kinda kills the magnificence for me, making him across as a high-functioning Smug Snake
Oh, yeah, today's the day to discuss Spoderman's second DLC.
Um, not much to talk about, at least on my part. Felicia hasn't returned yet, if she even is coming back. Don't worry, if she doesn't come back in Part 3 I'm still gonna EP her. Other than her, no one I feel like discussing... but Fried Warthog has their own opinions on a particular villain, one I'm personally ambivalent about, but wouldn't be too upset if added.
Wow, who'd have thunk this game would be such a goldmine for MB's? Usually it's CM's who are more common.
EDIT: I'll abstain on Hendricks since it's been a long time since I've seen the film and I recall him being kind of... boring, really. But I ain't too broken up about him being added.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Dec 4th 2018 at 2:07:12 PM
Goku Black
Davidson
Davidson
By the way, I cut these the day before yesterday. The first is from Captain Underpants:
- Magnificent Bastard: A heroic example. Kindergardener George and Harold come up with a Batman Gambit to enact revenge on the bullies.
The second is from Dork Diaries:
- Magnificent Bitch: MacKenzie. Her way of ruining the school dance and getting back at Brandon for not taking her and managing to make Nikki look bad was actually pretty clever.
Edited by 11111001011 on Dec 4th 2018 at 3:23:30 PM
Good call on both and welcome to CM’s companion thread!
Goku Black
Oh Dork Diaries. My sister read that when she was like 12. I don't think anyone counts from there
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ovan draft:
- .hack//G.U.: Ovan was once an ordinary hacker playing The World who had the misfortune of getting possessed by AIDA, who forced him to put his sister Aina and other players into comas, becoming the notorious PKer Tri-Edge. To save Aina and the other Lost Ones, Ovan conspired to trigger the Rebirth by manipulating Haseo into fighting and defeating the seven other epitath users, including Ovan himself. Ovan effortlessly manipulates Haseo, the cruelly ambitious Sakaki, system administrators, the World's AI guardians, and even the AIDA possessing him, without revealing his identiy as Tri-Edge until he desires it. His plan to trigger the Rebirth goes off without a hitch and Ovan saves Aina and the Lost Ones at the cost of falling into a coma himself.
Davidson.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Hello, new here and while I probably won't be very active but I am still interested in it, will be on here on occasion.
Reading the rules I noticed how nowadays "The charachter must be a bastard". And the captain underpants example also had me thinking, should we perhaps make a heroic counterpart to this trope?(Especially if it's charachters like Dumbledore and such)
Edited by Kylotrope on Dec 4th 2018 at 7:19:47 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Kylotrope Guile Hero exists and it's a Heroic Counterpart of MB
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Aww okay!
I was aware of the trope but Always considered it to be the heroic counterpart to Manipulative Bastard but I suppose it Could be both(Though I do wonder, wouldn't the same reasons Manipulative Bastard and Magnificent Bastard are not the same apply there as well?)
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Alright, I've tried putting this off. I've tried to do as much research as possible, investigating into the material. Warhammer retcons its lore a whole hell of a lot, but it's time to go. May I introduce, the King of Kings.
Who is Settra the Imperishable? What does he do? Settra the Imperishable is known by many, many, many titles, between Begetter of the Begat and Majestic Emperor of the Shifting Sands. Only Nagash himself can ever hope to match his power amongst the Tomb Kings. Where the Vampires of the setting have Vlad von Carstein, Settra serves the same role.
Now, backstory. Settra desired power and the restoration of his drying, failing Kingdom in Nehekhara, and figured that there was one way to gain that power: Prayer. He swore to the Gods, had his people erect Temples to them, and, in a grand ritual, sacrificed his own children to them. (It bears mention Nehekhara was dying at the time, making him a WIE.) The Gods accepted the gift, and Khemri, his Kingdom, flooded the next day, granting the people water, and proving that Settra the Imperishable was indeed the Chosen of his Gods, as the Priest King of Khemri, wielding their very power for himself. Settra, in a sweeping campaign, effortlessly tore through every enemy army like tissue paper, and claimed every part of Nehekhara for himself and his Gods. He successfully achieved his goal: Under one ruler, Nehekhara was united. None dared face Settra, for those who did perished with but a flick of his finger.
Settra was ruthless, but he brought prosperity to his people. He did genuinely care about his Kingdom and his people. However, within himself, he found a desire for more. So, he spread out his force, and he began to effortlessly conquer more stuff. Like, a lot of stuff. He expanded Nehekhara's borders further and further, bringing back riches from even the Jungles of Lustria. And, Settra, upon turning forty, turned to the mountains and roared in pure rage, for he knew that he could not live forever, as he was but a man.
He founded the Mortuary Cult to exploit some serious Loophole Abuse on that, and they feared him so much that they dare not inform him that they could not give him immortality. Then, one day, he was finally embalmed, as he declared his hatred of death. In his great Pyramid, he was buried at last. His most loyal servants, who he cared for, were buried with him. His people granted him strong protections to keep him from being disturbed in his rest.
Unfortunately, Nagash exists. So, in a spell, the Tomb Kings were revived. Settra and his loyal ally Nekaph were brought back last. The Tomb Kings, all, saw their works destroyed, and found rage and sorrow at it. A war quickly broke out. Settra and Nekaph slew every rival to their line for good, turning their very bones to dust, and taking up control of Nehekhara. Every rival but one— Arkhan the Black. I've brought up Arkhan before, and Arkhan got away. Settra then exiled his Grand Hierophant, Khatep, for being the messenger of his troubles. This is one of his only two real Kick the Dog moments, both of which involve Khatep. Anyways, Settra ruled Nehekhara once more. Norscans attempted to invade, Settra showed them their place. However, one killed him for a decade or so, and he went out for vengeance. He and his army utterly kicked the shit out of Norsca, and took every last coin back. Every treasure was reclaimed, except Settra's own crown. So, Settra killed a lot more Norscans effortlessly, took back his crown, and killed a Dragon-Ogre Shaggoth on his own. Settra was victorious. He also indirectly created, and also fucked over, Nagash in several ways, causing a lot of people to die as well.
End Times? Settra is the epitome of "sticking to the old characterization" in the otherwise crap End Times, by refusing to serve the Chaos Gods or Nagash. Defiant to the End is the very definition of Settra the Imperishable. He loses, but he loses with such amazing style and dignity that the only bad factor is that he had Khatep executed for funsies after Khatep saved him.
Is he cool? Is he charismatic? Yes, and yes. Settra earned every title he has. He is a brilliant general, an amazing fighter, a huge case of Asskicking Equals Authority, and is both beloved and feared by his people. Between being basically able to conquer anyone he wanted, and only going to rage at the knowledge he would someday be stopped, not by anyone, but by age, a fundamental force of nature. And even then, he ended up coming back, albeit by accident. He took very little time to take back Nehekhara.
Is he a bastard? Too much? Yes. Settra is technically neutral, but Settra sacrificed his own kids, (For a good cause) conquers kingdoms and slays countless for funsies, and is generally the epitome of Evil Overlord. However, he's also the epitome of The Good King, and he genuinely cared for his people and his lieutenants. While he's petty at points, and his Tranquil Fury does lead him to shoot the messenger twice with Khatep, even when Khatep actually saved him, Settra is more of a cold You Have Failed Me type. Khatep was exiled, Settra slew him to lay down the law. He's definitely a bastard, but also a very nuanced and noble one.
Mitigating Factors? Okay, okay. Let's look at the obvious one: His ego. It's HUGE. Probably bigger than the egos of Archaon, Nagash, Vlad, Khazrak, Ungrim, Karl Franz, everyone else in the universe combined, basically. But, he's fucking earned that ego. Sure, he had to kill his kids to do it, but between his power and strategic genius, Settra's only true foe was, and has, ever been age (Well, and Chaos.) Settra, even when beaten, manages to come back. He's bloodthirsty and vengeful, but he can back it up so well that in the end, until the End Times, Settra was never truly threatened by anyone.
And, as for his Kick the Dog moments to Khatep, sacrifice of his children, (Again, he saw it as a necessary measure not for conquest, but to save his people) and his ruthlessness? Eh. It never really fucks over his plans, and, in the case of his kids, actually helps him achieve his goal. Settra's ego is never his undoing. Settra's next mitigating factor would be his perpetual rage. Settra bubbles with Tranquil Fury, but that's all it is. Tranquil Fury. He lets his anger fuel him rather than ruin him, and that's why he succeeds. He's never dragged down by his (admittedly childish) anger.
Also, he's a bit of a fantastic racist towards the living, but he's not unwilling to ally with them, and it's less racism and more that they're a constant reminder of what he wants back, so it's not truly an issue.
Conclusion?
This took me a long time to conclude on, especially since Settra can get seriously petty and ruthless (Killing his own kids, the ego, the anger, etc.) but ultimately Settra's so successful and smart through all of it that I'd say . Of course, anyone who tells the Chaos Gods where to stick it instantly gets a mark up in my book.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 4th 2018 at 8:23:18 AM
Settra looked Nagash in the eye and roared "Settra does not serve! SETTRA RULES!
Quoting 1d4chan?
" He tells Nagash he will claim his skull eventually, but only after killing the Chaos Gods for DARING to offer him immortality and the chance to conquer all realities in exchange for servitude. He then charges into battle against the Chaos monsters by himself, killing a giant for good measure. He's last seen fighting them as the world is consumed.
For those keeping score at home, that makes Settra the ONLY being in any Warhammer setting who was offered literally everything there is to be offered (everything that someone could want from the Chaos Gods such as money, power, even immortality and worship via becoming a Daemon Prince or even true Godhood as a minor Chaos God like the Horned Rat to name a few; he might even have gotten that immaculate living gold body and had the option of sex again he was promised), and instead chose to give Chaos the middle finger in response.
Because Settra does not serve. Settra rules."
The hell YES on him.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Yes to the king.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes to Settra.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
@Awesomekid 42: Hm. An interesting question to ask. Sometimes, dying for your pride is admirable - especially if it's more honour than pride. I guess you could EP them and see what we think.