During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
Not super familiar with Halo.
Star, lightly, lore. You guys are more familiar with it?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Moron
Yes to Stendahl - and great job on your first proposal ACW!
I don't know much about Silentium itself, but from the events the entry is referring to (and especially the gender neutral pronouns), I'm pretty sure it's talking about the already-approved Gravemind
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 24th 2021 at 5:53:34 AM
I hate spoilers
This is my write-up for Flashpoint Batman.
Thomas Wayne, in this timeline Flashpoint Batman, is the greatest tactician in the world. Upon being found by Barry Allen, he helps recreate the incident that helps Barry regain his powers, wanting to cause a timeline where his son is alive. After learning that Eobard Thawne is preventing The Flash from fixing the timeline, Batman teams up with Cyborg and others to find him while also contributing to the war effort. Despite being mortally wounded during the final battle, Batman sneaks up on Thawne and kills him while his back is turned. Before he succumbs to his wounds, Batman gives The Flash a letter to deliver to his son, not caring that he will die in the new timeline.
Everyone look at my sandbox
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Stendahl.
Yes to Jimmy, the imposter and Stendahl (great job on your first!)
Hey, folks, on vacation, but it was brought to my attention that True Blood has a Magnificent Bastard wick for Russell Edgington...who is, um...well, one redeeming quality away from the CM list. He's fiendishly clever and easily the most dangerous antagonist on the show for about 5 seasons, but...
He's like totally fucking insane. Entertaining as all hell, but royally fucking nuts and he outright proposes forced breeding of fairies to harness their blood so vampires can conquer the sun. Dennis O'Hare does an amazing job with him and he's easily one of the most enjoyable bad guys on that train wreck, but I don't think he comes close to this one. One of the few I can think of who might make it is Eric Northman, unless I'm forgetting some sort of sex crime somewhere in his screentime, which knowing this show is not impossible.
Showtime!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
sounds like a cut
Did we ever discuss Annabelle Cane, from the Magnus Archives?
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
to The Imposter and William Stendahl.
Library: We didn't. I was planning on getting around to her (along with a few others) after doing Magnus on the CM thread, but other things got in the way and I haven't yet relisted to the episodes.
I certainly agree she's a keeper if you want to propose her.
Goku Black
Btw for myths and legends in Other Media. Shouldn't Arthurian Legend be before Anasasi going off alphabetical order?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Showtime!
I'm relistening atm, so I can do her if you're willing to share
Of course, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Enjoy getting to listen to it all again. If you want to discuss anything any further just send me a message.
It should go between Akan-Ashanti and Aztec. I’ll get that this week.
The Moron
Alrighty then, taking a break from Angel, let's talk about something I didn't realize I needed in my life until I found it.
What is the work?
Westeros: An American Musical is, of all things on Earth, the story of Game of Thrones told via song parodies of songs from Hamilton - and it is as wonderful as a combo of those things sounds. It's an Affectionate Parody that alternates between telling the show's story to taking the absolute piss out of it, like when Roose goes to say "The Lannisters send their regards" at the Red Wedding, only for Catelyn (in the middle of dying) to ask why it's not "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" like in the book. It's hilarious is the main point, and being Westeros, there are plenty of schemers vying for power - but one of them, in a bit of a change from the source material, has a bit more of an actual showing than in either the book or the show.
Who is Shae? What does she do?
Shae, as per canon, is a prostitute who was in the Lannister camp during the Northern offensive. During the song "Shae No To This", Tyrion, in spite of his better instincts, takes her for himself, knowing full well that his father will punish them if they're caught. In spite of this, Shae immediately begins working her wiles on him, including managing to con him into buying her a house to stay in. However, as the pressure gets too big, Tyrion comes up with his canon plan to have her serve as Sansa's handmaid, but Shae calls this out, pointing out the holes in the plan meaning they're actually more likely to be caught instead of less. Despite this, Tyrion goes on with the plan anyway, leaving her planning to get revenge.
She gets her chance during "The Groom When It Happened" when Olenna assassinates Joffrey, participating in the upcoming trial to add guilt to Tyrion's name. At the trial, she "reveals" that he schemed the murder right in front of her with his wife Sansa, which is the critical piece of evidence needed to secure his guilt. In response, Tyrion has his canon rant (well, canon rap) and demands a Trial by Combat - yada yada yada, Oberyn and Gregor die, we know how this goes.
Since Tyrion survived, he goes to Tywin's tower to secure his own vengeance and finds Shae in his bed and the song "Congratshaelations" begins. In it, Shae reveals that Tyrion taught her one very good thing, and now she's taking her best shot just like he always did when he put her neck on the line. She finally calls him out for risking his own life when he knew he'd only get a "slap on the wrist", calling out his selfishness in thinking that he's somehow different from his pride of lions like he claims and saying that now he's wrecked both of their lives for good - "so yeah, congratulations".
Tyrion takes the exact opposite message as intended from this rant, deciding that he's spent too much time focusing on others, and shoots her dead with a crossbow on the spot, marching over her body to shoot his father dead on the toilet immediately after.
Is she Magnificent?
For such a minor character in the midst of the cutthroat court of Westeros, Shae is smart and does everything she can for her position. Among other things, "Shae no to this" reveals that she managed to con Tyrion out of a whole house for her to stay in, and when Tyrion makes his plan to "keep her safe", she very quickly points out all the holes in it and calls him out for his selfishness. When she gets the chance for revenge, she takes it and scapegoats him for Joffrey's murder through her lies, enraging him to the point that he snaps and demands his Trial by Combat. And when he survives and comes for her, she remains unfazed, simply dressing him down for all of his selfishness and woe is me attitude, not backing down for even a moment. Her death is rather abrupt, but that is what happens when one is shot with a crossbow, and considering that Tywin suffers his canon death on the shitter like ten seconds later, it's not bad enough to be disqualifying, especially when it's well within the show's general wacky tone. For only appearing in three songs, she does whatever she can, whether it's conning Tyrion, calling him out, or getting her vengeance on him, and I think she does enough.
Is she a Bitch?
I won't hold scapegoating Tyrion for Joffrey's murder against her a whole lot, but in the process of doing so, she goes out of her way to scapegoat Sansa as well, telling the trial that he schemed the murder with his wife. So while Tyrion kinda had it coming, Sansa was an innocent, but it sells the story so she goes with it. Given that this is still Westeros, I don't think I need to explain why this isn't too much.
Final verdict?
I think a yes overall - what about you?
I hate spoilers
for Shae. I think we need more GoT characters here, considering all of the Gambit Pileup and planning that the series is known for.
Oh my God no.![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Based on the EP though, to Shae.
Seems like a yeah but some, the Gambit Pileup and people getting screwed over is exactly what prevents so many potentials... that and Martin's obsession with making sure all of his villains are responsible for revolting crimes, sexual predation, etc.
Goku Black
Shae.
I do wonder about the more low-key villains though who usually wouldn't get trapped in that gambit quagmire.
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Shae
I haven't watched the show but Tyrian and Varys always sounded like they could count from what I have heard but there's probably some big disqualifiers for them I'm unaware of.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The Moron
They both grab the Idiot Ball with both hands and bungle it at the end - all of Tyrion's actions lead to Daenerys burning down Kings Landing and he's left brokenly begging Jon to kill her, while Varys details his plan for treason to Tyrion and gets sold out and burned to death in response. Plus, Tyrion messes up a lot when he's in Daenerys' employ, including putting the helpless civilians in the crypt of dead bodies... while fighting a guy that can raise the dead. Peter Dinklage even commented on it in an interview:
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Um, Grandfather was already proposed and upvoted
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 24th 2021 at 6:36:37 AM
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
A Song Of Ice And Fire has so many people barreled in a Gambit Pileup that it's almost impossible to tell who is a CM or an MB. Still trying to figure out how to trim Oberon-Vortigern further, what parts are unnecessary, or it is good enough?
- Fairy Realm of the Round Table, Avalon le Fae - The Moment a Planet is Born: Oberon-Vortigern is the polite Evil Uncle of Altria Caster. Summoned to the Avalon le Fae Lostbelt as Vortigern, he loses all memories and is mistaken by the fairies in the Autumn Forest as Oberon, being granted the identify of the latter as a result. When he remembers his other identify Vortigern, he would use his other identify Oberon to work together to their goals through deceiving Chaldea by making it look like Oberon took a hit from Morgan before working behind the scenes to deceive both Chaldea and the Fairies into reawakening Cernunnos, The Calamity of Curses, who acted as a seal towards his powers. Upon the final defeat of Cernunnos, Vortigern's power as the Hollow Worm is unleashed, finally allowing him to perform his role as Fairie Britain's personification of self-destruction as punishment for the fae's sins and betrayal of Cernunnos through devouring the entirety of the Lostbelt, and would have destroyed Proper Human History through Oberon's hatred of humanity judging the stories of the Lostbelts and pruning those that don't satisfy them to save their own existence, if it were not for Altria Caster summoning herself as Altria Avalon to assist Chaldea into defeating Oberon-Vortigern, but he remains polite even when defeated.
to Shae and Jimbo (KND). I felt if anyone from KND counted, it'd be Grandfather. I remember him being extremely powerful, competent, and slightly intimidating (by that show's standards).
Edited by Idisagree on Aug 24th 2021 at 3:22:53 AM
The wifi here sucks
BTW Detective Conan has been renamed to Case Closed, I don't know if we need to change the names on the thread but I'm mentioning this in case we do.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Maybe it's just me, perhaps it's just the tongue-in-cheekiness of the play, but I'm having a hard time seeing a someone who insults someone who has them at crossbow point and gets shot for it as magnificent. There are a myriad of reasons Tywin doesn't count in canon but one of them is what I just stated. Am I missing something? How does she stack up against other schemers in the play?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Removed an unapproved entry from YMMV.Halo Silentium: