During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Mereum and Shigero.
The wifi here sucks
Abstain on Kuroda, not really sure if he does enough to truly stand out as magnificent.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
I think that actually works to his favour. He knows when to act, how to conduct himself and when to cut losses. I’m a world of overly ambitious mobsters he’s the only one with a good understanding of the situation, real morals and charm that isn’t just a facade and ability to ingratiate himself to people to the point he’s in no danger of ever having to pay for his life as a criminal.
Yes to Meruem and Kuroda.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
To Kuroda. Also, 43110, you misspelled In as I'm. (Goddammit how am I supposed to link to your username?)
Edited by Siegfried1337 on Jul 13th 2021 at 2:00:18 AM
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates
Good lord does grammar policing me on a minor slip really have any bearing towards the point I raised? Clearly I typed it fast on my phone and autocorrect took the wrong jab at what I was trying to say. I don't think anyone's going to be especially confused when that should be something that can be inferred.
Also why do you need to link to my username? It'll send me a PM which I've always found annoying especially on a thread I frequent when it'll just link me to a post I'd see anyways.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 13th 2021 at 5:07:11 AM
Mureum & Kuroda
The Moron
Got another Buffy potential - and this one actually leads into another one I have. It's from the episode "Get It Done", and once again it's a five-minute guy. Here goes nothing.
Who is the Shadowman? What does he do?
In the beginning, demons ruled the Earth - until, to summarize, they all got tired and left for other dimensions. However, some demons stayed, mixed with humans, and voila, the first vampires were born. To combat them, a group of village shamans got together - and one of them was the Shadowman. The Shadowman found a woman, Sineya, and puts her through the ritual to become the First Slayer, which includes binding her to the heart and spirit of a demon at the expense of her humanity. Despite the cruelty of the method, it works - the Slayer line is created and the Old Ones were eventually banished from the Earth.
At some point later, he and two other Shadowmen were performing a ritual when Buffy arrives back in the past. Immediately revealing that he knows she's from the future, the Shadowman also reveals that he knows she came back for knowledge to defeat the First Evil, but he cannot give knowledge, only power. While the three walk in a circle to distract her and throw her off, the Shadowman has one of his men knock her out - they then chain her down in the same place they created the First Slayer, intending to replicate the process to empower Buffy at the expense of her humanity.
Buffy manages to reject the demon as well as his teachings, all while he continues saying that his way is the only way that works. Buffy proves him wrong by breaking her chains, then taking out the other two men with him while he stands back calmly. When she confronts him again, he realizes that she's not going to accept his teaching and decides to give Buffy the knowledge she came there for - the knowledge of the First Evil's army of Turok-Han vampires, all located directly under the school. After essentially injecting the image into her brain, Buffy is sent back to the present, yet is then left uncertain about whether or not she did the right thing by rejecting his offer - an insecurity that will persist until she breaks the Slayer line completely in the finale.
Is he Magnificent?
Not the organization as a whole, but this particular one? I think so, once again in the Small Role, Big Impact way. In essence, by creating the first Slayer, the Shadowman ensures the creation of the Slayer line, the Old Ones being driven off of the Earth, the formation of the Watcher's Council, as well as the Potential Slayer line that drives season seven. In essence, the entire franchise ties back to this guy. Within the episode himself, he proves that he somehow knew Buffy would be coming and knows exactly who she is and why she's there, has her knocked out so as to ensure that she receives the extra power boost she needs, and when she rejects his teachings and escapes anyway, the Shadowman simply takes it in stride and gives her the knowledge that she needs to take on the First Evil's army - and even then, he does so in such a way that Buffy starts to wonder if he might have actually been right after all. Combine that with about seven minutes of time, I think he does enough.
Is he a Bastard?
The method of creating the first Slayer was downright cruel and it is acknowledged as such. The Shadowman tied her down, had her bound with the heart and spirit of the demon, and turns her into a warrior at the expense of her humanity. He then tries to do the same thing to Buffy in spite of her protests when she arrives in his time. However, he's doing so in order to create a warrior that will protect the world, and in doing so essentially creates the Watcher's Council - who, as incompetent as they are, do still mean well. Plus, when his teachings are rejected and his men are defeated, he gives Buffy what she came for with no protests, helping her defeat the First. I think he's got a balance here.
Mitigating factors?
I just want to be quick yet thorough.
During her time in the past, Buffy calls the Shadowmen pathetic cowards who put a girl through hell just to save their own asses, and for the organization as a whole I'd be inclined to agree... this particular Shadowman, though, doesn't show any trace of cowardice himself. When Buffy escapes from her chains, the Shadowman just stays back and lets it happen, not because he's scared but because he realizes that Buffy's not going to go with his teachings and he might as well give her what she came for. The two guys with him, meanwhile, try to take her down and get put down like chumps, so his calm presence stands out in comparison.
Additionally, there's an entry on the episode's page that says this:
- Does This Remind You of Anything?: Forcibly merging with the shadowy demon that turns her into the Slayer has definite rape aspects.
I really don't think the show quite goes there. Like, it goes in her mouth at one point, but that's pretty much it, and in a show that doesn't hide away from rape (Spike outright attempts to rape Buffy onscreen, Angelus exists, even Vamp!Willow and Vamp!Xander have genuine undertones when they torture Alternate!Angel), even if they were there I don't think it's to disqualifying levels.
Final verdict?
I think I'm a yeah, but it's tentative - what about you?
Been getting into tokusatsu lately thanks to Shout! Factory TV (Damn good streaming service with a lot of older Toku shows) and I think I've got a candidate...
What's the work? Mirai Sentai Timeranger is the twenty-fourth Super Sentai series, focused around a group of police from the future coming back to the year 2000 as "Timerangers," basically just a cop variation on the Henshin Hero archetype, tasked to hunt down the evil Don Dolnero and his devious Londerz family, a set of prison convicts. The basic thesis is that every week they confront a new monster, who fights them, then after defeat turns giant to be finished off by their giant robot. "Episode 10: The Escape To Tomorrow" is a development-focused episode centered around the terminally ill Blue Timeranger Ayase, and provides a villain of the week that I think counts.
Who is Mercenary Org? Mercenary Org is a mercenary monster who looks like he's a reject from Fist of the North Star, tasked to hunt down the Timerangers due to the large bounties on them. He's a muscular monster in spiked armor who wields a large mace (and a sword) and has a surprisingly keen mind as a Genius Bruiser. Org first creates a space-time communication pulse to lure in the Timerangers. He manages to get Red Timeranger Tatsuya and Blue Timeranger Ayase to follow the pulse, before then disabling their Chrono Chargers and leaving them unable to morph. After that, they discover he's planted a bomb, which then explodes. When they narrowly survive the bomb, Org, not fit to pull a Never Found the Body, checks in on them, and upon discovering them alive begins to utterly own them, noting that he's memorized the area. Eventually driving them into a freezing room, Org traps them in it and pragmatically decides to let them freeze to death while he deals with their comrades who have come to save them. Org then proceeds to unleash the exact same sort of whoop-ass on the Yellow and Pink Timerangers, thrashing them within an inch of their lives.
However, the Green Timeranger, Sion, arrives to save Tatsuya and Ayase and repair their Chrono Changers. While Org mocks their allies as he prepares the final blow, boasting that they will soon join Tatsuya and Ayase in death, Tatsuya and Ayase arrive in the nick of time, barely rescuing their allies. From there on out, it's admittedly a pretty solid Curb-Stomp Battle in the Timerangers' favor, following the usual formula— Org, after a moment of surprise, attacks but is outdone by the two newly-bonded Timerangers, who work effortlessly as a team. After the beatdown, he pulls out the standard Sentai bad guy last resort and turns gigantic. The Timerangers assemble their robot and freeze-compress him, shrinking and arresting him.
Is Org magnificent? Intelligent? Charismatic? An on-your-feet thinker? So... Org is, by the standards of a Monster of the Week on one of these shows? Pretty good at his job. He's one of the only ones to be ruthlessly efficient in his job. He literally opens by drawing the leads into a bomb trap, averts Never Found the Body by coming to check and make sure they're dead, has the environment memorized, and even drives the two into a freezing room and just decides to leave them there so he can deal with the others before wiping the floor with his teammates. While he doesn't quite top that ridiculously effective first outing, getting his ass handed to him after Tatsuya and Ayase escape, he does manage to recover from momentary shock by turning gigantic and charging their similarly gigantic Time Robo. His defeat is definitely more dramatic than most MOTWs as well, as he flat-out charges Time Robo Alpha, roaring, sword at the ready before being beaten in a Single-Stroke Battle. He ain't a machiavellian schemer but he's smart, and while he does go down pretty easy, he's always trying to fight back and he's only outdone physically rather than mentally. You can argue he panics for literally two lines, but afterwards he recovers and he's quick to go giant for the final showdown.
So intelligence, he's mostly good on. His defeat isn't amazing, but trust me when I say he's leagues beyond the average MOTW on this show (Who usually just smash things and rob people in a way that corresponds to their gimmick) in terms of how he splits up the Timerangers, makes them vulnerable, and brings them to the ground, only stopped at the last moment by Sion's intervention, with him managing to take down four Timerangers before Sion shows up, with two of them sealed away to nigh-certain death and the other two nearly killed. Obviously, he takes a bit of time to gloat as he slowly approaches to finish them off, but... genre conventions, he's not gonna get to kill the leads in Episode 10. I'm not gonna hold it against him.
What of charm? This is... a bit spottier to be honest. As an MOTW, he's not hugely nuanced. He's definitely an example of Evil Is Cool and he wipes the floor with the Timerangers, but his personality kinda boils down to "greedy mercenary." He's not particularly hateable by any means— he mocks his enemies when they're down, but he's not a despicable sadist by any means, and while boastful and confident, he's extremely professional and ruthless, not a Smug Snake at all. Hell, while he gloats he does so with a huge advantage since two of the Timerangers are incapacitated and the other two are losing hard to him. In addition, while many villains are forced to retreat in Dirty Coward fashion, Org's only "retreats" are repositioning himself for another attack.
Is he a bastard? Too much? Standard MOTW, except the wrinkle is that he never goes after civilians and his fight takes place in a pretty isolated area. He tries to kill the heroes with a bomb, tries to let them freeze to death, and mocks the heroes about their friends' deaths. That said, unlike many villains he focuses entirely on the heroes, mocking the heroes isn't a display of sadism— he's just very sure of himself and the villains in Timeranger do that sort of thing constantly. (I'll give him credit for at least doing it when the heroes are down.) Also, while freezing your enemies to death slowly is pretty horrible, it's just a pragmatic time-saving measure so he's not fighting Tatsuya and Ayase while he deals with Domon and Yuuri.
So, yeah, he's un-nuancedly bad, but by the standards of the show he actually comes out looking better than many of its standard baddies since he's not causing death and destruction for the sake of it, and he earns his money through contract killing instead of random robbery.
Verdict? In all honesty, for an MOTW, he does really well, and I honestly gotta say I think he counts. Not the most exciting keeper to be sure but I say he makes it.
Professor Gigachad
Shadowman I guess, by the way, Star speaking of the franchise I noticed that the Buffyverse page only has one example for Angel I assumed that there would be more or have you just to gotten to that yet?
The Moron
Org sounds like a yes
And I'm finishing up Buffy before I move on to Angel - I know Mir has at least one from that show, and I've got two on my watchlist.
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Shadowman, Org and of course, Anti-Villain Cell er, I mean, Meruem!
- Despicable Me:
- Dr. Joseph Albert Nefario is the brilliant Mad Scientist who works alongside Felonious Gru in his villainous escapades. Assisting Gru in most of his greatest schemes through use of Nefario's strategic and technically sound mind, Nefario constructs cookie robots, a massive rocket ship out of scrap metal, and other ingenious inventions while steering Gru into staying on the path of evil. Eventually growing to care for Gru's adopted children, Nefario helps Gru save them repeatedly from harm, and even when Nefario betrays Gru and joins with El Macho to help him dominate the planet, Nefario returns to Gru's side when El Macho threatens Gru and the girls, Nefario taking down El Macho personally and reuniting with Gru as allies once more.
- Despicable Me 3: Dru Gru is Felonious Gru's eccentric billionaire twin brother with a giddy love for villainy and desire to continue their father's evil legacy. Dru effortlessly charms Gru's entire family to distract them while he manipulates Gru into training him in villainy, and even though their initial heist goes off horribly thanks to Dru's inexperience, Dru comes in clutch to save the day and personally take down Balthazar Bratt's Giant Mecha when it threatens the world. Though apparently joining Gru afterwards, Dru rallies the Minions under his banner and steals Gru's own technology to become his own villain, going on to face off with Gru for many heists to come.
- Minions:
- Herb Overkill is the laidback, swaggering husband of the world's greatest villain Scarlet, and plays a key role in her years of success with his technological genius. Outfitting Scarlet with every sort of weapon and tool she could ever need, Herb's skills are so useful that he even successfuly supplies the Minions with such good gadgets that they pull off a heist for the Overkills handily. Designing Scarlet's coronation dress with defensive and offensive capabilities that save her life and make her a massive threat in the climax, Herb maintains a chill, friendly attitude the whole film, never holding any real malice towards anyone he goes up against, simply working with Scarlet because he loves her and enjoys goofing around.
- Walter and Madge Nelson are a pair of successful supervillains who raise their children to be as skilled and dangerous as them. Walter and Madge make family trips out of bank robberies and high security museum infiltration, doing such a good job in ripping the places off that even their infant son Binky becomes a deadly villain in no time. Genuinely befriending the Minions and offering them advice in villainy, the Nelsons are the only bad guys who refuse to ally with Scarlet Overkill in hunting the Minions, urging their friends to escape.
- The Backyardigans:
- "International Super Spy": The Lady in Pink is a brilliant criminal mastermind out to obtain the three canisters as her "recipe for disaster." Spying on Agent Secret and using him to lead her to the canisters, the Lady and her Henchman Tyrone routinely give Secret hefty duels over the canisters, from ski battles to dance-offs. Revealed to have concocted a backup plan if Secret got the canisters first, the Lady kidnaps Secret's boss Miss T and threatens tickle torture to force Secret into handing the canisters over, at which point the Lady catches him, as well. Astute enough to see through Austin's disguise and thwart his attempted rescue of Secret, the Lady ultimately is redeemed and becomes a super spy alongside Secret, working with him to use the canisters in creating glasses of chocolate milk for everyone.
Gotta love Jaws!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Shouldn't Minions be in the Despicable Me tree with a subheading for the two (well technically three) candidates or is that not how it works with spin offs?
to Meruem, Kuroda, Shadowman and Org.
Meruem, Kuroda, Shadowman and Org
Here's the full tree in the drafts that I put together—including El Macho:
- Despicable Me:
- Dr. Joseph Albert Nefario is the brilliant Mad Scientist who works alongside Felonious Gru in his villainous escapades. Assisting Gru in most of his greatest schemes through use of Nefario's strategic and technically sound mind, Nefario constructs cookie robots, a massive rocket ship out of scrap metal, and other ingenious inventions while steering Gru into staying on the path of evil. Eventually growing to care for Gru's adopted children, Nefario helps Gru save them repeatedly from harm, and even when Nefario betrays Gru and joins with El Macho to help him dominate the planet, Nefario returns to Gru's side when El Macho threatens Gru and the girls, Nefario taking down El Macho personally and reuniting with Gru as allies once more.
- Despicable Me 2: Eduardo "El Macho" Perez is a legendary supervillain famous for being ruthless, dangerous and, as the name implies, very macho. Faking his death to get to evade his enemies, he returns twenty years laters where he plans to create an army to help him conquer the world: creating his army by stealing a secret laboratory from the Arctic Circle; recruiting Dr. Nefario and having him create the mind-controlling mutagen PX-41; and kidnapping the Minions to experiment on, using the PX-41 to bring them under his control. El Macho also offers the retired super villain Felonious Gru an opportunity to rule by his side, but when Gru refuses to, El Macho kidnaps Gru's Love Interest, Lucy Wilde, and holds her hostage to keep Gru from interfering before drinking the PX-11 to gain monstrous strength in his attempt to kill Gru.
- Despicable Me 3: Dru Gru is Felonious Gru's eccentric billionaire twin brother with a giddy love for villainy and desire to continue their father's evil legacy. Dru effortlessly charms Gru's entire family to distract them while he manipulates Gru into training him in villainy, and even though their initial heist goes off horribly thanks to Dru's inexperience, Dru comes in clutch to save the day and personally take down Balthazar Bratt's Giant Mecha when it threatens the world. Though apparently joining Gru afterwards, Dru rallies the Minions under his banner and steals Gru's own technology to become his own villain, going on to face off with Gru for many heists to come.
- Minions:
- Herb Overkill is the laidback, swaggering husband of the world's greatest villain Scarlet, and plays a key role in her years of success with his technological genius. Outfitting Scarlet with every sort of weapon and tool she could ever need, Herb's skills are so useful that he even successfuly supplies the Minions with such good gadgets that they pull off a heist for the Overkills handily. Designing Scarlet's coronation dress with defensive and offensive capabilities that save her life and make her a massive threat in the climax, Herb maintains a chill, friendly attitude the whole film, never holding any real malice towards anyone he goes up against, simply working with Scarlet because he loves her and enjoys goofing around.
- Walter and Madge Nelson are a pair of successful supervillains who raise their children to be as skilled and dangerous as them. Walter and Madge make family trips out of bank robberies and high security museum infiltration, doing such a good job in ripping the places off that even their infant son Binky becomes a deadly villain in no time. Genuinely befriending the Minions and offering them advice in villainy, the Nelsons are the only bad guys who refuse to ally with Scarlet Overkill in hunting the Minions, urging their friends to escape.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 13th 2021 at 5:29:25 AM
Gotta love Jaws!
Shadowman and Org.
to Shadowman and Org
The Moron
So bouncing off of the Shadowman, let's get a technically series wide keeper!
Who is Sineya? What does she do?
Sineya is the First Slayer, the woman that the Shadowman forced to accept a demon spirit in exchange for her humanity. In the past, she worked entirely alone, yet managed to drive away the Old Ones from the Earth before eventually dying. Due to her powers, however, her spirit remains tied to the mortal plane, and thus she can be summoned when necessary. Such a situation occurs in the end of season 4 when the gang can't defeat Adam - they perform a spell together to summon the First Slayer, who strengthens Buffy so she can kill him by ripping out his power core. However, she becomes enraged by the fact that the Slayer relies on allies, and thus takes her vengeance the next night.
As the Gang sleeps, Sineya comes to them in dreams, tormenting them with nightmares of their fears, such as Willow performing in public and Giles being unable to save Buffy - they slowly realize that they are in danger, yet can not stop her. One by one, she kills Willow, Xander, and Giles based on the roles they played in the spell - such as ripping Xander's heart out of his chest and scalping Giles, since they were the heart and brain of the spell. Eventually, she confronts Buffy herself and explains her rage that she works with allies - Buffy rejects the idea that she must work alone and realizes that she can stop the fight if she wakes up. Before she does, however, Sineya begins to accept her words and brings the other Scoobies back, as well as dropping cryptic words that foreshadow Dawn's creation. As a result of the encounter, Buffy begins putting more effort into understanding the history of the Slayer, desiring to become more well-rounded in her job.
She then has a few smaller appearances, yet they are no less impactful. In "Get It Done", Sineya comes to Buffy in a dream and attacks her, telling her that "it's not enough" just before Buffy wakes up. Despite the ambiguity, Buffy eventually comes to realize what she meant - she meant that Buffy must share the Slayer power with the other Potential Slayers, thus leading to Willow using the Scythe to empower all of them and defeating the First. She then has another visit in Season 9 when she gives Buffy another cryptic message about how the Scythe could restore the world of magic, with Buffy realizing that she means that Willow must wield the Scythe in order to fix it - a situation that eventually comes to pass, leading to the return of magic to the world.
In her final appearance, it's revealed that she had given Slayer visions to Billy Lane, a non-Slayer ally, in order to save him from zompires, showing that she has now come around and accepts allies in the fight against evil.
Is she Magnificent?
Oh absolutely she is. In her one villainous appearance, she manipulates the Gang's dreams to her heart's content before killing them, wanting to punish them for what she believes to be a breach of proper Slayer ethics by working with her at all - she even utilizes their fears to do so, such as Giles not being able to save Buffy and Xander having to confront his abusive father. When Buffy wins their confrontation, Sineya simply warns her about Dawn's arrival and lets the Gang live, proving that she's coming around to Buffy's way of thinking. Following that, her small bits and pieces of appearances have massive ramifications for the series, even when it's from single cryptic lines. By the end, through her actions and manipulations, she's either directly or indirectly responsible for the Old Ones being driven off of Earth, Adam's defeat, Buffy becoming a much more well-rounded Slayer, the Scythe being used to spread the Slayer power (and thus the creation of the Slayer Organization), the defeat of the First Evil's army, the return of magic to the world, and Billy discovering fire as a weakness for the zompires, all while only having 5 or so small appearances across a few episodes and comics. In all honesty, her first appearance would be enough for me due to its unique nature, but with everything else she does during every second of her appearances? She's an easy yeah.
Is she a Bitch?
In every appearance except for the first, no she's not, but in the first, she literally kills three of the Scooby gang in gruesome ways out of anger for being summoned. I also want to be clear that even though she's killing them in dreams, she is explicitly killing them in real life as well - we watch them die in their sleep. However, after that appearance, she's firmly on the side of good, even if she's cryptic about it, so she's got a good balance.
Final verdict?
I give a yep - what about you?
Yes to Org and our latest two Buffys!
Professor Gigachad
Sineya, man the Buffyverse is proving to be a goldmine for MB's.
I am also guessing Sineya will go under The Master?
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jul 13th 2021 at 6:49:25 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Lies and Violence!
Sineya.
Technically, the Mayor would be a franchise-wide character too, as he pops up in the S12 comics. Nevermind, then ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 13th 2021 at 6:54:22 AM
The Moron
Well, it's a bit sticky.
Wilkins is fine where he is because he doesn't appear in any Angel properties, but Sineya technically appears in a flashback in a Fray book - we see the ritual that transformed her into the First Slayer in that book. Soooo should she go at the top of the Buffy tree since that's where almost all of her appearances are, or would she be franchise-wide?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 13th 2021 at 9:54:09 AM
Yeah to Mereum and Kuroda.