During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Easy, easy yes to Magnus.
Edit: should I wait till later to try add Chang to the drafts?
Edited by Overlord on Sep 24th 2018 at 4:04:47 AM
Yes to Magus, Chang should be fine to be added now.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
It's a fake lock, try opening it in a new tab and it should let you edit.
Edited by 43110 on Sep 24th 2018 at 8:09:26 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks.
I am asking because the drafts page seems to be locked.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 24th 2018 at 4:20:35 AM
Also, here's what's in the drafts right now:
- Flame of Recca: Kurei Mori, The Dragon to Kouran Mori is the string puller behind the events of the first 50+ chapters. Kidnapping Recca's "princess", Yanagi, Kurei baits Recca to his castle. Defeating Recca and the heroes' Team Hokage, Kurei forces them to participate in the lethal combat arena, Ura Butou Satsujin, where the wealthy gamble on the fights—including Kurei's adoptive father, the aforementioned Kouran. After witnessing the abilities of Team Hokage, Kurei prepares powerful fighters to challenge them and even uses the heroes to take down the traitorous Genjuro, along with his minions. Having removed all other opposition, Kurei challenges Recca to one-on-one combat and after being defeated, honors his promise not to attack Recca or his friends. Helping the heroes kill Kouran after he betrays Kurei, Kurei proved himself to plan one step ahead of everyone else and always remained a Noble Demon at heart, despite his brutal tendencies.
- X-Men Film Series: Magneto, real name Erik Lehnsherr, is a Holocaust survivor who believes mutants will suffer the same injustices unless they strike first to establish mutant superiority. Using his charisma and promises of freedom and acceptance to rally like-minded mutants to his side, Magneto forms the Brotherhood of Mutants with the goal of seeking mutant dominance over the world through any means necessary, even if he must cause the mass death or forced mutation of multiple humans. Yet he is calm, affable, and soft-spoken, regarding Charles Xavier as an old friend despite their ideological differences, and willing to work with the X-men against threats to all mutantkind when they arise. Between his careful plotting, his powerful mutant abilities, and his willingness to go as far as he must to ensure mutantkind's safety from humans, Magneto repeatedly demonstrates himself the most complex and competent foe Xavier and the X-men would ever face.
- Bron|Broen: The Truth Terrorist, real name Sebastian Sandstrod, the Big Bad of season 1 is an athletic and military-trained but also well-dressed and charismatic Serial Killer who wants to bring attention to social problems. To do this, the Terrorist starts killing them, giving the issue more attention than ever. Having five children kidnapped and placed inside a locked room, the Terrorist wants to bring attention to child labor by giving a demand that people will have to burn down the offices of five companies using it, everytime it happens he spares one child each, and doesn't back out of the deal once they do as he says. Placing Hennig, an officer committing misconduct which lead to a man's death in the basement of said man's brother, the Terrorist tries framing the brother for the murder by having him torture Hennig. With his true goal being revealed to get vengeance on Martin Rohde for cheating on Sandstrod's wife before she along with their son died, Sandstod, then named Jens Hansen and the best policeman around, now wants revenge on Rohde for ruining his life. He does this by having Rohde's eldest son August build a good relationship with his father by putting them through life-threatening situations, only to later kill him, just so that it would hurt more.
- Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World: Richter Abend, a former scientist seeking to kill the genocidal spirit Ratatosk and to resurrect his friend Aster, who was killed by Ratatosk. To accomplish this, Richter makes a pact with the demons of Niflheim, who give Richter the strength to face Ratatosk and a promise to resurrect Aster on the condition that Richter kills Ratatosk, which will destroy the barrier stopping the demons from invading the mortal world. However, Richter devises a plan to doublecross the demons by sacrificing himself after Ratatosk is dead and Aster is revived. Exploiting the tension between the peoples of Sylvarant and Tethea'alla, Richter uses Solum's core to control Brute, the leader of the Vanguard, turning it into a violent anti-Tethe'allan movement. Richter uses this ethnic violence to cover up his quest to find and kill Ratatosk. Along the way, Richter befriends Emil and teaches him self-confidence. After Emil stops Richter's plans, Richter works together with the newly-reformed Ratatosk to hold back the demons of Niflheim for a thousand years.
- Marvel Animated Universe:
- Doctor Victor Von Doom is the ruler of Latveria and a master of both science and the mystic arts. After losing his parents under a tyrannical regime and being disfigured in a horrific lab accident, Doom declared he would bring peace to the world under his iron fist. He feuded with the Fantastic Four on numerous occasions and was the one who destroyed their headquarters at the Baxter Building. Doom has twice stolen the powers of the Silver Surfer and tricked the Hulk into nearly killing the Thing. When the UN ordered him to be tried for war crimes, Doom trapped Washington D.C. under a force field and forced the Hulk to destroy the entire capital. Doom was the most successful villain during the Secret Wars and transformed the territories he conquered into utopias free from conflict or strive. Managing to even steal the powers of the almighty Beyonder, Doctor Doom has proven he has one of the most cunning and audacious minds in the Marvel Animated Universe.
- Spider-Man: The Animated Series: Wilson Fisk is a wealthy philanthropist, but is known amongst the criminal underworld as The Kingpin of crime. Crawling out of life of impoverishment and constant abuse, Fisk became the head of a worldwide criminal empire using the skills he honed in prison. From his headquarters within the Empire State Building, Fisk has the various gangs and supervillains in New York under his thumb. He supplies those under his employ with weapons in exchange for their complete loyalty, while taking great care to ensure they remain utterly dependent on him. Despite the constant interference of superheroes like Spider-Man, it's never enough to loosen the Kingpin's grip over Manhattan. His wealth and public image allow him to avoid the consequences of his actions, even if it means sacrificing the ones he loves the most. With schemes such as forming the Insidious Six, to framing others for his crimes, to even attacking the SHIELD Helicarrier; Fisk isn't afraid to get his hands dirty in his pursuit for absolute power.
Fan Works:
- No More Turnabout: The polite and playful Henry Cooldown is the true murderer behind the crime that his twin brother, Travis Touchdown, finds himself framed for. Worried that Travis's relationship with Henry's ex-wife, Sylvia Christel, will lead Travis down to ruin, Henry formulates a plan to make Travis believe Sylvia was the one who framed him for the murder, and lead to the end of their relationship. Henry hires renowned assassin, Shelly de Killer, to attack Diane Heifer at the cemetery and make it seem as if the true crime scene occurred there before having him bring her body to the video store for Henry to murder. Henry then poses as an assistant and bodyguard to Phoenix Wright after saving his life from hitmen who Henry himself hired, and subtly leads Phoenix and Maya to misleading pieces of evidence. Henry successfully manages to put Sylvia under suspicion by having de Killer fake a slip-up about his client's identity. Even after Phoenix discovers that Henry is the murderer, Henry nearly gets away with his crimes by presenting proof of an alibi at the time the murder was thought to occur at the cemetery. When finally defeated, Henry accepts defeat with dignity and openly admits to being wrong when he finds out that Sylvia truly cares for his brother.
Anything else anyone wants added can be popped in and I'll submit tomorrow.
@ chase, I marked Doom as being from Fantastic Four since I think that's when you said he debuted in the connected animated works but did you want me to tag any words/phrases with the other shows he appears in to indicate where his acts being in them? Like I have now?
Edited by 43110 on Sep 25th 2018 at 10:15:11 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I technically already did that. If wrote the entry under the implication we would make a "Marvel Animated Universe" entry tree and put Doom and the Kingpin under that. If not and we follow the formatting done above, we should get rid of the second pothole to Fantastic Four within the text itself. Otherwise, I marked which crimes are exclusive to which show.
Yeah, that looks good. Thanks, mate. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Edited by chasemaddigan on Sep 24th 2018 at 9:49:09 AM
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
To Mag and Tan.
I've talked with Elfen, who in turn talked with Mr. 4, and I've decided that Sirius from Bomberman 64 might be a tad bit too smug for this trope.
Now, I wonder if anyone is actually interested in proposing candidates from the Bomberman franchise.
If there are no takers then I might check through the Wiki.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Sep 24th 2018 at 6:36:42 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
There's also the Magneto draft for the films.
- X-Men Film Series: Magneto, real name Erik Lehnsherr, is a Holocaust survivor who believes mutants will suffer the same injustices unless they strike first to establish mutant superiority. Using his charisma and promises of freedom and acceptance to rally like-minded mutants to his side, Magneto forms the Brotherhood of Mutants with the goal of seeking mutant dominance over the world through any means necessary, even if he must cause the mass death or forced mutation of multiple humans. Yet he is calm, affable, and soft-spoken, regarding Charles Xavier as an old friend despite their ideological differences, and willing to work with the X-men against threats to all mutantkind when they arise. Between his careful plotting, his powerful mutant abilities, and his willingness to go as far as he must to ensure mutantkind's safety from humans, Magneto repeatedly demonstrates himself the most complex and competent foe Xavier and the X-men would ever face.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Just so you know, I'm talking about Magnus from Chrono Trigger.
Yes to Magus absolute no to Sephy. Not only is he the poster boy for Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum and Draco in Leather Pants but he's also batshit insane. Like it's implied Jenova was manipulating him, and even if she/it wasn't, he, like Kefka, is too insane and evil for this trope. Not CM worthy like Kefka, but Sephiroth falls between the middle of villains who are far too evil to be Affably Evil (hell I'd say even KUJA was more affable than Sephiroth ever was) but not evil enough and has a Freudian Excuse preventing him from being Pure Evil.
Did we discuss Kefka from Dissidia 012? He does a lot of manipulating behind the scenes even out-gambitting Kuja and Emperor taking control of Kuja through false memories to prevent him from helping Zidane, Bartz, and Squall? Plus unlike the original game, he's given somewhat of a (albeit non canon in the main game) Freudian Excuse and has a pitiable death. What about Chaos/Garland? Were they discussed? Kefka might be too smug, but Chaos/Garland respect their opponents.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 24th 2018 at 11:11:59 AM
I spoke to miraculous who believes Dissidia!Kefka is too Ax-Crazy to count.
Can people please stop discussing and objecting to Sephiroth? We are not discussing him right now. I have him on my to-do list and I intend to refute/confront every possible problem people have I can think of because there's a LOT of misconceptions surrounding him. I've seen outright falsehoods these past few pages so I'm looking forward to setting the record straight.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Sep 25th 2018 at 12:48:36 PM
Goku Black
Dissdia Kefka is way too nuts to qualify even if he is more sympathetic than his home game.
Chaos / Garland is a maybe. A big issue is that there just pawns to Shinryu in the end but I would be fine with seeing an argument for either.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I wasn't responding to you...?
I'll add in Film!Magneto and as Polar said, can we please stop throwing pre-emptive arguments up for Sephiroth, he'll get to him when he gets to him and we can handle this then but piling on counter-arguments before he gets the chance to EP almost just ruins him getting discussed at all.
The Unknown Unknown
I mean, we've done that before in the very similar CM thread, but OK. I shall wait and see.
Edited by erazor0707 on Sep 25th 2018 at 7:51:03 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Goku Black
No offence Erazor but that is not a good argument. I can think of three separate badguys of the top of my head (Outworld Algol, Andross and Baron Heinreich Zemo) who we had this same pre-EP conversations where we basically wrote them off. Only for them to get approved as CM's when there ep went up as with everything in the clear, people voted yes.
So yes please just give Polar some time to do an ep before we start discusssing him.
Edited by miraculous on Sep 25th 2018 at 8:15:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Unknown Unknown
No offense taken. Like I said, I'll wait and see.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Write-up for Ricky Tan
Ricky Tan is a leader within the Chinese Triads and a former partner to Lee's murdered father, who found out Tan was a Dirty Cop before he was murdered by an unknown party. Tan tells Lee he is losing a civil war within the Triads and asks him for protection and help, but is killed before Lee's eyes. Tan then turns up alive and well in America; he faked his death in order to go into hiding, flee Hong Kong authorities, and become the secret backer of an international smuggling operation. Through his accomplices Steven Reign and Hu Li, Tan has counterfeited $100 million US in extremely convincing fake bills, and will launder them through a Las Vegas casino, proudly proclaiming it is a business "where people hand [him] money, and [he] gives them back absolutely nothing." In every interaction with Lee, Tan presents himself as an Affably Evil mobster, one minute claiming he tried to "help" Lee's father give him a better life, and the next coldly telling Lee how weak and pathetic he was before Tan shot him.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 25th 2018 at 1:57:31 PM
Cool, go ahead and add ‘er up. The batch is so small this week I’ll take any add ons to pump it up.
Added to the drafts page :)
Also, check and apologies on Sephiroth. I'll keep quiet until the formal EP.
Sorry 'bout the pre-emptive objections to Sephiroth, kupo.
Also a MB doesn't need to be in control all the time. Take Kuja for example. Dude was ultimately a pawn to Garland but he got voted up. So I'd say Garland (Dissidia), and Chaos have a chance.
Think I might effort post one of them provided no one has claimed them.
I'm also thinking of proposing Raem from the spin off game Crystal Chronicles as he is actually quite affable, despite wanting to eat the memories of a teenager. The fact Raem is driven by the desire to not fade makes him quite a likable adversary as well as the fact he hijacks his possible wife/friend/partner Lady Mio.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 25th 2018 at 2:44:26 AM
I'd say no to Chaos and Garland. Chaos plain isn't a schemer at all, he lets the villains do as they like and doesn't get involved in things personally. Garland isn't much for plotting either, he just lives for the thrill of battle and acts as Chaos' guardian; he knows more than he lets on but doesn't do much with that info.
The Unknown Unknown
Same.
Once Polar does his Sephiroth effortpost, I think we'll have drained Final Fantasy of its MB candidates unless we're missing something obscure.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Maybe Airy from Bravely Default, but I think she's too awful to qualify. Same with Seymour. With both games' sequels I'm not sure, haven't played them.
Ultimecia might possibly count, but I don't think her character is developed enough and IMHO she lacks that "Magnificent" factor.
Golbez is a saddening miss because he could totally check off every qualification with gusto, if only he wasn't brainwashed and acting under his own power. And I think it's too much of a stretch to just attribute all he does to Zemus and then EP him.
Genesis is close, he's stylish, charismatic, and evil, but he isn't a good long-term plotter, most of the Genesis War was orchestrated by Lazard and Hollander with Genesis just going along with them, and once he struck out on his own he didn't show much skill at planning out elaborate schemes.
Short of the Tactics series, which I have no knowledge of, yeah I think FF is done.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Sep 25th 2018 at 8:11:32 AM
Not to mention, Sephiroth's entire role in Advent Children could be relegated to "Troll and torment Cloud," which really kills his magnificence.
So, I'd agree on a pre-emptive nay for Sephiroth.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.