During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
We already have the Vulture and Zemo up. Pierce and Vanko I don't really think stand out enough, Loki's way too much of a Butt-Monkey and a screw-up the longer he's on-screen to count (Thor even notes his shtick's gotten way too predictable in Ragnarok when Loki tries to betray him for the umpteenth time) and I'd wait until the next Avengers movie to EP Thanos.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Zemo and Vulture are listed. There in the film section already and Zemo is actually the page quote. Thanos were waiting on to see what will happen in the next film on him.
Not sure on the others but I remember Loki being kicked out.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 20th 2018 at 11:16:50 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
On second thought Vanko wouldn't count, he's not too much of a schemer. Pierce, I'll EP him tomorrow, I do think he has enough charisma and scheming cred to qualify.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Speaking of movies... I forgot about something. Any other Star Wars villains that qualify as an MB other than Thrawn in your opinion?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Redwall dudes, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sly Cooper, even if I do love the guy.
EP time!
What's the work?
Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel! is an interquel to Borderlands and Borderlands 2, which, I should disclose, is a series famous for its penchant for lolrandom internet comedy. Long before he got control of the Hyperion corporation and fucked everything up in Borderlands 2, Handsome Jack was just a low level coder in charge of the Helios space station, observing the hellhole of a planet known as Pandora. He was minding his own business (probably) when he was suddenly attacked by space terrorists known as the Lost Legion, who aimed to destroy both Pandora and Elpis, one of Pandora's moons, by using Helios' DEADLY LASER WEAPON to empty Elpis' core and have the planets crash into each other. Jack, together with 1-4 Vault Hunters, decided to stop the Legion and save both worlds!
Who is Colonel Zarpedon?
Tungsteena Zarpedon is a woman with a goal, a plan, and a very over-the-top name. She is the leader of the Lost Legion, and spearheaded the attack on Helios, massacring everybody aboard to assure total control of the space station. When the efforts to save Jack from her clutches in the opening mission ultimately fail, Jack stays aboard and saves his henchman by shooting them out of Helios' Moonshot Cannon onto Elpis, in the hopes that they can find the jamming signal preventing Helios' teleportation devices from working.
It's revealed later that Zarpedon had opened Elpis' Vault, which is basically a fancy ancient alien facility full of knowledge and living eldritch superweapons. After discovering the contents within, she decided the keep the secrets of the Vault from human hands. When Jack decided to hunt for the Vault himself, Zarpedon realized that eventually somebody will reach the Vault no matter what, and knowing that the rewards of the Vault could endanger the entire universe, she sets off on her plan to destroy Elpis itself.
As the Vault Hunters make their way through the game, Zarpedon does everything she can to slow them down, while assuring them that she doesn't want to fight them and offers to get them off of Elpis any time they want. In the event that they fulfill the last request of one of her soldiers, she'll thank the Hunters for their kindness and leads them to a stash of guns as a reward. Later, in one of her audio logs, she gives an announcement to her soldiers that its somebody's birthday, and invites them all to come. She says it's not mandatory, but that there will be delicious cake if they attend.
After making a final stand against Jack and the Vault Hunters, where she does everything in her power to keep them from regaining control of the station, she ultimately meets her defeat. In her final moments, she admits to Jack that she opened the Vault, but right as she's about to warn him of what she saw, Jack shoots her in the face, because he's a dick.
Is she Smart?
If she ever has the power to, Zarpedon will constantly make attempts to stop the Vault Hunters and Jack from doing anything, usually by sending in grunts to sabotage their efforts. In addition, she bribes the Meriff of Concordia into helping her reach Helios, and goads the bandit Deadlift, who previously blew her off for putting him in jail, into attacking the Vault Hunters by telling him that they think his Jump Pads are stupid.
The only reason why she fails is because she's dealing with people who are bigger badasses than she can handle.
Is she a Bastard?
Can't get much more Bastard than killing the entire populations of two whole planets. Overall, she's a little too hasty to bother minimizing the collateral damage of her actions. In addition, when Jack decides to murder a group of scientists on the off-chance one of them is a traitor, Zarpedon will actually ring him up and praise him, saying that she'd have done the same thing in the name of saving more lives than what was lost.
Is she Charming?
Easily. She's honorable, brave, behaves like a mother towards her men, and treats the Vault Hunters with endless respect. Her end goal, while utterly brutal, is also done with the intention of saving the universe at large, and treats the loss of life as a sacrifice. She knows that what she does is horrible, but believes it must be done. It helps that she's completely right, considering what Jack does in Borderlands 2 after reaching the Vault himself, as well as the implication that him digging too deep into the Vault triggered a chain reaction that's going to fuck over the entire universe. She even has a daughter, for whom she left behind a message warning her leave Elpis as soon as possible, and that she regretted not getting to see her grow up.
The only undignified thing about her is her incredibly silly name - the Vault Hunters and Jack all make fun of her for it - but even then, Jack states that's more on her parents than anybody else and it only really happens at the start of the game. Outside of that, she's never on the receiving end of the game's lolrandom comedy.
It helps that she's dealing with Handsome Jack. Like, if this trope was a cupcake, Jack would be the gross week old lasagna that was left on the counter the whole time.
Verdict?
Seems good to me.
Edited by DocSharp on Aug 21st 2018 at 1:28:32 AM
Yup to Zarpedon. Jack's a fantastic villain but I'd agree wholeheartedly he's nowhere close to this trope.
Zarpedon.
So the general consensus is that Wendy Testaburger doesn't qualify, that fine because the general consensus has also said that her AHS counterpart Ally Mayfair-Richards does qualify, so without a further due hear's Ally's write-up.
- American Horror Story: Cult: Ally Mayfair-Richards was initially The Paranoiac, but would become much more fearless and conniving. After being released from a psychiatric ward she would soon seek vengeance on Kai Anderson and his cult for tormenting her. She integrated herself into the cult where she manipulated Kai into killing his sibblings and his most loyal followers on the pretense that they were turning against him; Ally also kills her own wife for joining Kai's cult, partaking in her torment and taking her son away from her. She would then have the FBI raid Kai's hideout completely dismantling his cult and arresting Kai. Decided to steal Kai's plan to run for a seat in the Senate, Ally would then arrange Kai's escape from prison, only to have him publicly humiliate on live-television before having him killed. Winning a seat in the Senate and later starting her own cult, Ally Mayfair-Richard undoubtedly proves that there is something more dangerous in this world than a humiliated man: a nasty woman.
Also I was planning to EP James Patrick March here but decided not to it since in a few posts back made me remember him having a demon rape people, which rape is an automatic disqualifier (Personally or by Proxy). Shame though since he was such a charismatic, intelligent, and all-around great villain who like Ally got away with his crimes.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 20th 2018 at 11:13:42 PM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Meh... Even though i haven't watch AHS... I didn't feel it for March. But ill let others like Lighty know
Goku Black
Zarpedon
He's not just a rapist by proxy. In a sickening flashback, JPM rapes and slashes an innocent woman at the same time.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 21st 2018 at 1:17:03 PM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
That and the shit that he says in CM quotes page kind of ruined the magnificent part for me and made him a nasty bastard than before.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 21st 2018 at 6:21:45 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Zarpedon
yes to Zarpedon as well.
Seems Sly doesn't count. No worry there, glad he got the shake. I'll have more proposals up soon.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Colonel Zarpedon
Alrighty, here's a new one:
What's the work?
Ash vs. The Evil Dead is a continuation of the seminal Evil Dead series starring Ashley Williams. A laid back slacker who gets roped into a supernatural battle against the monstrous Deadites; Kandarian demons who possess the dead, once awakened by the Necronomicon ex Mortis...when the series begins, Ash has dealt with the Deadites multiple times and is now a wasted old slacker, most of his friends and loved ones are dead and he's estranged from his father and hometown who think he's a murderer. When the Deadites awaken, Ash sets on a mission to stop them, leading him to find that he is the Prophesied One to save the world and also uncovers the origins of the Necronomicon. One major character now? Ruby, one of the Dark Ones, half human/demons who once ruled the earth. Ruby is the one who wrote the book and becomes an ally of Ash and team to stop her demonic offspring and ex husband, the demon Baal.
Now, thanks to time travel shenanigans I'm here to discuss the Ruby from the past...who never does have that Heel-Face turn...
Who is Ruby?
Once known as Mulier Daemonium de Igne . Located in the past by time travel, Ruby allies again with her husband Baal, who Ash challenges to a single combat duel with the conditions Baal and the demons be banished back to hell should Ash win. Ruby, sick of Baal, actually adheres to the deal to destroy and banish him once he loses, but remains on earth to bide her time and defeat Ash, the Savior, in modern day.
She disguises herself as a guidance counselor at Ash's hometown of Elk Grove to get close to Ash's long-lost daughter Brandy Barr, who he had no idea existed....and begins making Ash appear insane while turning Brandy against him. Ruby also learns that the seal keeping the Dark Ones is weakening, unleashing the Dark Ones who Ruby helped seal off. Ruby allies with her old friend Kaya, also sealed off in the rift. Kaya is a traitor to the Knights of Sumeria, a sect formed to fight the Deadites, who Ruby once nearly wiped out. Ruby vows to free her once she finds a suitable vessel for her.
Ruby begins subverting Ash's relationship with brandy as she guides her new demonic child to grow and take Ash's place as a savior, while also fighting one of Ash's allies Kelly, and killing her, while making her Kaya's new body. Anticipating Ash returning to the school to confront her, Ruby has her grown demon child infiltrate the prom to slaughter students to frame Ash. Using Kaya possessing Kelly's body Ruby has her infiltrate the good guys and subvert them as well. Ruby uses the evil Ash to make Brandy distrust Ash, though the real Ash appears at the same time with the double, killing Ruby's child. Ruby almost kills Ash if not for Brandy taking the hit for him. Realizing the Dark One assault is coming, she captures one knight of Sumeria as a backup, making a new Necronomicon from Zoe's blood and flesh to protect herself from the Dark Ones. Ash interrupts to finish things with Ruby and in the fight, the Dark Ones intervene. Knowing the jig is up, Ruby issues a final cry of defiance: "Go on you bastards, take me! Soon you will suffer the same fate! The savior of humanity will destroy you all!" before the Dark Ones tear her soul out, leaving her to crumble to ashes.
Is she charming? Charismatic? A good schemer?
Yes. Ruby is extremely pleasant and personable. She's very charismatic, and likable, even as a villain (ntably when she and Kelly fight, Ruby keeps trying to talk her out of it and when Kelly is mortally wounded, Ruby admits "I hated you the last, Kelly" as she dies). She puts on a terrific act as the guidance counselor and as a schemer? She's terrific. She manipulates everyone for most of the season from Ash to Baal, to Brandy and all Elk Grove, and forms new schemes when those fail. The only reason they fail is Ash in the end and some circumstances she couldn't foresee, but she never loses her cool.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
She's absolutely very, very, very evil. She manipulates Brandy, has innocent people killed, feeds people to her son and uses Zoe's blood and flesh to make a new Necronomicon...she's a would-be conqueror and she's evil as hell. Of course, despite this, Ruby does have some standards. She cares for her children the Deadites, she cares for her friend Kaya and she has a measure of honor to her, honoring the deal Baal agreed to, much to Baal's own shock. Her ultimate goal is to rule over earth to present an order to evil, so it's not chaotic, and when she dies? She spends her final moments cursing the Dark Ones and refusing to die a coward, trusting Ash to destroy them.
Conclusion?
I'd give Past Ruby an easy yes.
Past Ruby.
Edited by lrrose on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:34:44 AM
Goku Black
past ruby
Edited by miraculous on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:41:30 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Goku Black
NVMND: Accidental double post. Ignore.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 21st 2018 at 7:41:00 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Here's Pierce.
What is the work?
The work is Captain America: The Winter Soldier.
Who is the character?
The character is Alexander Pierce, the Big Bad of the film.
What does he do?
Pierce was an old friend of Nick Fury, the director of SHIELD, and was the person who appointed him to such a position. Pierce was also a member of the World Security Council, a conglomorate of international politicians who provided oversight for SHIELD, and was the Secretary of Defense for the United States. Secretly, however, Pierce was also a high-ranking member of HYDRA, a secret terrorist-paramilitary organization bent on world domination, and numerous other SHIELD personnel were also of the group.
After the events of The Avengers and the alien invasion of New York, the World Security Council ordered the development of "Project Insight" to tighten up international security. Project Insight would use three helicarriers in constant surveillance of the planet, synchronized via a satellite targeting system, to proactively seek out potential threats and eliminate them before they became dangerous. However, HYDRA secretly hijacked the project for their own purposes; using an algorithm by the scientist Arnim Zola, Project Insight would be used to eliminate anyone deemed a threat to HYDRA and its goals of world conquest.
Suspicious of the direction of Project Insight as they entered the final days before launch, Fury hired the mercenary Georges Batroc to attack the Lemurian Star, the launchpoint for the project's satellites, and then dispatched Steve Rogers and SHIELD to take back the ship; it was a cover operation for Natasha Romanoff to steal files on Project Insight. Fury asked Pierce to delay the launch to confirm the project is sound and Pierce agreed, but upon interrogating Batroc realized what Fury had done. He dispatched the Winter Soldier, HYDRA's covert elite assassin, to kill Fury. With Fury's apparent death, Pierce became the de facto leader of SHIELD.
Pierce spoke to Rogers about what Fury had done, attempting to convince him that Fury had begun to work against SHIELD, and asked why Fury had come to see Rogers before he was killed. Rogers, having been warned by Fury to trust no one within SHIELD, feigned ignorance. Pierce allowed him to leave but dispatched a squadron of HYDRA/SHIELD agents to attack Rogers in the elevator. Rogers fended them off and fled the SHIELD complex, going on the run with Romanoff. Pierce used Rogers' suspicious behavior about Fury's death and this fight to declare him a rogue agent and an enemy of SHIELD. Pierce also spoke to the rest of the World Security Council, who voted to halt the delay on Project Insight's launch in light of Fury's apprently treachery. Pierce continued to send HYDRA agents to apprehend Rogers and Romanoff, but they were unsuccessful. Following the two meeting Arnim Zola and learning the true purpose of Project Insight, Pierce dispatched the Winter Soldier to take care of them.
On the day Project Insight was set to active, Pierce invited the other Council members to SHIELD headquarters to oversee the launch of the helicarriers, asking them to wear ID badges while in the compound. Rogers and his allies infiltrated the base and Rogers delivered a speech where he revealed the plans of Pierce and HYDRA. Pierce gave the command to have HYDRA operatives launch the helicarriers as other agents entered the room to hold the Council hostage. One of the Council members revealed herself to be a disguised Romanoff, and she executed the HYDRA agents and held Pierce at gunpoint while Fury arrived, having survived his assassination attempt. The two forced Pierce to use his security clearance to grant full access to SHIELD's files to be dumped online to expose everything they and HYDRA had done. As the situation continued to unfold, Pierce used a device to activate explosive devices in the ID tags he had given the Council members, killing them. Threatening Romanoff with the same, he ordered her to take him to a helicopter and fly him to safety.
Romanoff used a shock disk to temporarily deactivate the ID badge, giving Fury an opening to shoot Pierce. He died whispering the worlds "Hail HYDRA".
Is he a bastard?
As a leader within HYDRA, Pierce is dedicated to their objective of taking control of the world through oppression and subterfuge. He oversaw work on Project Insight, which would kill HYDRA's enemies, not only those currently living but those that may become threats in the future. It is seen in the film that over 700,000 thousand people were targets for the first round of strikes; Pierce implies the Project will kill 20 million people. Pierce orders the assassination of his old friend Nick Fury, and personally kills his fellow Council members and his housekeeper, the latter just because she happened upon him speaking to the Winter Soldier. Pierce shows no hesitation or doubts about his actions and the actions of HYDRA, rationalizing that they will create a peaceful world under their rule and no sacrifice is too great to achieve that vision.
Is he magnificent?
To everyone else, Pierce is a polite and affable man. Nick Fury considers him a close friend for years, and says that Pierce had been offered the Nobel Peace Prize and declined it, as "peace wasn't an achievement, it was a responsibility." When dealing with enemies and friends alike Pierce maintains this facade of calm professionalism, never being shown to lose his cool or grow anxious. When Steve Rogers denounces him and reveals his true alliances to all of SHIELD, Pierce calmly continues to give orders on his mobile device and wait for HYDRA agents to arrive to take the Council hostage. While held at gunpoint and forced to aid Romanoff and Fury, Pierce was disdainful of them but went along with them until he had an opportunity to reverse his situation again. When Fury, who Pierce believed was dead, revealed himself, Pierce believed Fury saw things his way and would listen to reason as Pierce explained how this is "the next step" in world security, but Fury was unmoved.
Conclusion
Pierce became one of the most powerful men in government and in SHIELD while secretly being a HYDRA agents who took control of the organization for Project Insight, and almost succeeded in using it to kill hundreds of thousands of people that would stand in the organization's path to world conquest.
After discussing with Lighty, we agreed on another Warcraft keeper, so here's his entry:
- Loken was one of the Keepers tasked by the Titans to watch over Azeroth and the imprisoned Old Gods, but over time was corrupted by Yogg-Saron and betrayed the other Keepers and their allies. After accidentally killing Sif, his brother Thorim's wife, Loken framed the ice giants which started a war between Thorim and them; he then convinced Helya to turn against her father Odyn and lock him and his army away, arranged for Mimiron's 'accidental' death, subdued and captured Freya and Hodir when they were on their own, and sent the monstrous C'thraxxi to kill or scare away the rest. For his most ambitious plot, Loken took the form of the witch Lok'lira and played on the player character's Chronic Hero Syndrome by subtly guiding them into performing seemingly altruistic actions — rescuing a slave, repairing friendships, helping Thorim get through his depression — all to make Thorim brave enough to confront Loken when in fact he was being lured into a trap. Having systematically eliminated anyone who could pose a threat to him, Loken forged the Keepers' records and crowned himself Prime Designate, both to cover his crimes and to make sure that, if he were to be killed anyway, his death would send a signal telling Algalon to wipe all life on Azeroth.
On another note, I noticed the Video Game page for the trope lacks a quote. I think it only fitting that my personal pick for Most Magnificent of the Bastards have his name up there.
- "Hark! Ivalice hails her true Dynast-King, Vayne Solidor! He shall defy the will of the Gods, and see the reins of history back in the hands of Man! His time is nigh!"Judge Bergan, on Vayne Solidier, Final Fantasy XII
Yes to the above, as well as the quote. Now, while I'm re-reading Scraggle's work, here's something I've been working on as a tagteam with Lighty:
What is the work?
Psycho-Pass 2 is the fittingly titled second season of the anime. Taking place two years after Makishima's terrorist attacks on Tokyo, Akane seeks to recovery from the disappearance of Kōgami. With Ginoza's hue clouded turning him from Inspector to Enforcer, they, along with newly made Inspector Mika Shimotsuki and a new team of enforcers, including the aloof Tōgane. With the same controversial, oppressive Sibyl System causing unrest amongst the new population, a new threat to upset the status quo, seeking vengeance against it and our candidate tonight.
Who is Kamui? What has he done?
A charming criminal, Kirito Kamui specializes in using therapy techniques and his own mixture of medicine tailored to the specific individual to relieve people of their clouded crime coefficients and allow them to operate in society even as they take violent extremes to get his plans done. Behind the first episode's villain—a demolitions expert—Kamui keeps him calm until they plan to have his hue raise after a particular explosion (all of which are purposely planned to not hurt anyone) to lure out the MWPSB operatives. After leading them on a chase which ends in his minion being caught, Kamui uses one of his holo disguises, a registered MWPSB therapist, to calm the man back down below a judgement raising crime coefficient, allowing him to be taken from MWPSB and follow a pre-planned escape route left by Kamui.
Later, Kamui kidnaps MWPSB Inspector Shisui after killing her enforcer, taking her eye to trick her Dominator into registering him as her and allowing him to use it. Genuinely remorseful of removing her eyeball, Kamui calms her down as he has with his other followers, using knowledge of her past to help calm her down and keep her happy. Using the Inspector, Kamui lures another Inspector, Aoyanagi, into a trap where one of his followers who has undergone his therapy, takes a group of hostages in a pharmacy while Kamui poses as a hostage pharmacist to connect with Aoyanagi. This results in Aoyanagi being forced to try and kill the man who did the takeover, raising her own crime coefficient to the highest level in the building and resulting in her accidentally being gruesomely killed by a Dominator blast. This provides Kamui with another answer he sought: Inspectors themselves can be judged by Dominators.
Luring MWPSB personal to a remote drone servicing location after his tampering with one led them to follow the lead, Kamui rigs a video game update to lead to unknowing players controlling the drones and slaughtering the MWPSB who are searching. As the Enforcers fan out to stop the drones, this allows Kamui and Shisui to take advantage of the Enforcers' latent criminal status to execute them with her Dominator and then collect the ones from the deceased Enforcers. To put an end to Kamui's plot, the MWPSB are forced to reveal to the population the death they caused inadvertently in the video game, resulting in a slew of latent criminal for them to deal with.
We are told of Kamui's past as the sole survivor of a horrific plane crash along with 184 of his classmates thanks to a disruption in traffic signals thanks to a precursor to the Sibyl System (the time known as the "Season of Hell"). Persuading the doctor who performed an experimental surgery on him, Kamui has important figures from society replaced with illegal immigrants sympathetic to his cause, allowing them to masquerade as powerful people to aid in his cause. Hosting a dinner party with his friend and former classmate, Kamui murders the allied politicians he sees as having taken advantage of the pain and suffering during the Season of Hell and moves to the endgame of his plan. Trapping trains in a depot, Kamui has his supporters use Dominators to knock out the captives within, the amount of use causing Sibyl's backup system to have to be used and allowing his team to surmise the physical location. When the MWPSB try to blow a hole in the train depot, Shisui reveals Kamui had the bomb maker from the first episode rig the explosives so they could control the timers and detonators. His rhetoric piquing the interest of Akane, she goes with him to the physical location of Sibyl, where he forces it to begin judging both itself and others as a collective, removing many brains that Sibyl previously misjudged as being truly criminally asymptomatic. Although he dies in a Mutual Kill with Togane, Kamui dies happy that he got his judgement on Sibyl, revealing that he did not vengefully hate it but merely wanted it to become a true benevolent guide for humanity and leaves his ideals with Akane in the hopes she will continue making it better for people.
How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?
Like Makishima before him, Kamui is a charming, intelligent and likable fellow but differs in that while for Makishima his social relations were just a means to an end, Kamui genuinely cares about his comrades, even as he sacrifices them and truly works for the betterment of society. In terms of competition for scheming within his series, he's up against Togane and the Sibyl System itself. While it does continue to exist even after his passing, Kamui leaves behind the ideas to change it into a kinder force to actually help people instead of the oppressive dictator it currently is. He also manages to put a huge dent by removing the countless non-criminally asymptomatic brains it previously misjudged, making a huge stride for other like Akane to carry on his work.
Mitigating factors?
Now, the big thing here is Kamui—like many of the elements of 2—catches a lot of flak for not being season 1. Makishima is dead and gone and that's enough to upset a good portion of the fandom. That being said, while he's a Base-Breaking Character, I'm more inclined to judge him for his own merits, especially since he never breaks into Scrappy territory. Kamui excels at forcing the MWPSB into the situation he needs them in, meticulously setting up plans so they'll almost certainly be forced to play into his plans and can improvise as needed.
The other thing I'd like to mention is he never hits Villain Sue territory. Along with the now more active Sibyl System, he's something of a Big Bad Ensemble here and even though he technically ends up on the losing end, manages to do an absurd amount of damage against his opponent despite the vast differences in resources. Never is he strung along by someone else and even in his final moments gets to Go Out with a Smile, knowing he's taken steps towards eventually giving the world a more caring ruler.
Verdict
I know he's a Base-Breaking Character but I certainly found him one of the stronger elements in Psycho Pass' weaker second season and I think he deserves a spot.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yes to all of the above and i wouldn't mind Kamui going up.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Yea to the above and now, the second Psycho Pass baddie:
Who is Shogo Makishima?
The world's greatest criminal mind. White haired, golden eyed, the ultimate nemesis of hero Shinya Kogami. Shogo Makishima is a criminally asymptomatic killer out to tear society down and create the paradise he desires: by annihilating the SIBYL system, to liberate its citizens...except his version of salvation is a dark one.
Makishima believes the 'splendor of people's souls' is defined by them giving into their darkest desires. Now, Makishima remains largely offscreen for a while, but it is revealed he is acting as a sort of messiah and corrupter, awakening people with dark ratings by having them embrace their desires to become murderers, having them kill to draw the attention of the police and eventually abandoning them to their fates, including the twisted Rikako Oryo, who Makishima makes into a protege. When Rikako goes against his plans and gets caught, Makishima has her eliminated while elegantly quoting from Titus Andronicus. He has his proxy, the human hunter Toyohisa Senguji orders to target Shinya, seeking to decide if Shinya is a worthy adversary. Shinya then uses the heroine Akane's friend, Yuki as bait to lure her in as well, while rigging the hunt for Kogami to give him a fighting chance. Makishima encounters Akane and proves immune to her Dominator, which cannot judge him as he is criminally aysmptomatic, Pure Is Not Good basically...disgusted by her inability to grab a gun, he cuts Yuki's throat and escapes.
Now, the secret of the SIBYL system? Makishima draws people out by setting up riots so he can try to get close and destroy the system, intending on being a diversion himself while sending his right hand man to the system's core. Kogami catches up with Makishima who defeats him, though he's captured by Akane....it turns out, the SIBYL system is made up of criminally asymptomatic brains, including Kozaburo, a criminal Makishima knew, who joined the hive mind, and rotate turns as to who is ina robot body to control the police bureau. Kozaburo offers for Makishima to join the group, but Makshishima, revolted at the idea breaks free and kills Kozaburo, declaring his interest is in the individual, in overthrowing the SIBYL system, stating "I love this game with all my heart...and I wish to play it on my own terms for just a little longer!" Makishima goes on the run, planning on using a virus to destroy Japan's food supply to cause them to overthrow the system while forcing Shinya to chase him down. When he's caught by two of the heroes, Makishima forces one to sacrifice himself for the other (his own son) and escape....Makishima and Shinya end up in a final duel, where Shinya wins. Accepting his death, Makishima smiles and asks if Shinya will find someone else like Makishima with him gone. Shinya responds "I sure as hell hope not" and shoots Makishima through the back of the head.
Is he charming? Charismatic? A good schemer?
Makishima is Wicked Cultured. He's handsome, debonair, relaxed, pleasant, never raises his voice, always smiles and quotes classic literature and philosophy on the regular. He's intensely charismatic and charming, ruthlessly inspiring other budding psychopaths and killers as he wishes. As for plans? He almost overthrows the system twice, and he's a master of misdirection, playing others and eliminating them if they prove a threat. Makishima is a man waging a one-person war against a dystopian regime-and he's winning.
Also, I love when he rejects becoming part of the SIBYL system and his declaration to Kazburo.
Is he a bastard?
Well, he's a CM for a reason. Revolutionary or no, Makishima is a monster with no real good intnetion. He's obsessed with the dark side of human nature, believing freedom is the true path of humanity: the freedom to kill and destroy as one will. He's unbelievably dangerous and will kill people to prove a point, as well as destroy the entire country just to force them to 'wake up.' He is devoid of revolting crimes like torture or rape, mainly being a killer who's willing to destroy huge swaths of the country and manipulate others into becoming serial killers so he can savor things.
But as Is aid, he is devoid of most 'too disgusting' crimes and there's something about his drive and charisma and that makes him compelling too watch. He's evil as hell, but a great baddie.
Conclusion?
Like Kamui, I'd call Makishima a solid keeper.
They're obvious ones so I'd presume so - has anyone EP'd the big Marvel film candidates; Loki, Thanos, Zemo? I think Ivan Vanko, Alexander Pierce, and maybe The Vulture could also qualify.