During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Janet.
Black Thomas.
Osborne.
Freeze.
Sanguine.
Charlene.
That Blue Inkling
... I don't think that MEH can destroy villain's magnificence. I mean, you know how much MBs cross MEH? Kars, Yoshikage Kira, General Shepherd, Evelyn "Screenslaver" Deavor...
Edited by MikeySpletzer on Feb 3rd 2021 at 7:51:44 PM
MeeM
An MEH is the point of no return for a villain, plain and simple. The severity of it and how vile it is depends on the baddie, it's situational.
Star, just bring up your issues.
RIP Toriyama
Doofenshmirtz-2 absolutely doesn't hit—not because he's too evil or because of the toy train, he's simply just got the same personality failings as Doof-1. Such as the fact that—as I pointed out in the Charlene proposal—he's a cowardly weasel whose first reaction when cornered is to hide while his wife does all the work, then when she's ready to go out in a blaze of glory, he sheepishly and pathetically tries to surrender himself solely because he's scared for his life. He's a total Dirty Coward and the type of Psychopathic Manchild we don't want listed.
And yeah, as Lighty said, a MEH is no bar to counting for MB, tons of them cross it. Threatening Phineas-2 with being a cyborg may be Doof-2's MEH, but it alone wouldn't disqualify him—especially since we're upvoting Charlene-2 who tries the exact same thing on Ferb-2.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 3rd 2021 at 9:14:40 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Woagh
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wow, I was way off.
to Osborne, by the by.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 9:15:04 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
That Blue Inkling
Agree
The Moron
Okay, regarding Sigma.
The original EP very noticeably glosses over just how horrible Sigma's actions are in order to not make him come off too bad. If we consider that Sigma pretty much is the Meta in season 6, he's an absolute nightmare. By the end of the season, he's killed roughly 30 people and attempted to kill all of our protagonists multiple times, and part of the reason why it makes him such a Knight of Cerebus is that it's all played 100% seriously. Between the serious music, shift in story tone, and sheer brutality he emits (in fact, his Establishing Character Moment and the new season's Establishing Series Moment are the same moment - the aftermath of him killing at least five people to obtain Gamma, Beta, and Omega) makes him stand out.
Seasons 9 and 10 plays him entirely for creepiness as well. Yes, in terms of plans he is magnificent, but in terms of actions he's absolutely horrific and the show doesn't sugarcoat it at all. His brainwash and Mind Rape of Maine is largely offscreen, but it's still played for horror the few times we see it, and he's shown to be smiling at Alpha's torture, meaning he's capable of sadism. Ultimately, when he finally takes Maine over at the end of the season, his first act is to betray Carolina, rip her AIs out of her head, and toss her off of a cliff to her death, before telling a fleeing Tex that "We are the Meta" with a Slasher Smile. It's one of the most horrifying moments in the show to date.
In case there's any doubt, just check out the "Recollection" and "Freelancer" folders on the show's Nightmare Fuel page. Roughly a third of the entries in those folders involve Sigma, and he's currently the page image.
Overall, Sigma is a definite Manipulative Bastard and his goal might not be inherently harmful, but his actions catapult him so far past the Moral Event Horizon that I don't think he qualifies for this trope. The show definitely puts more focus on how terrifying and unstoppable he is than on his coolness - in fact, even at the end of the EP, the OP even quantifies the post by saying that they wouldn't be surprised if he was too evil. Yes, Evil Is Cool is in effect as well, but that's largely for Maine, not for Sigma himself, so that doesn't quite apply here.
Sorry for rambling, but I didn't want to miss anything.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 12:53:46 PM
Lies and Violence!
Think I made these too long. Should I cut Sanguine's down?
- Skulduggery Pleasant
- Billy-Ray Sanguine is a self-styled hitman "deluxe", and grows to be far more intelligent and perceptive than his prominent sociopathic and Laughably Evil Butt-Monkey characterization would suggest. Killing a group of rich college psychopaths in a desire to not be defined by his job as a "bad guy", Sanguine forms the Revengers' Club for revenge against Valkyrie Cain. Abandoning his vendetta upon learning that she is descended from the Faceless Ones, knowing she has much greater suffering on the horizon, Sanguine enters into a relationship with the Remnant-infected Tanith Low, and happily assists her in protecting Cain. Helping Tanith to find the God-Killers that could kill her Dark Messiah Darquesse, Sanguine pretends to destroy them but secretly keeps them for himself, not wanting to doom the world and making himself even more dangerous. Serving as a spy for Skulduggery within the ranks of Darquesse's minions, Sanguine pushes Tanith to turn against her messiah, and rescues her afterwards even though she subsequently lost her memories of their time together. Always armed with a witty personality and genuinely loving her, Sanguine ultimately dies in a fight to protect Tanith from the Black Cleaver.
- Dusk is a vampire infamous for holding grudges. Joining Billy-Ray Sanguine's Revengers' Club for the opportunity to get back at both Valkyrie Cain for scarring him and fellow member Spring-Heeled Jack for assisting in his previous defeat, Dusk convinces Sanguine to drop the vendetta against Cain when he tastes the blood of the Faceless Ones in her. After helping Sanguine and Tanith Low in exchange for the identity of the vampire who sired him, Moloch, Dusk waits for him to leave his lair and kills him before he can bring reinforcements to the Irish Sanctuary. In an unprecedented deal Dusk gathers other vampires who have been exiled for killing their own kind, offering their services to now Grand Mage China Sorrows in exchange for housing, rights, and serum to prevent them from changing into monsters by night. Later making amends with Valkyrie, Dusk reluctantly tells her the truth of her ancestry, giving her his condolences for the horrifying revelation.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 3rd 2021 at 11:07:23 AM
Satoshi do you have a retort to Star's arguments?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Scary as presented in the story and charming as received by the audience are not mutually exclusive. Scary is not the same thing as disgusting. We have proposed plenty villains who are primarily scary before. Pain and Tobi are more scary than charming, but they count as MBs.
I don't really see any of that as inherently disqualifying. The sadism gives me a tiny bit of pause, but honestly all of the other stuff strikes me as Creepy Awesome charm.
The Dragon
Keep Sigma.
I used to have issues with Aiden Price being up due to his willingness to participate in genocide just to save his own hide, but I was convinced otherwise.
Just because they are scary doesn't mean they can't be a MB. We got fucking Candyman up afterall.
The wifi here sucks
I'm leaning keep on Sigma, we have creepy characters who count.
Also here's the Sandbox
The Moron
For me above all, it's not just the sadism, it's the pointless killing. Even if we disregard the Valhalla Reds since some were dead when he got there, he kills the Rat's Nest Blues for what I can only assume is Leave No Witnesses (even though they saw and know nothing) and high scale massacres the Freelancer command soldiers, plus he ultimately forces Maine to kill several of his former friends. It's cruel, and it's clear that he's enjoying it. Price at least has the excuse of protecting his own ass, Sigma doesn't even have that.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'm glad someone familiar with the game could take that; easy to the Jackal
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:15:45 PM
Also, a few pages back, Star brought up The Jackel from Far Cry 2, and asked if someone who played the game could bring him up.
Since he doesn't appear to be listed, or discussed from what I could find, and as someone who did play the game, I figure I could give him a shot.
What is the work ?
Far Cry 2 is an installment (but not the second one, if we are counting the originals remake) in the Far Cry series, and took the series to a more grounded approached compared to the more sci-fi installments.
Playing as a silent, nondescript mercenary, the player is thrust into an unnmaned but war torn African country, where civilians are still trying to flee, and there is a very tenious ceasefire between factions. Their mission ? To hunt and kill the infamous arms dealer, The Jackal, who is funding both sides. Unfortunately ? The player gets malaria before the first cutscene ends, and the Jackal gives them the slip. Now you, (and your fellow mercenaries) must work for and against both factions in a bid to get to the Jackal, getting more and more involved in the war itself, and the factions' conflict with a resistance movement.
Enter the Jackal himself.
Who is the Jackal ? What does he do ?
Ostensibly the main antagonist of the game, the Jackal is a infamous and dangerous arms dealer who has been in this war for sometime, supplying weapons to warlords on all sides. Every gun, bullet and corpse can supposedly be traced back to the Jackal himself. As said above, the player quickly becomes sick with malaria, and encounters the Jackal in a hotel room, where the Jackal belittles them for their screwup and threatens to kill them, before deciding to leave them be and give them Nietzsche's speech about the power of will.
After the player is roped into working for different warlords, and does several successful missions, the player is inevitable betrayed by the warlords they're working for. They are soon left for dead, but are unexpectedly rescued by the Jackal who patches them up in a hut. The Jackal gives the player a lecture about war, how it corrupts people and how a ceasefire is bad news for the civilian populace. He expressly compares war to cancer, and how every soldier is a cell (as it turns out, the Jackal himself has brain cancer).
After the player is roped into working for a new set of warlords after the previous ones where killed, the player does more missions before they are tasked with delivering blood diamonds for another a peace settlement. When the player gets to the diamonds, they find the outpost has been slaughtered, and the new warlord assassinated by the Jackal, who overpowers the player and steals the diamonds. The Jackal gives another speech about how he intends to continue the war, talking about how both factions will turn their bloodlust on the civilian population. Afterwards, the Jackal leaves the player to take the fall for the diamonds loss, and the warlords death.
Towards the end of the game, the Jackal encounters the player again in an abandoned prison, where it's revealed that the Jackal is an ally of sorts to an otherwise pacifist resistance movement, trying to help refugees flee the country. The last of the civilians are under threat of genocide by these factions and are being hunted down. The Jackal gives the player their final tasks; steal back the diamonds from their mercenary friends (killing them in the process), and assassinating the last of the warlords.
In the final mission, the Jackal tells reveals his plan to set off explosives along a mountain that would keep the factions at bay, long enough for the civilians to flee, and to take the diamonds and bribe the border guards, under the condition that whoever takes the diamonds shoots themselves in the head to keep "the cancer" from spreading. No matter what option the player takes, the Jackal takes the other option, presumably fulfilling his end of the suicide mission. The last of the refugees cross the border, and the country falls into a Forever War.
How is he Magnificent ?
Throughout the game, he is shown to be an intelligent, insightful and talkative guy who understands how pointless and horrible the war is. While he's supplying both factions, his motivations turn out to be trying to help the civilians escape and leave the country to burn. The player can find this audio tapes from an interview the Jackal had with a journalist. Bit by bit, the player starts to wonder if they are really the bad guy, especially with all the points the Jackal makes.
It's one of those "War Is Hell" stories that show how war corrupts people, and highlights this in a pretty blunt way; warlords trying to bring order to their land ? They're eventually going to become opportunistic bastards who will screw over the people living under them. The mercenary buddies the player makes throughout the game, even the ones who want to help people ? They're all Secretly Selfish and will try to steal blood diamonds off the player, forcing the player to kill them in one of the games final missions. The Jackal spells it out to us that war is a cancer, that will only spread and destroy the people involved; not so coincidentally, he is someone who has cancer himself. He talks about how all the people back home want to "help" the people caught in the conflict, but unlike them, he is willing to do something about it.
His plans pretty much goes off without a hitch; his plans manage to save the last of the refugees, and he always comes out on top with every encounter he has with the player. By the end of the game, you pretty much end up doing his grunt work, and working with him in the same suicide mission.
Is He Too Much of a Bastard ?
He is an arms dealer, and is responsible for funding both sides of the conflict, to the point that supposedly every body can be traced back to him; he isn't too ruthless in his goals (the worse thing he does on screen is frame you for the killing of a warlord); his goal boils down to is leaving the country in a Forever War, but at the very least keeping innocent people out of it.
On the flipside, the game goes out of it's way to show how horrible people are when they get in too deep into the war. The only innocents in this are the refugees the Jackal and the player ultimately try to save. The warlords and factions in general are trying to wipe out the other side, and when they're not, they are trying to wipe out innocent people trying to flee from them. In short, even if the Jackal is a "bad guy", he is a far cry from the worst of them.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Also, Sigma is not that sadistic. Like at all.
We don’t see him actually enjoying his actions. Hell, we barely see him at all during Season 6, where he doesn’t even have a face. He shows no regret in his actions, but he’s not going around torturing his victims. He kills people whom he comes across, but it comes off as more to keep them from interfering than taking pleasure in causing death.
Besides, if we used that as a factor, we would have to cut a lot of characters from the trope.
Jackal.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:17:09 PM
Very easy yea to the Jackal.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Jackal.
Keep Sigma.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 3rd 2021 at 12:17:46 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lies and Violence!
To the Jackal.
Changing my mind on Sigma. He's also a CM, right? Of course he'll have a few overly sadistic moments. I'm nowhere near an expert, but as long as the magnificence isn't completely overshadowed or degraded by the sadism (like good old emperor palps) it's fine, right?
Gotta love Jaws!
to the Jackal and given what Satoshi says I'll say keep Sigma, I seriously need to get around to watching that show.
The Moron
Fair enough, all. Just glad I got around to discussing it
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:20:45 PM
Goku Black
Jackal
I'm prepared to give Sanguine a , but I really would like some elaboration on Remnants. You don't have to EP Tanith just explain why that's not rapey.
Jackal.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 1:52:00 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
That's fair. Not doing EP yet, but just explaining it here:
Remnants are, for lack of a better term, spirits that can possess people and really like destruction. When they're removed the host loses all of their memories from when they were possessed, and if they possess someone for more than five days the bond is permanent (unless a certain Dark Messiah physically rips it out and brings the host back to life).
However, calling what Remnants do "possession" isn't very accurate, just the best term to describe it. Actually, "infect" might be better. They don't completely take someone over, and have their best description given as "flying balls of intent." The Remnants remove the host's morality, give them the drive for destruction and a few memories from previous hosts - but for all intents and purposes they're still the same person. Just a sociopath now. And, with some work, they can rebuild their conscience, and fully become the person they were before infection.
That's how it's, repeatedly, explained as in the books. Make of it as you will.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Feb 3rd 2021 at 11:04:57 AM
Um, so speaking of Red Vs. Blue, I saw that Sigma was up there, and was like "wait a minute, how is he not too much of a bastard?" So I found the original EP
, and I understand where they're coming from, but I have a severe issue with it, so should I just state my grievance here or do a whole EP on why I think he doesn't count?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Feb 3rd 2021 at 11:51:51 AM