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Deadlock Clock: Aug 25th 2018 at 11:59:00 PM
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Mar 7th 2018 at 3:33:30 PM

Discovered this via a Trope Launch Pad proposal, Plausibly Deniable History.

Reality Retcon's description seems to be describing a general supertrope where the creator of a work deliberately altered history from what we know for narrative reasons (could be described as a form of Alternate History). However, it also has a redirect called Secret History, which is a preexisting term. The Other Wiki defines the term in a way similar to the draft Plausibly Deniable History:

A secret history (or shadow history) is a revisionist interpretation of either fictional or real history which is claimed to have been deliberately suppressed, forgotten, or ignored by established scholars. "Secret history" is also used to describe an alternative interpretation of documented facts which portrays a drastically different motivation or history from established historical events.

The draft, similarly, can be summed up as:

In-Universe, the public knows world history as what we in Real Life know, but this is because In-Universe actors have rewritten history to cover up the true story because reasons.

Reality Retcon and its redirect have about 70 wicks and ~500 inbounds between them. Use stats, picking every other wick. Any time I link to Secret History, I'm talking about The Other Wiki's definition.

Secret History the redirect has the following further wicks:

So, it looks to me like Reality Retcon is most commonly, but very inconsistently, used to mean Secret History. My proposal:

  1. Retitle Plausibly Deniable History to Secret History and launch it.
  2. Redirect Reality Retcon to Secret History.

edited 17th Mar '18 11:14:28 AM by StarSword

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Mar 11th 2018 at 7:00:57 PM

This currently seems to be serving as an index for various related tropes, which cover a slightly broader range than merely Secret History (as The Other Wiki defines it).

I think it's more-or-less fine as is, and think we should make Secret History into a separate trope, listed as a subtrope of this one, and based on the TLP thread which started all this.

Path of least resistance, and less opportunity for confusion and disruption.

edited 11th Mar '18 7:01:16 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Mar 11th 2018 at 7:42:46 PM

[up]Problem is, what is its definition? E.g. To use the gist of the current description, defining Reality Retcon as "work's history is different from Real Life" duplicates Alternate History and Artistic License – History (depending on the case).

edited 11th Mar '18 7:43:36 PM by StarSword

Mar 17th 2018 at 1:31:47 AM

It doesn't help that this is a remnant of the bad old days of the wiki before we really nailed down our policies and procedures.Here's the YKTTW discussion, which predates the formal YKTTW system, and which is on a version of what became the Archived Discussion page that got deleted at some point down the line. Despite the discussion seemingly referring to it as a full-fledged trope, the oldest Internet Archive copy of the page itself only includes links to other tropes. Those pages are from 2007, while the Archive doesn't record the Secret History redirect as existing prior to 2009.

edited 17th Mar '18 1:32:26 AM by MorganWick

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Mar 23rd 2018 at 3:55:35 PM

[up]Interesting, that. It looks like the page hasn't changed a whole lot, the description was still as unclear back then:

Writers never let the facts get in the way of a good story. If reality doesn't fit the plot, it can be changed. History and myth are the most common targets of this - it's much easier to convince the viewers that a 9th century pope was actually a woman disguised as a man than that the current pope is female.

When this Reality Retcon is a story premise Plausible Deniability is generally the aim, but the retcon remains a clear, deliberate, and direct contradiction of generally accepted facts.

From the discussion, it looks like the page was envisioned as a catchall "In-Universe history ≠ Real Life history" trope, inasmuch as it's talking about the writer making individual major alterations. Which, again, is basically redundant to Alternate History and enforced Artistic License – History. The OP also for some reason wanted the page to include "real events behind mythology", which is a different concept entirely. And all the archived versions of that discussion page are identical, and the earliest posted version of the page looks like this.

So yeah, basically it looks like the page never really had a clear, consistent definition or purpose to begin with.

edited 23rd Mar '18 3:55:50 PM by StarSword

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Mar 30th 2018 at 5:25:45 PM

Any other thoughts on this? Or should I go ahead and make a single prop crowner?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Mar 31st 2018 at 1:29:05 AM

What kind of options would go on such a crowner? I am seeing more than one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Mar 31st 2018 at 8:38:40 AM

[up]Ok, maybe there's two with what Xtifr said, but my OP only has a single proposal in it: steal the Secret History redirect for what is currently called Plausibly Deniable History, and redirect the current page Reality Retcon to it.

Another option might be to redirect Reality Retcon to Alternate History or possibly to Artistic License – History, but I'm leaning against doing either of those personally since it doesn't seem to be the primary thing Reality Retcon is currently used for (even though it's closer to what I believe to be the intended definition).

So maybe it's four proposals instead of just one.

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
May 4th 2018 at 5:04:43 PM

I believe that in-universe history being different from real history is too broad to be a trope itself.

Once we add the "for narrative reasons" criteria, we have our trope. The problem here is that the TLP proposal has since evolved into an entirely different trope, so we might not have that as an option anymore.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
May 6th 2018 at 8:37:01 AM

[up] I fail to see how deliberately changing history in a work relative to Real Life cannot be for narrative reasons. Although maybe what we really need to do is create that trope, perhaps as a smaller-scale version of full-on Alternate History, i.e. a trope where there's some intentional changes relative to real life but the rest of the work is Like Reality, Unless Noted. (Or possibly put those examples on LRUN. Could go several ways.)

Point is, though, the TLP draft does have a clear definition and a lot of wicks currently linked to Reality Retcon should go to it instead.

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
May 16th 2018 at 7:50:23 PM

[up] Exactly. Accidentally changing history relative to real life is not this trope.

Criteria for this trope would be something like:

  1. The history of the work's Earth diverges from the history of our Earth.
  2. The divergence occurs before the time period in which the work is set. Reasoning 
  3. The divergence is intentional on the part of the creator for narrative purposes. Reasoning 

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
May 19th 2018 at 3:08:22 PM

[up]Then the question becomes, can we use Alternate History for that or do we need to make a second trope? If so, where does that trope stop and Alternate History begin?

RallyBot2 America Held Hostage from Nowhere Significant Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
America Held Hostage
May 21st 2018 at 2:54:02 PM

[up] Alternate History generally refers specifically to speculative fiction. It's a genre, and our page for it is a bit too broad, including several entries that are just "the characters time-travel to the past and make things happen differently than they did in the original timeline."

[up][up] I'd also add:

4. The divergence must have a meaningful impact on the world in which the work is set.Reasoning 

SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:22:16 AM

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
Aug 22nd 2018 at 1:33:08 PM

So, um, is this still a thing? Or is this doomed to be another dead TRS thread?

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aug 22nd 2018 at 4:11:06 PM

Spin off Secret History into its own thing as per op, turn Reality Retcon into an example less supertrope/index for all the “fictional take on history” tropes, including Beethoven Was an Alien Spy, Alternate History, Secret History, maybe Dan Browned, etc.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Aug 25th 2018 at 4:35:28 PM

[up]We already have Alternate History Tropes for that.

I think we should consider another alternative: cut Reality Retcon altogether, since "a single change from our known past" is pretty much Like Reality, Unless Noted.

Edited by StarSword on Aug 25th 2018 at 7:38:58 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Sep 14th 2018 at 7:21:47 PM

Ok, how's this for crowner options, NOT mutually exclusive unless otherwise stated.

  1. Use the Secret History title for Plausibly Deniable History and redirect wicks from Reality Retcon as appropriate.
  2. Disambiguate Reality Retcon between: Artistic License – History, Secret History, Alternate History, Like Reality, Unless Noted, other existing tropes as appropriate (similar to post #17).

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
Sep 17th 2018 at 2:09:05 PM

[up] Those options seem reasonable.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
nombretomado Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Sep 17th 2018 at 3:08:01 PM

Crowner hooked.

lol.
Sep 30th 2018 at 11:29:37 AM

It seems we don't have many voters on this one though both options still technically have a positive response.

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
Oct 1st 2018 at 9:11:13 AM

Crowners are still broken.

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space
Captain of USS Bajor
Oct 1st 2018 at 5:24:39 PM

[up]Click the link in my preceding post.

PageAction: RealityRetcon
17th Sep '18 2:48:40 PM

Crown Description:

Reality Retcon has an extremely vague definition and is currently an exampleless supertrope. Every potential interpretation of its description seems to already exist as a separate trope.

Two solutions have been proposed. These are NOT mutually exclusive.

Total posts: 33
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