Weiss was originally troped as Royal Princess. I removed her from that trope as she's not royalty and the compromise was to place her under Spirited Young Lady. I don't recognise all of that content, however, so I don't think its worded quite the same way as the trope I moved.
I don't have any skin in this game, so I don't particularly mind if she's deemed to not be an example of Spirited Young Lady. However, to explain as simply as I can what the setting and character is to explain the original decision, read the following. If you still don't think she fits, that's fair enough.
The story's universe is something of a 'science fiction meets fantasy' setting. There's a general sense of familiarity with real life present day but with certain very unreal elements added, some of which fits into the sci-fi genre (robots, mechas, holograms, holographic AI technology, airships, etc.), some of which fits the fantasy (there's a strong link to the Brothers Grimm fairy tales, magic exists, superpowers exist, etc.) and some of which spans both (a crystalline form of energy called Dust that powers technology but functions like magic, weapons technology that - as far as the audience is concerned - would be called 'magic' in fantasy settings). It's a bit of a Crapsack World — humanity exists on the edge of extinction, localised into four Kingdoms that protect them from the terrible monsters that dominate the world, monsters that are straight out of myth and fairy tale but which are neither animal nor human — their origin, nature and hatred for humanity is one of the plotline's puzzles).
Humanity is protected by Huntsmen (the generic and masculine term, the feminine term being Huntresses), who master Dust, and the spiritual power of their souls (called Aura and Semblance), to protect humanity from the monsters (called Grimm). A world war that ended decades again also saw the end of kings and emperors. However, certain societies do acknowledge a divide between society's elite and the rest of society, especially the poor. While Huntsmen cross this divide by dint of their heroic reputations, how visible in society this divide is will depend on which Kingdom is being talked about.
The Schnee Dust Company was started by a man (Nicholas Schnee) who wanted to raise the people of his Kingdom (called Mantle in his day, called Atlas now) out of poverty. It was mining company that became so successful, trusted and well-regarded that it now dominates global mining, supply and transport of Dust. The current head of the SDC (Jacques Schnee) is the exact opposite of the founder and is a Corrupt Corporate Executive. He is Weiss's father.
The Kingdom of Atlas is split very heavily along two lines: the old Mantle, where the poverty-stricken and outcasts of society are forced to live, and Atlas, which is where the wealthy elite live like aristocrats. Weiss is introduced as the heiress of the SDC and much of her themes and symbolism are connected to the concept of royalty. She's outright called a 'princess' (corrected to 'heiress' by someone else) and her Image Songs and Leit Motif songs have lyrics that refer to royalty (like the aforementioned 'royal test' quote).
Jacques has very firm ideas on what his children exist to do and he does not tolerate deviation from that vision. He has disowned his oldest daughter and disinherited her because she joined the military to escape his control. Weiss has a dream that she can restore the honour of her family that she feels her father is destroying by becoming a noble and honourable Huntress. Her father does not want her to become one, expecting her to be a proper lady who shadows him in silence and represents him (as a talented singer) whenever his company needs a PR boost. He is even willing to place her under house arrest and disinherit her to try and force her to quit. So, she breaks out and goes on the run from her own family.
The entire theme of Weiss is about rebelling against the place in life her father and her wealthy society expects from her (one of the reasons she's disinherited and imprisoned by her father is because she lashes out at the elite guests of a charity benefit her father is hosting for their petty self-interest, but very nearly gets a guest (accidentally) killed in the process, so he makes a decision, in the interest of PR damage control, to disinherit her — the imprisonment, however, is entirely about preventing her from going back to the Huntsman Academies with the intention of breaking her into becoming the kind of daughter he wants her to be).
So, that's the setting and the character. That's why she was initially troped under Rebellious Princess (because of the aristocratic themes connected to her, her family company and the wealthy society she comes from). She was moved because while they function like aristocrats they're technically not, hence the Spirited Young Lady trope.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
It doesn't sound like this character is at all lady-like. That is required for the Spirited Young Lady.
Thanks so much for such a thorough reply. I read that carefully and I still think she doesn't fit, but maybe it's because there is relevant information missing in her description.
I think the genre is off — fantasy and fairy-tale elements would be ok, lots of fantasies are based on past eras in European history, but the sci-fi and present-day elements suggest more modern notions of women. Joining military, fighting and protecting humanity and leading a business in a world with robots, holograms and airships is just too far away from the definition, which is based on Jane Austen's and Brontë sisters' heroines and similar characters. The problem is that in her setting, it seems that women already have freedom and they have lots of options and possibilities. They are not expected to just sit in a Big Fancy House and be pretty and lady-like, and therefore they would shine just for bending rules a little and showing off their intelligence and witty conversation. (Weiss may have a difficult/abusive father, but she can go to school and become a huntress and protect people, and wants to follow her grandfather and lead a family company, which may be less common, but doesn't seem unheard of.)
Though when I look at the defining features, she may not be that off.
Defining traits from the trope description:
- She is a young woman, usually between 16-25.
- Not mentioned, but Weiss likely fits.
- Her social standing/family background will be middle class or higher. Most often, her family comes from the landed gentry, though she may be a clergyman's daughter.
- OK
- She is witty and confident in her conversation.
- She likely fits.
- She is often quite intelligent, and may display other talents.
- OK
- She has less interest in lady-like activities (such as embroidery) and might enjoy "unladylike" things (such as foxhunting) more than would be proper for a too lady-like lady.
- Most likely yes, but maybe there is too much of this. Traditionally feminine interests are not even mentioned.
- She is independent and self-sufficient.
- Most likely yes.
- She anticipates, or even expects, to marry someday, but she does not need a man to give her life purpose.
- Romance is not mentioned, and it's usually part of SYL's character development.
- She is generally honest and frank (though she may lie for a good cause).
- OK
- She may be outspoken, bold, or in some cases even defiant.
- She seems to be too defiant, or perhaps such behaviour is expected of women and girls?
- Despite the above, she generally avoids going so far beyond the rules of her society that she would be labelled disreputable: she is, after all, a lady.
- I think she is not disreputable, but she likely doesn't not have to bend or break rules. In her society, she can do as she chooses.
All in all, I think there must be another trope that fits better. Perhaps it's a related trope, perhaps a sister trope to Spirited Young Lady and Rebellious Princess. We might have it already on the wiki, or if not, it could be suggested in the Trope Launch Pad.
^^ She is very lady-like. But in a high-class way. For example, she wouldn't be doing any cooking and cleaning because she'd have servants to do it for her. Well, not any more, given her situation, but that's how she was raised.
^ I'd say that's an accurate assessment of her. To fill in your gaps (in order):
- She starts the show aged 17. There has been a time-skip, which means she's currently 18.
- Lady-like activities: there is a bit of a dearth of knowledge where her home life is concerned. However, when her team were drafted in to complete the organisation of the school ball, she was fussing over flower-arranging and what colour and type of doilies to finish off the table settings, while others dealt with other parts of the organising.
- She's extremely wary about romance/marriage. The founder of the company (Nicholas) was her grandfather. The company was passed to her father (Jacques) who is Nicholas' son-in-law, not son. Jacques took his wife's name upon marriage. Unfortunately for his wife and her father, he was a gold-digger and has no interest in being a husband and father beyond what he can make his family do for his reputation. Weiss automatically assumes eligible boys/men that take an interest in her are just like her father. She's not opposed to it (she has shown an interest in one male character in the show) but she's clearly got some trust issues where this subject is concerned.
- On the too defiant issue, it's hard to gauge that given that she does have a genuinely abusive, controlling father. The example I mentioned, where she lashes out at guests, I didn't provide context for — it was a charity designed to raise money to give to her school which had just been destroyed by the villains with associated loss of life. She was grieving and the guest she lashed out at was basically victim-blaming. She lost control of her spiritual power and summoned something dangerous which tried to kill the woman she was angry with. She is certainly defiant and one of her friends views her as the epitome of the word, but that specific incident was unusual. As far as her father is concerned, his children should display absolutely no defiance at all — the youngest child (and his only son) has learned that the best way to deal with their father is to passively allow himself to be moulded into exactly the person his father wants him to be. He therefore appears to be entirely complicit with everything his father does. His two daughters, however, have refused this process and thus become estranged from him.
- She had to bend and push the rules to get into the Academy of her choice (she went to a different Kingdom to study; her sister didn't manage that). However, that is probably because of her father, rather than society. I can't answer this one because the story has primarily taken place in that Kingdom and, more recently, a different one. However, the plot is taking the story back to Atlas when the show starts up again later this year. It could be that this question can be better answered at a later date — she certainly has done one thing her society wouldn't approve of: she's made friends with Faunus (human-like beings who are a Little Bit Beastly — the show has been quite cagey on the origin of the Faunus, so it's hard to know if they're humans with animal-traits or a different species with a different origin). Atlas has huge issues with the Faunus; a lot of the downtrodden, poverty-stricken workforce living in Mantle are Faunus and one of the Faunus characters in the show had to hide her racial identity just to function among the wealthy elite of Atlas. Weiss's friendships have been forged away from Atlas, so at this point in the story line, she hasn't had to answer to her society for her friendships. Whether or not the story does address this, we'll have to see. It's not tropable now and certainly not in a way that would be relevant to Spirited Young Lady.
A spirited young lady does not cook and clean. She is well-mannered, fashionable, graceful, elegant, loving.
There is no Planet B
Removed from the text:
- Miss Betty from The Daltons. She wears dresses, lipstick, a red bow in her hair (which could actually be a wig), is generally feminine and...she kidnapped the four Dalton brothers to use them as hostages because the director didn't want to give her some days off to let her visit her sister.
This example fails to mention almost all defining features of Spirited Young Lady.
- She is a young woman, usually between 16-25.
- Age not mentioned
- Her social standing/family background will be middle class or higher. Most often, her family comes from the landed gentry, though she may be a clergyman's daughter.
- Her class background is not mentioned; the historical period is not mentioned
- She is witty and confident in her conversation. She is often quite intelligent and may display other talents.
- Not mentioned.
- She has less interest in lady-like activities (such as embroidery) and might enjoy "unladylike" things (such as foxhunting) more than would be proper for a too lady-like lady.
- Not mentioned.
- She is independent and self-sufficient. She anticipates or even expects, to marry someday, but she does not need a man to give her life purpose.
- She works as an actress. That probably makes her independent and sufficient, though more context would help. (EDIT: I read something about the series and the character, and she actually works in prison.)
- She is generally honest and frank (though she may lie for a good cause).
- Not mentioned.
- She may be outspoken, bold, or in some cases even defiant.
- She probably fits this part of the trope.
- Despite the above, she generally avoids going so far beyond the rules of her society that she would be labelled disreputable: she is, after all, a lady.
- Taking people hostage does go far beyond bending the rules.
This character doesn't seem to fit this particular trope. She may be young, she may be spirited, she may be feminine, but she doesn't sound like a lady, and she almost certainly is not this particular trope.
Edited by XFllo Hide / Show Replies
There is no Planet B
I removed this example from the page.
- Candy White Andree from Candy♡Candy is a Heartwarming Orphan, who is taken in by a rich family. But she also is plucky enough to do things like dressing up as a boy, so she won't have to miss a party just because she's grounded. And she also strives to become an independent woman and a competent nurse when she grows up.
None of these sentences relate to defining features of Spirited Young Lady. She seems to be a child and therefore too young to qualify. She also sounds too rebellious to count. Also, being a working woman was once used as a disqualifying feature — ladies do not work, or at least do not have to.
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You are right. It isn't an example. She isn't lady like as it describes her. Being taken in by a rich family doesn't mean anything.
Well... It seems to me that Candy is an example of a tomboy, who grows up to be a Spirited Young Lady. And I had no idea that wanting or having a career would be a disqualifier. Actually, I would have thought quite the opposite. But I leave it to someone else to bring more context to this.
Kickisund, maybe if the context mentioned what she is like when she is an older teen or a young adult, it could be a different thing. Now the context tells readers only about a spirited, rebellious child.
I assume having a career is not an absolute disqualifier (there is, after all, Lady Sybille Crawley who is an earl's daughter and who becomes a nurse after WWI), but she has to be from at least the upper-middle class and display other defining traits of the trope.
You may want to look up a discussion on Henrietta Stackpole in Is this an example? thread in the Trope Talk forum.
Edited by XFllo
Ladies are not expected to work. Having a career makes her sound like she's probably not lady-like enough. Spirit is more subtle than that.
Someone recently took the Titanic example and completely rewrote it to say that it's a subversion instead of a straight example. A subversion is playing bait and switch with a trope but there is no switch here. Rose is polite but she does have unlady-like interests and wit.
There is no Planet B
I have an issue with this example.
- The Blaxploitation roles of Pam Grier work as a Reconstruction of the trope for the "modern day". As Quentin Tarantino has noted, Grier's heroines first codified in cinema the female Badass who nonetheless saw no need to link that with being a Tomboy. Pam's characters in Coffy, Foxy Brown, Sheba, Baby, etc., are prone to Kicking Ass in All Her Finery while being comfortably flirtatious and caring a great deal about their appearance.
First, it violates our rule of listing "general" example by mentioning several roles of one actress as if they were interchangeable.
Second, my gut feeling doesn't like this write-up. I think this might be a different trope entirely, perhaps decending from Spirited Young Lady, but a witty, badass woman who kicks ass and cares about her appearance might be too far from this trope that is mainly connected to past eras.
What do you say?
Edited by XFllo Hide / Show Replies
It doesn't seem to count, and listing multiple works is a violation. She may be spirited, young, and a lady, but she's not this trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I agree - the characters referred to above are very far from the trope, too far to count as a reconstruction. Coffy and Foxy Brown, for example, start out as victims and go on sprees of revenge - that's quite far from a Spirited Young Lady.
Edited by GnomeTitan
You Give Me Fever
You know what? A laconic of exactly what this is, is needed. Please help!
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes Hide / Show Replies
Why? Laconics usually suck, are inaccurate and lead to misuse — because some editors don't bother to read the trope description.
Does being rich necessarily make her a lady? This was recently re-added to the page.
- Margaret Brent
, who in early 17th C. Maryland was—between what her father left her and what she controlled as guardian for her nephew after the death of her sister and brother-in-law—the richest woman in the colony, and the second richest person after Lord Baltimore himself. She practiced law, served as a judge, and when Lord Baltimore had to go back to England on business he made her his deputy, which meant essentially she was Acting Governor of Maryland.
Being rich — no, but practicing law at that time — I'd say it makes her determined and very spirited.
Though personally, I'm not that invested in RL examples. My vote is a weak yes that she can be included. If I'm not mistaken, she was once on the page, but was deleted because somebody thought she's not lady-like or feminine enough.
Note the recent edit to the description that changed "Witty and confident" in her conversation to "spunky and confident in her conversation." I'm inclined to change this back. A Spirited Young Lady is certainly spunky, but that's not the same is as having wit, and I think wit is a common element of this trope. (At one point in the YKTTW process, someone had proposed "Young Lady of Wit and Spirit" as an alternative title, if that tells you anything.)
Anyway, just wanted to make sure there were no objections to restoring the description.
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I agree with you there. No reason was left for the change and calling someone spunky in conversation doesn't really make sense.
I think "witty" is better, too. The word "spunky" could be added anywhere else into the description.
The same person changed the Proper Lady description from * Spirited Young Lady - a little more witty; a little less prim to * Spirited Young Lady - a little more spunky; a little less prim.
Spunky makes some sense in the change to the Proper Lady description. The SYL IS generally more spunky than the Proper Lady. But I don't like the removal of wittiness. What if we edited it to have both spunky and witty? "a little more spunky and witty; a little less prim." Or even "a little more spunk and wit; a little less primness." Is that overkill? The original phrase had brevity working for it.
There is no Planet B
- Joey Bettany of the Chalet School certainly fits all the criteria, at least until she settles down with Jack Maynard. Her spiritual successor, Mary-Lou Trelawney, also has some Spirited Young Lady tendencies - she's notorious for saying whatever pops into her head and getting away with it, and unlike many other girls, she's more interested in a career than marriage. She's mischievous, has her own clique and sometimes breaks the rules, but isn't malicious with it.
What do you say about this edit? It looks bad to me. The first is classic ZCE and the second looks a bit better. The second could perhaps fit, but the page says it's set in a boarding school — I would say that is a genre that doesn§t use this trope. Spoiled Sweet sounds more likely. Also, I don't understand how two girls in one book/series can be called one another's Spiritual Successor — on this wiki the meaning is something entirely different.
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I agree about the zero context example. I'm not sure about why a boarding school couldn't use this trope. It's true that you most often see the spirited young lady in books that have a courtship plot, but I would think you could find her in a boarding school if she fell into the right age range.
There is no Planet B
Concrete examples of films and characters should be listed.
- In fact, almost every character ever played by Keira Knightley.
- The typical character played by Grace Kelly.
Edit to add: This is still a general example which are not allowed.
- Though Grace Kelly often plays a Proper Lady, she often goes into "spirited" territory, particularly in To Catch A Thief and Rear Window.
Please describe her characters from those films in sufficient detail.
- A lot of the heroines in the Pink Carnation series, though they vary as to how much rule-breaking they do.
- Many of Georgette Heyer's heroines exemplify this trope.
- Most of the heroines in P. G. Wodehouse's works. Some of them get a "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship with the Proper Lady, who then becomes part of the Beta Couple.
These two examples were deleted (not by me) with this edit reason: "Tomboy in olden times, not a lady. The description says, 'she is, after all, a lady.'"
- Among the March sisters in Little Women, Jo is one who best fits this trope, given her outspoken, tomboy nature and her intellectual gifts. (Meg plays the Proper Lady in contrast and younger Beth is another little "angel of the house".)
- Montgomery used the trope in her most famous work Anne of Green Gables, with Fiery Redhead Anne being the Spirited Young Lady in contrast to her best friend Proper Lady Diana. They also fit Tomboy and Girly Girl, by turn-of-the-century standards.
I'm not familiar with Anne, and I only read part of Little Women and saw some adaptations. I think Jo March is sufficiently lady-like to fit Spirited Young Lady. What do others think?
I deleted them because as far as I see there's nothing lady-like about them. Meg keeps trying to get Jo to act like a lady because Jo does not abide by the rules of her society. What would you say she does that's lady-like?
Anne doesn't bend the rules just a little. She breaks them when she yells at the neighbor and breaks her slate over Gilbert's head.
Just to note, Spirited Young Lady is listed on the Tomboy index.
Spirited Young Lady: A complex variant of this. Confident high class woman who can bend the rules without quite breaking them. Maintains a feminine mystique while often having some tomboyish characteristics and tastes.
I have no problem with a tomboy being on the page as long as the example says how she's a feminine lady as well.
You should remember that a tomboy is more likely to become a Spirited Young Lady than a Proper Lady when she grows up. So I say Jo March and Anne Shirley should be put back.
Edited by Furienna
Furienna just said the very thing I wanted to say. In period literature, whether we like it or not, a Tom Boy frequently matures into a Spirited Young Lady as she gradually conforms to society a bit more. (Actually, I was just wondering if I should edit the trope description to make that clear, because it's pretty important. Admittedly, this is already a long trope description, but there are reasons for that.)
I do think that adult Jo and adult Anne fit this trope. Hell, Jo was one of the original defining examples of the trope, first mentioned back when it was in YTTW. It kind of floors me that someone would think that she didn't fit!
Edited by 71.193.17.168
It kind of floors me that people think they don't have to explain how it fits. The context in each example must include two things, not just how she's spirited but how she's lady like. In what way is she acting like a lady?
Didn't they become more lady-like as they matured though, just like both I and Tturtle have said? That would make them qualify, wouldn't it?
lexicon does have a point: the descriptions should try to indicate something about what makes the character a young lady as well as spirited. Many of the current descriptions focus on the "spirited" part and seem to take the "lady" for granted.
It's been a while since I've read Little Women or Anne Of Green Gables, so I don't know how good a job I'd do of revising the descriptions. I can do it if no one else wants to, but is anyone else up for it?
I agree, lots of the examples need context. Anyone willing to comment-out Zero Context Examples? (And probably those half-context examples too?)
Edited by 77.48.59.193
Added context to a few of the "half-context examples," but I think there's still more work to do.
I don't think Anne Of Green Gables longing to be beautiful makes her ladylike since there's the whole breaking her slate over someone's head thing. Maybe once she does become beautiful when she's older.
The Duchess, Titanic and The Mask Of Zorro are written to specifically say how she's spirited and ladylike.
The narrator refers to Anne as "feminine to the core" at one point early in the novel, after Anne tells someone she'd rather be pretty than smart. To me, that suggests that there's a "ladylike" aspect of Anne that is in tension with her temper. I don't think that one act of violence to a boy disqualifies her from being a Spirited Young Lady.
Anne also Thinks Like a Romance Novel, with a vivid and very romantically-inclined imagination which she indulges in the form of fairy tales, love stories, and overly dramatic and often tragic Mary Sue characters. The slate-breaking is a single incident when she's thirteen years old, and it's immediately followed by Anne taking deep offense at having her name misspelled "Ann" because she considers it plain and boring and not nearly as pretty and graceful as it looks with the "e" added.
While she's prone to "scrapes" when she's young, they mostly come in the form of things like getting stuck in a sinking rowboat while pretending to be Elaine the Lily Maid from Arthurian legend, turning her hair green while trying to dye it black, and hilarious accidents at tea parties - not what I consider tomboyish pastimes. She grows much less accident-prone as she gets older, while still retaining her lively spirit, sense of adventure and whimsy, and colorful, romantic imagination.
Edited by 10.130.136.58
Does anyone here think Merida from Brave counts? She's currently listed on the character page.
With absolutely no context, I can't tell.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
She sits pretty far on the "rough and rebellious" side of ladylike, but she still qualifies. Note that, while she is willful and headstrong, she also never technically breaks the rules of her kingdom. Also, over the course of the movie she is forced to mature and fix her own mistakes, thereby gaining the wisdom inherent in this trope.
I was about to say that I thought she was more of a Rebellious Princess, but it's true that she changes/matures more over the course of the movie than most Rebellious Princesses do.
I don't know the source material (Brave). It would be nice if the example said more about her feminine side and what makes her ladylike, but I suppose it's ok.
Though when I think about it, I would say that these two tropes (Spirited Young Lady and Rebellious Princess) probably don't overlap that much. I usually don't associate Spirited Young Ladies with royalty.
From the description:
- Her social standing/family background will be middle class or higher. Most often, her family comes from the landed gentry, though she may be a clergyman's daughter.
- Compare Rebellious Princess, who's of a higher social standing but may behave similarly.
I suspect the princess from Brave is shoe-horned.
There is nothing more to say about her feminine side. That's as lady-like as she gets, learning from her mistake at the very end. Her mistake was almost plunging the area into war because she was fighting tradition with her physical fighting.
X Fllo and I disagree about an example I wrote.
- In Elizabeth I: Red Rose of the House of Tudor of The Royal Diaries series Princess Elizabeth shocked people around her with her swearing. She knew even at that point that she never wanted to get married. After she was caught swatting and swearing a hot and vile oath at her monkey by her father the king she dropped to her knees and requested forgiveness for her vile tongue from His Majesty. The King looked at her as if he thought her half witch.
Wouldn't it be better to start a new thread? This one is quite clustered already.
I think the example, as it's written now, looks more like a Proper Lady who lapsed for a moment and immediately regretted it. Not much spirit in her behaviour, not enough spunk, too subservient to stand up for herself. Just a Proper Lady who was being improper.
That said, I haven't read the source material. Lexicon mentioned the princess refused to get married, which would move her into the Spirited Young Lady territory a bit but I think would need a clear write-up.
I would split it off into its own discussion thread, too.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
folder: Web Animation
I removed this write-up from the examples. I don't think this character fits the trope. The work seems like a fantasy genre of some kind; from the work page, I couldn't quite understand what time period it's supposed to be set in — it is hardly based on Regency, Victorian or Edwardian period, which are the most typical settings where we can find Spirited Young Ladies. From the text above, I think she could fit a Lady of War and other types of rebellious girls. Being a business woman (Honest Corporate Executive) is very atypical as well — running a household and being the mistress of the house is more common and usually as close as these ladies have to a career.
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