Five-Man Band cleanup

Cut all the proposed removals from 747 and 749.

I'll suggest that these example all be cut:

From Supernatural.Tropes E To L:

• Five-Man Band: Often falls into the following dynamic for season 7-8:
  • The Hero: Dean
  • The Lancer: Sam
  • The Big Guy: Castiel
  • The Smart Guy: Kevin Tran
  • The Chick: Charlie Bradbury
  • Sixth Ranger / Token Evil Teammate: Meg

This whole show is a two-person dynamic with Sam and Dean as The Hero, occasionally joined by some supporting characters. Neither can be called The Lancer in any way. Castiel, Kevin Tran, and Charlie Bradbury do sort of fill those roles, although Charlie is The Smart Guy just as often (even Sam to a lesser extent). However, each of those three show up for maybe three episodes (especially Charlie, bordering on The Cameo) each in those seasons without working as a joint team. Meg plain doesn't fit into a Five-Man Band.

From Star Trek: The Next Generation:

• Five-Man Band:
  • The Hero: Picard, naturally.
  • The Lancer: Riker.
  • The Smart Guy: Geordi and Data.
  • The Big Guy: Worf
  • The Chick: Crusher and Troi.
  • Tagalong Kid: Wesley, to an extent.
  • The Sixth Ranger: Ro.

Too many people. It's a seven person-cast most of the time, and you can't have two doubles of The Smart Guy and The Chick. Wesley and Ro Laren are shoved into unrelated tropes.

From StarTrekDeepSpaceNine.Tropes E To L:

• Five-Man Band
  • The Hero: Sisko
  • The Lancer: Kira and later Worf
  • The Big Guy: Odo
  • The Smart Guy: Jadzia Dax and Bashir
  • The Chick: Ezri

Ezri didn't join the cast until the last season (and replaced Jadzia), so The Chick is missing for most of that duration. Four people are listed as being either The Lancer or The Smart Guy simultaneously, and Odo as The Big Guy is iffy. Odo is potentially the strongest cast member due to his shapeshifting abilities, but Worf is a much better fit for that trope due to his much more martial personality.

And some examples from LiveActionTV-N-S

Stargate

Atlantis

Seasons 1 - 3

Aiden Ford is not The Big Guy, he shares the role of Lancer with Teyla and/or Sheppard. Whether Teyla is The Chick is doubtful; she's an Action Girl and does't fit the role as the Heart of the team very well.

Seasons 4 & 5

These line up very closely, but Todd needs to go. Even ignoring that there can't be six people, you can't call him a part of the team most of the time during those Enemy Mines, just a conniving second party.

SG-1

• Note: On at least one occasion, the "band" metaphor was applied to the team within the show.

I think they fit, but remove Vala. I do want to ask if there's a difference between a field team (which excludes Hammond) and one that encompasses the show's main roster.

Universe

Way too many characters. Camille doesn't fit anywhere, Telford is isolated from the rest, TJ doesn't belong in this trope, and Eli actually shares the role of The Smart Guy with Rush.

Star Trek: Enterprise

Pretty close with the first five all looking like correct use (except for Reed; I'm dubious if you can qualify "not particularely physically imposing guy who happens to man the battle station" as The Big Guy), but Travis and Porthos don't belong anywhere. And where does that leave Dr. Phlox?

edited 19th Aug '14 9:25:07 AM by Morgenthaler

I checked Google, but didn't see any discussion of these two from Larry Correia. I've not read either in a while, but in one case doesn't apply, and in the other I'm not sure about.

From Monster Hunter International, which I've read several times over (and more recently than the other, thanks to the release of Nemesis last month):

• Five-Man Band: Owen and co.:
  • The Leader: Owen, despite being one of the newbies.
  • The Lancer: Julie acts like this to Owen.
  • The Big Guy: Holly. While she night be physically unimposing, she's the one with the biggest weapons.
  • The Smart Guy: Al Lee, ex-librarian.
  • The Heart: Trip, whom Owen describes as "the good guy of out team".

Holly is an average sized woman who worked as a stripper before joining MHI, and does not carry "the biggest weapons".

Unlike with MHI, this second one I'm not sure about, from Dead Six (read only once, no real ambition to read again):

• Five-Man Band: Lorenzo's original crew. Lorenzo is The Leader, Carl is The Lancer, Reaper is The Smart Guy, Train is The Big Guy, and a reference is made to someone named Kat, who was The Chick. Train is killed at the very beginning of the story, and Kat apparently left at some point in the past.

On the upside, at least this doesn't have the depreciated second level bullet (ahem) points. Beyond that, though, dunno, though if I'm remembering right Kat is not at all the spiritual or heart of the team, being something of an incredibly ambitious psycho.

Anyone else know of a reason to keep these two entries?

edited 18th Aug '14 2:52:28 PM by Nohbody

I combed the Anime and Manga wicks A through M and added everything that was not obviously wrong to my sandbox.

I suspect a few of these are still incorrect.

Five Man Band Anime

Regarding Ikki Tousen: The Big Guy can be weaker than other members. Being the Big Guy doesn't mean they're the strongest, it means their primary role is combat. Honestly, usually the leader winds up being the strongest in a fight.

Holy crap the Supernatural example is awful. It's primarily a two-man show, delving into a Power Trio with Cas. Charlie doesn't have nearly enough presence to count as part of the team, and I'm not positive off-hand she's ever worked with Cas or Kevin.

^ 08th MS Team has a guy listed as The Chick.

edited 19th Aug '14 7:32:00 AM by Larkmarn

^ Figures. I will change it to The Heart and relocate it to The Team.

Looking for stuff I know about, I came across these;

Sherlock

The Leader Sherlock Holmes

The Lancer John Watson

The Big Guy Greg Lestrade

The Smart Guy Mycroft Holmes

The Chick Molly Hooper and Mrs. Hudson

First off, these people don't even share a team dynamic. Lestrade is shoehorned into The Big Guy, and we've got a doubled The Chick.

Star Trek 2009

The Leader Kirk

The Lancer Mc Coy

The Smart Guy Spock and Scotty

The Big Guy Sulu

The Chick Uhura

Tagalong Kid Chekov

Sixth Ranger Scotty

This one is definitely not a Five-Man Band. It's got seven members, and the movie (and franchise) is about the Kirk / Spock / Mc Coy Freudian Trio.

I recommend both of these for deletion.

edited 20th Aug '14 2:38:27 PM by SKM2012

dump both of them.

Splash them. Obviously don't fit the trope as described.

Example Indentation actually prohibits the widely-adopted format of Five-Man Bands presentation in regards to bullets and lines (zero-contextness being a different matter). What's up with that? I've noticed it only recently and I could see both good and bad things stemming from such shift, but I wasn't aware of it to even try to enforce it.

edited 22nd Aug '14 2:09:01 AM by NemuruMaeNi

Yeah, the general idea is you do not want to sub-bullet other tropes under a trope. It takes them out of order and makes them harder to find on the list. Personally I think that is fine for work pages but it seems pointless on trope pages since no one is combing the list looking for the other tropes. I suppose it is a matter of setting the right example since people copy what they see.

Incidentally, they advantages vs the disadvantages of this have been discussed. I think everyone is aware that that there are some issues with separating related tropes, but the rule still stands as is. Like you said, there are both pros and cons.

I only picked up on the indentation thing part way through my wick check, but I have been correcting the indentation as I go along now. The correct format on work pages is to but the description of how they are a team next to the Five-Man Band and then list how each person is each other trope separately.

On the trope page obv they need to be together which I guess is why we have been using the table format (altho imo it is ugly as hell). I have not changed my sandbox over yet b/c I do not really understand the table code so if someone else would like to do that I would appreciate it.

edited 22nd Aug '14 7:17:55 AM by rexpensive

The idiosyncratic indentation of Five-Man Band is acceptable on the trope article, but not in work articles.

edited 22nd Aug '14 8:44:22 AM by Fighteer

^ Sounds good to me. I will continue to fix the indentation on wicks as I see them.

I'm gonna suggest to cut all of these as well.

From FiveManBan.Film

Alien (the first film)

Two many people.

Aliens

Too many people, a guy is listed as The Chick.

Alien: Resurrection: The crew of the Betty

This one almost fits, but there are two Chicks.

The Avengers (2012)

Too many shifting roles, and Hawkeye sort of messes up the allignment due to fitting nowhere.

The Land Before Time

Petrie is shoehorned into The Smart Guy; I don't recall him being any more intelligent than the other members.

The Matrix

Too many people or too few people depending on where they are at any given moment, and I'll argue that Morpheus is the undisputed leader of the group, even if he's not The Hero. Neo probably has the best claim to being The Big Guy after he becomes the One as well.

The Usual Suspects

A guy is listed as The Chick.

From the Live-Action TV subpages:

Mystery Science Theater 3000

A lot of shoehorning here. Mike only arrived after Joel left, and either of them along with Crow and Tom Servo form more of a Power Trio.

Red Dwarf: Series VIII

The Cat is shoehorned into The Big Guy. Holly (who was there from the start) makes it a six-person team.

And from some work pages:

American Pie

• Five-Man Band:
  • The Hero: Jim
  • The Lancer: Stifler
  • The Smart Guy: Finch
  • The Big Guy: Oz
  • The Chick: Kevin
    • Odd in that Kevin is generally portrayed as being the leader of the guys, but he's also the most concerned with things like keeping traditions, staying together and so forth. He also tends to be the only one no one ever has a problem with.

Kevin is shoehorned, and he's a guy listed as The Chick.

SouthPark.Tropes E To J

• Five-Man Band
  • The Hero: Stan
  • The Lancer: Kenny (or Kyle)
  • The Big Guy: Cartman (possibly subverted in the fact that although he can enact more damage (either directly or indirectly) on someone (via manipulation et al.) he's fairly weak and whiny physically)
  • The Smart Guy: Kyle (or Kenny... particularly considering that in the earlier seasons Kenny was the only one who really understood things)
  • The Chick: Wendy
  • The Heart: Butters
  • Tagalong Kid: Ike
  • Sixth Ranger: Jimmy, thought this can be any of the other kids depending on the episode.
  • Also, the fandom applies this trope to Craig's team as well:
    • The Hero(or Anti-Hero, more appropriately): Craig
    • The Lancer / The Smart Guy: Token
    • The Big Guy: Clyde (he's said to be the second fattest kid in the class, after Cartman)
    • The Chick: Tweek, when he occasionally tags along with them.
    • The Fifth Ranger: Jimmy or Kevin

Too many people. The boys are a four-person group, with a girl rarely joining them.

Characters.South Park Other Recurring Characters

• Five-Man Band: Sort of.
  • The Hero: Jesus
  • The Lancers: Buddha (does not believe in evil) and Muhammad (not allowed to make public appearances)
  • The Big Guy: Krishna
  • The Smart Guys: Lao Tse and Moses
  • The Chick: Joseph Smith
  • Sixth Ranger: Sea-Man
  • Team Pet: Swallow

Shoehorned Example, too many people.

I don't like the looks of any of those. There's too many people, male chicks, incorrect archetypes, it's all bad.

I concur that all of those should be cut.

They're gone.

From Rhythmic Pretty Cure, to which I haven't added it yet pending review:

• Hitomi Ichinose: The Leader: A Jack of All Stats and the de facto leader of the Cures.
• Tsumugi Nikaido: The Lancer: A tomboyish karateka who is the most willing to use physical attacks against the Nightmare Beauties.
• Saeko Mitaka: The Chick: A ballerina who serves as the team's Fragile Speedster and uses ballet-based attacks frequently.
• Ana Yotsuya: The Big Guy: An Idol Singer who sacrifices speed for strength.
• Itsuko Godai: The Smart Guy: An intellectual Yamato Nadeshiko who's more than a match for Hitomi in the brains department.

I want to know if this isn't shoehorning roles, since the number requirement is gender-inverted (though The Chick's role is filled by a girl, as always). Do note that the guy has a Gender-Blender Name.

edited 9th Sep '14 12:41:34 AM by ryanasaurus0077

No, it has got to be either 4 men 1 woman or 3 men 2 women. I am not sure a girl in a team with many other girls can really hold The Chick role, even if she is The Heart and also the most feminine, she just does not have the same relationship.

What I would do is I would make and entry for the group under The Team and say that they come close to being a Five-Man Band but with different genders in the example. I did this for Sailor Moon, since they follow the Five-Man Band archetypes pretty closely. There is also the Pair Of Foils And A Mediator trope which might be a more specific fit.

I know someone was thinking of doing a Five Woman Band type deal upthread. It was dismissed at the time, but I think it would be worth really examining the roles in all these five person magical girl teams to see how often they have the leader/lancer/smart/strong/extra-girly pattern and if that might be a trope or not. Hmm, I wonder if there is a trope for when a show has a bunch of female characters and one is the girly-girl? Seems pretty common to me.

Yeah, there oughta be a trope for such teams.

In anycase, moving examples like that to The Team while taking careful note of the roles being fulfilled (and how) will allow new subtropes of The Team to be formed later with more ease, since there will be a nice list of potential examples. That is what I would recommend doing for at the moment.

I just got the ball rolling with a magical girl-specific YKTTW. A little help with the description would be welcome, as would more examples.

UPDATE: Oh, dear... it looks like a minor war is brewing over how similar to this one it is. An inevitable consequence of the fallout from earlier misuse of Five-Man Band, methinketh. Plus, there are still people who don't think Sailor Moon is a good Trope Namer. If that be the case, they may as well call for In the Name of the Moon to be renamed, if you'll pardon my use of a logical fallacy whose name I can't recall at this moment.

edited 12th Sep '14 3:37:09 AM by ryanasaurus0077

The logical fallacy you're thinking of is Slippery Slope Fallacy. And no, I will not pardon your use of it, because that is the exact problem with your argument: in this case, saying that because a Trope Namer isn't being accepted for a new trope, that currently existing tropes named after the same work need to be renamed. That's not how the wiki works. Simply put, our naming policy was much looser back in the old days; "The [Character]"-named tropes and other opaque, reference-dependent trope names flooded the wiki. But we only change them if they prove problematic; otherwise, we leave them alone.

edited 14th Sep '14 3:37:58 AM by MyTimingIsOff

Double posting for the sake of getting back on-topic and to avoid a cluttered post.

On FiveManBand.Video Games O-S: The Paper Mario example needs to go. Too many members (9), too many females (4), duplicate roles, non-FMB tropes; classic shoehorning.

Ditto for Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Too many members (8), too many females (4), and again, lists duplicate roles and non-FMB tropes.

edited 14th Sep '14 3:39:17 AM by MyTimingIsOff

^ Burn it.