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Mar 8th 2018 at 5:28:37 AM •••

Under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:

  • Celica and Lyn are Advertised Extra who do not appear in the story at all, despite being popular characters that would of fit nicely into the story.

Cut it due to sounding more complainy than anything else, especially since "being popular characters that would have fit nicely into the story" doesn't really elaborate on their being "wasted."

It sounds more like a case of, "They didn't get used as much as I wanted them to be."

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Mar 8th 2018 at 7:40:20 AM •••

I'm leaning towards cutting it as well.

Mar 8th 2018 at 7:45:36 AM •••

I also noted in the edit reason that their History Maps are A Day in the Limelight for them, they have several Support options, and they are utilized much more than each game's guest villain.

Mar 8th 2018 at 1:50:40 PM •••

Because at least Lyn and Celica ARE playable and have Supports, right?

Mar 9th 2018 at 6:33:21 AM •••

I also had a thought: Much like That One Level or That One Boss, should They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character even apply to those introduced and utilized outside of the main story? That may be one for ATT.

Jul 20th 2018 at 11:35:36 PM •••

Yes. Since they have no bearing within the main story, even if you unlock them and use them there.

Xenologue examples should apply for That One Level. If Hyrule Warriors is even allowed to have Adventure Mode examples, which mind you is the exact same thing as Xenologue Mode, then it should apply.

Feb 21st 2018 at 5:32:55 PM •••

Would Olivia be an Unexpected Character? I know she isn't unpopular or anything, but I don't think she was ever a Breakout Character like other ones who placed high on popularity polls.

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Feb 21st 2018 at 7:04:50 PM •••

I second that, I was thinking more of Cherche (because she could then have a Support with Minerva, and have her realize that Cherche named her wyvern after her).

Feb 21st 2018 at 11:44:01 PM •••

Olivia ranked #6 on the female Awakening character popularity poll, so she's definitely popular. #5 was Sumia, so if the developers wanted a female Awakening character who wasn't a pegasus knight, it was going to be Olivia, since the other characters ahead of her on the poll are already in the game (Lucina, Cordelia, Female Avatar, and Tharja).

Anyone else have any idea just how unexpected she was among the fanbase? Might want to consider the Japanese fanbase as well.

Feb 8th 2018 at 3:48:03 PM •••

I've seen a recent video that made me notice something : they really should've developed more on Rowan's disdain for his father (especially since it's implied there's something deep about it since, even though Xander tried to justify his "weakness" and Rowan understood his logic, he still couldn't find himself able to drop his disdain of him). So would that make for a case of the They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot trope?

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Feb 11th 2018 at 6:28:37 PM •••

Sounds more like They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character, examples of that are best with a source.

I can watch the video and decide my opinion later.

Though perhaps it'd be best to wait a little while?

Feb 12th 2018 at 7:54:56 AM •••

No, I don't think it's a case of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot. It's not a particularly important plot point in the grand scheme of things, but it is used to give us more insight into Rowan's character and why he's so obsessed with knights.

Not a case of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character either, since Rowan isn't exactly underutilized.

Feb 12th 2018 at 7:56:50 AM •••

Then would Rowan's father be the wasted character, then?

Feb 12th 2018 at 8:17:14 AM •••

Can't waste what was never there.

Stop it.

Feb 12th 2018 at 8:44:53 AM •••

What Karxrida said. Rowan's father is a Posthumous Character, and not the sort that falls under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character since he's just there for background.

Feb 13th 2018 at 4:05:30 PM •••

Yeah, I think only Oskar can count for this game, even then a source would be nice.

Besides being the main character, Rowan, is also likely to appear in a sequel.

Feb 21st 2018 at 11:57:05 AM •••

A bit late to this topic but that video also misses several points about Rowan. He only ended up the way he did because he saw his father get sickly and die as king. That video is just trying to justify his character, so it is not at all something we should use as factual grounds. Rowan tells us his father's life, why he hates it, and why he doesn't want to be king. That should be enough.

Feb 8th 2018 at 8:19:01 AM •••

Bringing the History Mode map mentioned under That One Level for review, since History Mode levels listed under it before have been removed for not being part of the main game.

  • In History Mode, the final missions in "The Path is Yours" involve convincing Ryoma and Xander to join you by defeating both in battle. Sounds simple right? Only, Ruffians will appear in the battlefield and screw you intensely over. Especially when you need to rescue someone, Anna appearing on the map, or needing a tank (your strong units) unit to defending the base. Fortunately, it's made much easier with a sword user who has Mountslayer to deal with the Nohr units.

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Feb 13th 2018 at 8:18:38 AM •••

It's bizarre how Adventure Mode maps are totally okay on Hyrule Warriors's own YMMV page, yet here, you can't put History Mode maps.

Wat.

Feb 24th 2018 at 2:06:24 AM •••

It doesn't make sense to me either. I wrote legitimate reasons why the fights with Ryoma and Xander in The Path Is Yours' History Mode are That One Level. In that case, you might as well remove Adventure Mode map levels examples from Hyrule Warriors' YMMV page.

I can list just how many levels of History mode levels are That One Level, but it can't be an example, right?

Edited by Kervinle2500
Apr 27th 2018 at 8:01:21 PM •••

And we still got no concrete answer.

May 7th 2018 at 6:56:08 PM •••

I pretty much abandoned the YMMV specifically for that reason too. Meanwhile I'm working on Olivia's page on the Character section.

Jan 24th 2018 at 1:56:37 PM •••

I donít think so. Your example says that people werenít expecting child units besides Lucina, but I donít understand that logic. Shouldnít Lucinaís inclusion imply that more child characters could be possible? Donít take my word for it though, I tried to stay away from the pre-release commotion.

Jan 24th 2018 at 2:32:47 PM •••

I don't think so either. He's from Fire Emblem Awakening, which was one of the games that people knew would be focused on in Warriors. The best example I can think of for Unexpected Character is Celica, and she's already listed.

Jan 24th 2018 at 2:32:51 PM •••

What I was thinking is that, because of Heroes, most would not expect child units besides Lucina because Lucina was the only child unit in the game when it first came out.

Jan 24th 2018 at 2:34:35 PM •••

Cordelia is on here. So Unexpected Awakening Characters aren't out of the question.

Jan 24th 2018 at 2:45:10 PM •••

I'll just ask this: Did Owain (and I mean "Owain" and not "Odin") came off as someone who wouldn't appear in what Koei is clearly making as the first game in a series?

Jan 24th 2018 at 3:07:24 PM •••

No, he always seemed like a possibility. He's an extremely popular character (and moreso than "Odin," from what I've seen), and nothing from the game's pre-release marketing implied that he could not be in the game (Like with Lyn and Celica being non SD/Awak/Fates characters.)

For the same reasons, I also think Cordelia's entry should be removed. It isn't even accurate since Caeda is in the game too.

Jan 24th 2018 at 3:09:40 PM •••

Oh well...

What about the DL Cs? Any of the upcoming ones seem unexpected?

Jan 24th 2018 at 3:17:16 PM •••

Well I made Cordelia's entry when she was first revealed. It's certainly outdated, but the point was that her inclusion was surprising given that it was assumed someone like Sumia would be in over her.

Jan 24th 2018 at 3:31:26 PM •••

Fair enough, but that seems more like people being surprised that Sumia was absent.

Jan 24th 2018 at 3:42:14 PM •••

Maybe I just have stricter standards for this than most, but from what I understand Unexpected Character is about completely zany and out-of-left-field inclusions. Like Snake in Super Smash Brawl surprising. Something that virtually nobody would have even considered as a possibility.

From where I stand, the only unexpected characters in Warriors are Lyn and Celica because of the focus on Shadow Dragon/Awakening/Fates

Edited by mrbits
Jan 24th 2018 at 5:28:51 PM •••

A heads-up to Lunatic0verlord, it's better to bring things up to discussion first before actually putting them on the page if you have any questions about an entry you plan to write.

Jan 16th 2018 at 2:13:33 PM •••

I have doubts about the They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot entry that reads:

We never learn why Gristone suddenly attacked beyond King Oskar desiring the power of the Chaos Dragon. And even then, we never even learn why he even wants his power in the first place. Furthermore, the game glosses over the question of how the Mooks feel about suddenly going to war with Aytolis, a kingdom they were, until now, at peace with.

My understanding is that Oskar wants to use the dragon's power to rule the world, so we do know why Gristonne attacked Aytolis. Also, I'm not sure about the last part about the mooks since the game never intended to explore the feelings of mooks as a plot point.

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Jan 16th 2018 at 3:02:35 PM •••

The guy who added that part is edit warring anyway on top of not checking the discussion page.

Jan 17th 2018 at 7:22:06 AM •••

So anyone know if the example I posted can be deleted? I should note that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot has this:

Note that this does not include those plots/ideas you dislike in an otherwise well-written story/well-made game/etc.

and the example I'm contesting reads more like a personal gripe.

Jan 19th 2018 at 7:47:58 PM •••

I highly doubt that Warriors has a "well-written story". In fact, it's terribly bland, at best.

The story is full of wasted potential, yet no one seems to be adding any examples of it, only removing when it doesn't fit the form.

Also, FE games usually get a lot of flak when the main plot (Starter Villains like Desaix usually get a pass) works on an incredibly simple Black and White Morality, just look at all the Woolseyism that Fates needed to calm the complains (by adding things such as "Nohrian Scum") of how vilified Nohr was in the Japanese version. And this game is very much one of the most Black and White games in the franchise. Anything that enforces that is NOT a good thing.

Edited by Lunatic0verlord
Jan 20th 2018 at 8:27:16 AM •••

You're not allowed to use YMMV pages to complain anymore than you're allowed to use the WMG page to complain. Besides, "The story is full of wasted potential, yet no one seems to be adding any examples of it, only removing when it doesn't fit the form" veers way too close to agenda-based editing for my liking.

YMMV is for documenting audience reactions, but that doesn't mean it should be used as a dumping ground for personal gripes. We already had the thread locked once because people didn't get the hint that they weren't supposed to use YMMV for complaining.

Edited by dragonfire5000
Jan 20th 2018 at 1:03:17 PM •••

Most Fire Emblem games have a pretty black-and-white conflict. Nergal definitely wasn't a morally complex character. He wants to take over the world, and he's willing to kill a lot of people to make it happen. The story of how he got like that is tragic, but his actual character is a straitforward villain. Ashnard may have had a more particular goal than initially seemed, but he's still causing a massive amount of death and destruction to create a world that would be horrible to live in for most people. Lekain was drunk on power and never anything but a bastard. Ashera was Shin Megami Tensei!YHWH with a different name. Formortiiis was literally a demon, and Loptyr was a God of Evil. Meanwhile, did Eliwood, Erika, or Ike ever do anything morally dubious? The shades of grey have only ever come from either secondary villains (e.g. Shiharam or Mustafa) or the very rare playable character who's amoral (e.g. Soren or Henry). Warriors isn't really worse than the rest of the series in that regard.

Jan 22nd 2018 at 9:48:00 AM •••

You have many points, but in more than a few games, for each Black and White conflict, there is at least one Grey and Gray one. Nergal may have been (present-wise) not very morally complex, but Zephiel was. While Ashnard and Lekain were straight up evil villains and Ashera was basically YHWH, Sephiran and Zelgius were much more complex Anti-Villains. Formortiis was a demon, but Lyon was just trying to do the right thing and suffered for it. Loptyr was a God of Evil, but Arvis was just one of his many victims. And then there's Echoes, whose main conflict was very gray while the Black and White was left to the minor villains like Desaix. In fact, the heroes of Echoes actually had a few shades of grey themselves : Alm was a bit of a Politically Incorrect Hero while Celica was acting out of actually selfish desires not to see Alm go to war. Warriors, on the other hand, didn't even give it's villains any backstory and comes off as even Blacker and Whiter than Hyrule Warriors, which is based on the generally Black and White Zelda series. So yes, Warriors really is worse than the rest of the series in that regard because it has no Gray and Grey.

Jan 22nd 2018 at 7:50:41 PM •••

You're restating what I said about the moral ambiguity coming from secondary villains in a way that shows you didn't understand what I was saying.

You're confusing heroes being imperfect with being morally ambiguous.

And please, Lunatic, stop putting your gripes about the game on the YMMV page. Just use the review page.

Jan 10th 2018 at 3:17:59 PM •••

I want to get a second opinion on it, but I vote we cut this part:

  • The villains in general. We never learn exactly why Gristone turned evil in the first place beyond the fact that Oskar wants the power of of the Chaos Dragon. We never learn how Gharnef, Validar and Iago got here and they just teleport away when they're defeated and we never know where they went. And Velezark's past is never explained beyond he just appeared out of nowhere and attacked and he never utters a single word, so we don't even know his exact personality (unless we count Darios, but at the time he was pretending to be him).
    • Gharnef, Validar and Iago also have the problem of being non-playable villains. Meaning that they can't have supports , so nothing that would develop them, something that they all sorely lacked in their own games which gave Validar and Iago the status of Scrappies in their original games.

Especially since the part with Velezark basically says, "He didn't say anything if you disregard the things he said."

Edited by MisterTambourineMan Hide/Show Replies
Jan 10th 2018 at 3:54:46 PM •••

I think the part about Oskar is legit since he's in like one scene.

The rest can be axed for complaining and the inclusion of Natter.

Jan 11th 2018 at 5:22:39 PM •••

Discussed section cut. I would've replaced it with a section on Oskar, but there was already a section for him under T Wa PGC.

Jan 4th 2018 at 6:04:25 AM •••

If anyone feels awesomia's They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character entry that I removed (see the edit reason as to why) should be restored in any way, please bring it up in here first.

Dec 30th 2017 at 8:46:31 AM •••

Uh, what the hell is this with Iago being a Scrappy in this game?

Especially because he supposedly "stole" Garon's spot and said one of Narcian's line? There is no credible proof of what that person wrote. Hell, I saw people liking him more here than back in Fates.

Seems petty as fuck.

Edited by Asue Hide/Show Replies
Dec 30th 2017 at 11:19:58 AM •••

Agreed. He even gets some funny scenes, like threatening to kill Elise over insulting his hair.

Edited by Karxrida
Dec 30th 2017 at 7:02:55 PM •••

Sound like another old fan looking for reasons to complain. I say cut it.

Dec 11th 2017 at 7:47:00 AM •••

Wait, who the Hell added that part in the Base-Breaking Character section about Rowan being called the worst Lord in the franchise?

Also, his sister ain't a BBC?

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Dec 12th 2017 at 2:27:31 PM •••

I don't think the game's been out long enough for anyone to be a Base-Breaking Character. Like Broken Base, a Base-Breaking Character needs to be someone who's incredibly divisive for a long time (at least 3 months is the standard we're using at this moment, I think).

Anything shorter is just kneejerk reactions, and given this fandom, I'm not even sure any of the two sibling lords are actually Base-Breaking in any sense. Do we have any idea what the majority of the Japanese fandom thinks of those characters?

Edited by dragonfire5000
Dec 12th 2017 at 9:23:04 PM •••

Should I delete the section, then?

Dec 15th 2017 at 12:31:12 AM •••

I say delete it. The game's not out long enough to have a Base-Breaking Character as of this writing, and I have my doubts that Rowan is a base-breaking anything.

Dec 17th 2017 at 9:26:25 PM •••

Apparently, the site is refusing my deletion.

Dec 18th 2017 at 12:18:46 PM •••

No the issue was Lunatic0verlord added it back. However, you did not leave an edit reason. Please make sure you do that Asue, thats how Edit Wars start.

Dec 18th 2017 at 12:59:29 PM •••

You gave a reason here, but nothing was left in the edit reasons on the main YMMV page. When you removed BBC on the 15th, there was no reason listed directing people to the discussion tab. When you removed it a second time, there was also no edit reason.

Dec 19th 2017 at 8:28:34 AM •••

I agree with keyblade333 here, you really should've added a reason on the main YMMV page. I was sure I was dealing with either a salty Rowan fanboy or a Troll because of the lack of reasoning. It's just now I realize what's going on. See where lack of communication leads to?

Dec 21st 2017 at 3:01:33 PM •••

Rowan is definitely polarizing; I'd say it's safe to add back in a few weeks or so. Saying people call him "the worst Lord in the series" is definitely pushing it though and most of the Lianna hate seems to be knee-jerk.

Dec 11th 2017 at 3:58:31 AM •••

  • Squick: Iago's kidnapping of Corrin. It's disturbing enough that a grown man would specifically target a young woman and take her hostage, mainly for the possible connotations, but it's made even worse when he later turns her into his puppet, one with absolutely no control over her own actions at that.

I don't think the OP intended it, but this entry is dripping with a really misogynistic and gross idea: that every single male villain who antagonizes a woman is a horny asshole who WILL rape her. Iago is creepy enough already without adding these needless, tacked-in "implications" of him being a rapist, which come solely from one of his three victims being a woman. It's quite sexist to Corrin too, since it implies that a woman isn't truly abused and threatened by a man unless she's sexually harassed by him.

Plus, Ryoma and Xander were mind-controlled by Iago too. It's best not to ignore that little detail just for the sake of artificially victimizing Corrin further than she is in that specific situation.

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Dec 11th 2017 at 7:47:47 AM •••

Yeah, Ryoma and Xander were in the same state as her, yet she's special?

Dec 26th 2017 at 6:03:30 AM •••

Yeah, it was purely because Corrin is a girl and somehow that makes her more of a victim. OP wouldn't have said anything if Male!Corrin was the one brainwashed, because we all know that men are never liable to be sexually abused and that female hostages are automatic rape magnets [sarcasm]

Nov 24th 2017 at 5:40:48 PM •••

The That One Level entry is getting quite massive. Should we move it to its own page, given the possibility that more entries might be added for DLC missions?

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Nov 24th 2017 at 5:50:34 PM •••

Several entries are not valid due to being purposefully hard postgame content (which I've been meaning to delete), while a couple others are just really bloated and could do with condensing. There's no need for a page at this point.

Edited by Karxrida
Nov 23rd 2017 at 6:37:06 AM •••

Shouldn't Lianna be on the Base-Breaking Character section as well? I mean, more and more people are split about her.

On one hand, she's more mature than her twin brother, knows when to be serious, and is more reactive to what's going on unlike Rowan who takes all of this in strides, On the other hand, she's decried as being bland or having no personality of her own (while Rowan, despite his status, has an ACTUAL one), having no moveset of her own, always complaining how she isn't fit for the throne when the question is asked (despite filling the quotas to be, at worst, a decent queen) and is only saved from being majorly hated because of her lady parts/Double Standard.

Edited by Asue
Nov 9th 2017 at 10:12:09 AM •••

I'd like to write something about the exploit where resetting the game right after appraising a locked weapon attribute will allow you to keep the 50,000 gold normally spent. Would that fall under Game-Breaker, Good Bad Bug, or another trope entirely?

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Nov 9th 2017 at 10:23:54 AM •••

Probably Good Bad Bug. Money is pretty easily obtained, so it's not a Game-Breaker.

Nov 7th 2017 at 7:25:00 PM •••

So I'm gonna propose the elephant in the room that I've noticed around the internet have been contesting

  • The Scrappy: While the Original Generation as a whole is found to be fairly lukewarm, Rowan has been found to be grating on many players, whether it comes to his uncharismatic voice acting, his one-note boneheaded personality, and his seeming lack of significant Character Development.
I'm willing to also suggest Base-Breaking Character in case there is enough argument against, but I do think this needs to be addressed.

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Nov 8th 2017 at 8:03:49 AM •••

Is there any proof that he's a character where there's very little or no middle ground among the fanbase? And a few citations from the Internet is not good enough; the fanbase consists of over a million people, so you're going to need very solid proof that he's a very divisive character.

Nov 8th 2017 at 8:45:11 AM •••

I saw people liking Rowan, especially after his support with Xander. Also, by that note, Lianna is only liked for her lady parts, as unlike her twin brother, her personality is not as noticeable and blander. See what I did there?

Nov 9th 2017 at 4:41:31 PM •••

I've seen hate, not for his character, but for existing and not being either a returning character, or for just existing. I don't think that qualifies him as a scrappy in any way, I would suggest mentioning it on the Scrappy clean up page.

Nov 5th 2017 at 4:41:08 PM •••

I know this discussion board is currently focusing on controlling over the top negativity right now, but I think some of the positive posts up right now aren't really valid either. Here are some things that I think might be cutworthy.

  • Author's Saving Throw
    • The focus on specific games to 'avoid having only sword fighters', the reveal for Lissa, Frederick, Robin, and Lucina as playable characters showed off the use of two axe wielders (Lissa and Frederick) and a tome wielder (Robin). Even more so when Cordelia (lance) was revealed. The addition of Fates' royal siblings has also added Leo (tome), Takumi (the first archer in the roster), Camilla (axe) and Hinoka (lance).

To me, this sounds like it contradicts the roster complaints. Not to mention "having characters with multiple playstyles" seems like something so basic that it isn't worth celebrating. Furthermore, there are complaints about how a lot of the weapon types are clones (like the peguses knights)

  • For those who didn't like a 30 FPS game running on the system selling itself on 60 FPS games, there's an option to lower the image quality so the game will run at 60.

This one just doesn't sound like enough to celebrate over.

  • Visual Effects Of Awesome: The game looks gorgeous with special mention going to the effects for the Musou-equivalent Warrior Special attacks.

I know this is YMMV and all that, but I don't think I've seen anyone say that this game looks "gorgeous." Just pretty good and "does what it's supposed to."

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Nov 5th 2017 at 5:07:52 PM •••

I agree the AST stuff can go.

Not sure about the VEoA example, since we need to take the Switch's capabilities (compared to other systems) into account when talking about graphics.

Edited by Karxrida
Nov 5th 2017 at 5:12:33 PM •••

Don't forget the New 3DS version.

Nov 9th 2017 at 10:18:22 AM •••

Should we add an entry under AST regarding the game's dual audio option? I recall more than a few posts on reddit talking about how happy they were to learn of that, especially regarding some of the more notorious voices in the English dub.

Nov 5th 2017 at 9:32:59 AM •••

Someone went ahead and unlocked the page. To prevent possible issues of bad Broken Base entries, here is my proposed entry (Do not add this just yet). I personally think it could be improved on, but it is a start:

  • Broken Base: The game's decision for the roster to focus primarily on Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Fire Emblem Fates has divided the fanbase. With Warriors being a spin-off of a 27-year old franchise, would the game ultimately be better off as a worthy spin-off had it pulled characters from older games? Or does the fact that Awakening and Fates being the best-selling Fire Emblem titles and their characters being more recognizable justify focusing on three games? Not helping this is that a fair number of characters are base-breaking among parts of the fanbase, as well as a poor excuse from the developers to justify focusing on three games (more information is listed under Tainted by the Preview). All in all, the roster is heavily contested and debated by the fanbase and should be treated with utmost caution.

Given that the roster is contested, I want to make sure an entry on the roster is added to minimize edits that complain about the roster.

Edit: Resolved.

Edited by BZL8 Hide/Show Replies
Nov 5th 2017 at 10:06:15 AM •••

I don't think this is a broken base because nobody "likes" not having a diverse roster. Broken base needs a love it and hate it side. At best people just "don't mind" it because they like Awakening/Fates, but even then they would have preferred having more.

Edited by mrbits
Nov 5th 2017 at 11:02:26 AM •••

Concurring with mrbits. It seems like an excuse to bring up the roster complaints.

Edited by Karxrida
Nov 5th 2017 at 11:06:14 AM •••

Having thought of it, I think that the Tainted by the Preview entry already nails the roster issue pretty well.

Edited by BZL8
Nov 6th 2017 at 2:38:50 PM •••

Broken Base also needs to be a sustained conflict. The main trope page says: "...a truly broken base is characterized by a sustained and exceptionally vicious conflict between two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions with little or no middle ground to be found between them."

Something to keep in mind before trying to add a Broken Base example.

EDIT: Looking at the edit history, looks like it didn't take long for someone to add a bad Broken Base example that doesn't show a sustained conflict with little or no middle ground. It got taken off, but still...*sigh*

Edited by dragonfire5000
Oct 3rd 2017 at 10:02:44 AM •••

I would personally feel that this page should be left locked until a few weeks after the English release, maybe early-mid November at best. Given the issues various parts of the fanbase has with this game, it would probably be best to let some things cool down to reduce the potential amount of bad edits.

Edited by BZL8 Hide/Show Replies
Oct 23rd 2017 at 8:21:52 AM •••

Nah, I think the fanbase has calmed down a little since its release in both Japan and NA.

Oct 24th 2017 at 11:14:26 AM •••

We've recently had someone using WMG to complain, so I don't think the page should be unlocked just yet.

Oct 25th 2017 at 9:15:22 AM •••

As dragonfire5000 stated, someone used the WMG to write an entry that was deemed as a stealth Take That! to complain. It has since been taken care of. See here for more information.

I still stand on keeping this page locked for now to reduce potential bad edits.

Edited by BZL8
Oct 26th 2017 at 11:33:29 AM •••

After reading that link, I now totally understand.

  • sigh* That fanbase can be quite immature, sometimes.

Oct 27th 2017 at 10:01:09 AM •••

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in the fanbase. I was hoping that it'd be fine, but it seems I was wrong. Guess I should've seen this behaviour coming, though. The FE fanbase has been the worst Nintendo one I've seen ever since Awakening, for a number of reasons.

I, too, stand on keeping it locked for now. Sadly.

Oct 27th 2017 at 1:13:01 PM •••

As part of the fanbase, I personally find we have a huge "knee-jerk" problem. Especially on certain forums and sites, many of us tend to jump to conclusions on a game's quality and features a lot. Don't get me started on the fandom's reaction when Warriors would only focus on three games.

There is no doubt that many of us in the fanbase are passionate about our favorite Fire Emblem games. I could go on and on about my favorite entry, Path of Radiance. But I feel that we have a huge problem of letting our passion get the best of us when it comes to discussing the games.

The Broken Base within the FE fanbase reminds me of a similar break within the Shin Megami Tensei: Persona fanbase, especially when it came to the first two games and the newer games in the franchise and how big Atlus was in focusing on the newer games than the older games.

I believe the Fire Emblem fanbase is arguably one of, if not, the most passionate Nintendo fanbase. But I also think we are the worst, along with the Smash Bros community in keeping our passions in check.

Oct 27th 2017 at 4:33:02 PM •••

Part of what frustrates me about all of this is the Fire Emblem Warriors did exactly what Hyrule Warriors did: draw on three of the most popular games in the series. People complained some, but there wasn't this contingent of people who said the game was ruined for that alone.

What happened the the Fire Emblem fanbase? Why are there so many people who seem to insist that Awakening and Fates have neither merit nor popularity?

Oct 27th 2017 at 7:53:54 PM •••

The Legend of Zelda games aren't really known for their beloved casts, especially not in comparison to Fire Emblem. As a Wind Waker fan, I was disappointed that there was no vanilla Wind Waker representation, but I had no idea who they could fit in- except maybe Tetra.

The problem with the casts Fire Emblem chose is that the Modern titles draw a lot of ire for paying for their popularity with a vastly different tone that makes older fans somewhat uneasy, as well as the loss of some of the charming gameplay they had come to love. By choosing Awakening, Fates and paying lip service to Shadow Dragon, the devs of this game communicated that they no longer cared about those fans- and you don't say you're kicking loyal fans out of enjoying their favourite franchise without backlash.

Heck, compare the reactions of people's favourites from classics and moderns- "I like Florina because she turned out to be an amazing unit on my first run." versus "I like Sumia, she was the first girl I married." I don't get how people say there's no shift to object to.

And, of course, said cast choice meant they missed Ike and Roy. That's like making a Mario Warriors without Wario or Yoshi. Akaneia/Elibe/Ylisse would've been so much smarter, and it would've let you use all four of Ike, Lyn, Roy, and Lucina while still packing Marth and Robin.

Oct 27th 2017 at 8:04:23 PM •••

My guess on why people have issue with them is the same reason I do: those two entries are oversaturated. There's a massive amount of emphasis on Awakening/Fates, which can even be seen in the mobile game, Heroes. Awakening and Fates have probably the most characters - even more than the Shadow Dragon/Mystery combo - than any other entry and with even numerous entries combined (lol Thracia and its 2 characters). Nearly every costume event has only Awakening/Fates, barring Bridal Caeda, Bridal Lyn, and the Brave Four (who were based off a popularity contest and not chosen by the designers, and only one of which is from those two entries).

There's also the matter of game quality. I feel Awakening deserves the hype it gets, but there's no denying that it's easier than most entries and has map design almost as flat and boring as Gaiden. Lunatic exists, but the jump between Hard and Lunatic is just absurd. I stomped Hard and had some difficulty with Lunatic my first time through. Lunatic+ is a great idea (a streamer I watch does runs of it weekly without exiting/reentering maps to reset skills), but it doesn't appeal to 99% of people. The writing is also very...meh. It didn't utilize its potential as much as it could've. But at least it's better than...

Fates. The writing was hyped up and turned out to be particularly mediocre, both in the handling of Valla and Corn's characterization in Conq. Rev has severe balancing issues, to the point where Fuga's Wild Ride is nearly impossible on Lunatic (Corn and someone with a backpack Rinkah are the only ones able to deal damage without grinding, and Gunter dies stupidly easily) and you encounter numerous issues otherwise. I could honestly go on for a while about Fates' flaws, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Shadow Dragon is generally disliked outside of Japan, so it would be like if Hyrule Warriors added a bunch of Four Swords (the D Si game, not the GC game) characters because Japan really, really loved Four Swords over the other entries. Not the best example, but it's the best I could think of.

I hope this is coherent enough to make sense. I have issues getting the point across when I make longer posts. >.>

Oct 28th 2017 at 12:15:14 PM •••

At the end of the day you guys gotta remember that Koei Tech and IS want to get as many people to buy the game, and Japan has a wider love for Musou games. Naturally they will go with the games/characters more popular in Japan first. From a business standpoint, Awakening and Fates are popular worldwide so it made sense. I wish they had Ike, Black Knight, Innens, etc but we got what we got.

This page doesn't need to always stay locked, but there needs to be a trust for that.

Oct 28th 2017 at 5:29:58 PM •••

We just had to do even more cleanup on the Tokyo Mirage Sessions WMG, because more than a year after the game's english release there are still people mad about it. This fandom holds grudges for a very long time. I vote we keep the page locked. Maybe indefinitely.

Oct 28th 2017 at 8:31:42 PM •••

Why WMG, though? That's what confuses me. Why not just add snarky lines to examples that aren't flawed (like how Superman: At Earth's End's entire damn page was before someone cleaned it up) or, better yet, go to Gamefaqs and complain with everyone else and save the people who clean up the mess the trouble?

That said, keeping it locked indefinitely is a bad idea as well. Unless someone is willing to put in approved edits to make sure they aren't just aimless complaining, like I see was done with Astra (not Astral, as is posted) in Game Breaker. Gotta love being stuck in zugzwang, eh?

Oct 29th 2017 at 11:44:10 AM •••

If I had to hazard a guess (and this is a very cynical guess, mind you), I'd assume some people don't think WMG is viewed as much as YMMV so complaining would be easier to sneak by.

I honestly don't see any value lost in keeping the page indefinitely locked, if only because the vocal part of the Fire Emblem fanbase has proven again and again that they cannot be trusted not to whine and wonk.

Oct 29th 2017 at 8:09:57 PM •••

I suppose that makes sense. I never look at WMG, at least.

It's just that keeping it locked feels like a waste. Completely agree on the fanbase not being trustworthy, though. Especially after the giant mess that is Halloween Nowi from Heroes. People attacking her artist on Twitter and, in one case, stealing someone's edited version of her in her costume and telling the artist "this is better."

Oct 30th 2017 at 1:20:13 PM •••

Broken Base entries can be added, just be sure its a good entry rather then a bad entry.

Good Entry

  • The roster choices such as lack of iconic classes and usable lance users have drawn criticism such as gameXplain and this review on gamefaqs.
  • The game having six less movesets then Hyrule Warriors is another point of contention. One half thinks this is quality over quantity, the other thinks that its a step down from Hyrule Warriors.

Bad Entry

  • The idiotic roster is hated by the fandom, Koei left out the most iconic classes and only had one pathetic lance moveset.
  • The game having six whole less movesets from Hyrule Warriors has rightfully caused ire against Koei for lying about more movesets.

Just in case, we should avoid Complaining about Complaining and Complaining about People Not Liking the Show as well.

Edited by Monsund
Oct 30th 2017 at 1:25:57 PM •••

The first is not a good BB entry at all. It's supposed to have 2 sides.

Edited by Karxrida
Oct 30th 2017 at 1:34:03 PM •••

The first entry does have legitimate basis for being an argument, but I don't know how to spin a good side to it. Like it sucks there's no useable ground lance wielders, dagger units, flying sword units, etc. The closest I can think of is that thats Fake Difficulty but thats not YMMV.

Oct 30th 2017 at 1:38:40 PM •••

RE: Karxrida

It literally mentions two sources showing it has drawn some criticism.

If you have an addition you want, do tell?

I guess it could be, "others think the Pegasus Knight is fun enough to fill the void" or something similar?

Edited by Monsund
Oct 30th 2017 at 5:36:56 PM •••

Those examples aren't good, because Broken Base needs to be a sustained and particularly vicious conflict. To quote the page:

A broken base is a civil war among fans of a particular franchise. Almost every franchise has at least some internal conflict among its fanbase, but a truly broken base is characterized by a sustained and exceptionally vicious conflict between two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions with little or no middle ground to be found between them.

The entry does not demonstrate the "sustained and exceptionally vicious conflict between two or more large, vocal, and entrenched factions with little or no middle ground to be found between them" part. Broken Base =/= something that has drawn criticism.

Nov 1st 2017 at 9:51:49 AM •••

I've noticed that a lot of BB entries have been removed. Guess it makes sense, considering how most of the posts have been long forgotten even months after their addition. It's also nice that it specifies no middle ground, since, at the least, I'm really tired of seeing "and then there's a third group that doesn't care" in at least one part of it on most pages that have such entries.

Nov 1st 2017 at 8:07:52 PM •••

I am looking at requesting an unlock sometime later this week or next week. However, should something rise up beforehand, I will happily let the page be locked for a bit more time.

Nov 2nd 2017 at 4:37:15 AM •••

Honestly, I'm not so sure the fan base is ready for unlocking this page. I know for a fact that some fans are waiting for the lock to be lifted to start flooding the page with BB entries. So at least a few of them are bound to be down-straight complains thinly disguised.

Honestly, I don't know when it would be a good moment. The "Fire Emblem" fan base has become probably the most toxic one out of a Nintendo franchise. The in-fights between pre- and post- "Awakening" fans are among the most unpleasantly taste-shame driven ones I've ever seen. And that doesn't look like it's going to get better anytime soon.

Nov 2nd 2017 at 1:43:38 PM •••

Seconded on the lack of trust with fans to made good entries and the fanbase toxicity. I try to stay away from that stuff, but good god. Even normal-sounding conversations find some way to be awful. The Gamefaqs board for Conquest was just painful for me to look at during the few times I stopped by. The only fanbase I've seen that's worse than this is the Outlast estrogen party that paints a murdering rapist as a sympathetic lover to the MC.

Nov 2nd 2017 at 9:16:12 PM •••

Have to agree. To say the least, Fire Emblem, alongside Smash Bros, unfortunately takes the award of the most toxic Nintendo fanbase out there. I blame passion and a lack of maturity for fueling the flames. I am in no rush to request an unlock, and if what Xander VJ said was true, I am more than happy to have the page locked for a greater period of time.

Should someone decide to unlock the page, I would strongly implore that a mod leave a message in the page source regarding such toxicity, warning against adding complaints, thinly disguised or not, and reminding fans about the definitions of appropriate tropes.

I would also suggest to have all potential Broken Base (and/or Internet Backdraft, etc.) entries reviewed via this discussion page before being added, if we can. We had a similar issue with YMMV.FireEmblemHeroes where people were adding complaints and/or misusing the tropes. I have a personal feeling that some fans are not fully aware of the definition of some tropes and what constitutes such an entry. I also believe that some do not know that they should not be using the wiki as a place to complain.

If we want to keep the page locked indefinitely, the moderators should decide.

Edited by BZL8
Nov 4th 2017 at 8:35:11 AM •••

It's kinda sad, as there are legit exemples we could add there, like some That One Level that are quite tough to beat.

Nov 4th 2017 at 4:24:40 PM •••

The issue is tricky, because... well, it's TRUE that there is a Broken Base surrounding this game and there is a legitimate Internet Backdraft surrounding the choices for the roster. So they MUST be acknowledged for the sake of authenticity.

But I agree that it also MUST be heavily regulated.

As for the reasons why the FE became so toxic... I think it would need a full-blown sociological study. But it's far from the first time that something similar happens. Old fans of cult series that later on have an explosion in popularity always tend to feel entitled, and feel threatened by newer fans, since they truly change the social structure of the fanbase, potentially diminishing their relevance. And since newer fans tend to not be as knowledgeable, at least at first, in these discussions they feel patronized and condescended, and they often react badly in return.

Now, I know this is not a 100% perfect parallel, but something very similar happened among Nintendo fans in general during the Wii era.

What disturbs me about the case of FE in particular, again, is the ridiculous taste-shaming involved. I'm a bit concerned, since taste-shaming culture is what have turned the English anime community into a frigging wasteland IMO, specially on You Tube (I suspect that there is some overlap between the two, but that's just speculation).

Nov 4th 2017 at 4:33:56 PM •••

Oh wow this convo is long.

^^ You can request edits in the Locked Pages thread in the FAQ section of the forums.

Nov 4th 2017 at 6:00:09 PM •••

Another issue I see with the fanbase conflict is that they're expecting the difficulty of the games to drop and a shift on the focus because of the huge amount of newcomers. The second part (yes, I'm doing this first) is that Awakening and 2/3 of Fates was easier than the previous entries (Sacred Stones aside) and had a lot of flat maps where there wasn't much terrain to strategize around. There's unit placement and AI manipulation for strategy, but it's more or less smashing things into each other. Midori's recruitment map in Fates comes to mind, due to it appearing as if it's giving you different ways to do things, but it's linear unless you use a flier. Contrast with Conquest, which has much better map design.

Second would be quality, or the lack thereof. Let's look at Conquest first. The maps are fine, although there are a few stumbles (Endless Staircase), so nothing there. But as for the writing? Well, you've all likely heard all the complaints I'd list. What stands out most to me after all that would be the characters. Corn is utterly spineless and openly regrets siding with their family, the cast is a lot darker and morally ambiguous, having characters like Beruka, Niles, Peri (who is just Reina but younger and unable to cope with life, but still), and the localized Effie. Hardly your normal recruits for a typical FE game, and more like bosses you'd have to fight. Contrast with the more moral (but by no means squeaky clean) Hoshidans, localized Ryoma being more of an exception due to his questionable behaviours like defaulting to torturing a Nohrian for info in chapter 22 after they just arrived in Nohr's capital.

There's also the issue of focus on waifus and supports. They've been present for a long time, but they aren't the massive focus they are now. Not wasting a paragraph on something everyone knows.

Lastly, the difficulty. Yes, Conquest exists. Most choose to ignore the difficulty and map design over the writing, from what I've seen. But Awakening, Lunatic Birthright, and Rev are easier than previous entries. I'm mixed about Echoes, since it could be the fact that I haven't played old entries recently that has me say it's easier than pre-Awakening ones. Yes, I said Lunatic Birthright is easy. Later chapters in particular just end up being a meat grinder that forces you to smash your strongest units against the enemy forces until they die. Awakening Lunatic (and L+) are difficult if you highman, but the best strat is ChRobin and picking up Morgan along the way because of both Chrom's and Robin's genes. But all in all? Easier on the first two difficulties, harder than most on the harder two. As for Rev...it's schizophrenic and impossible to get a proper hold on, but I'd still rank it easier. Echoes has Mila's Turnwheel, which is enough to apparently justify difficulty complaints.

That said, how it got to the point where people slut shame Camilla cosplays, insult artists from the games (well, more so than you'd expect), and attract the awful people that populate the Gamefaqs boards is beyond me. I'd imagine it's much deeper than what I've been saying, but I don't care enough to find out why it's like what it is. Even typing this gave me a headache, so my apologies if it's incoherent at parts.

Nov 5th 2017 at 2:47:07 PM •••

This is getting really ridiculous.

Nov 6th 2017 at 8:36:58 AM •••

I think you are completely missing the point, Heartlesswithaheart.

It's not about listing what flaws the games have or don't have.

It's about how the fanbase has devolved into practically tribal groups that are unwilling to accept the opinion and taste of others (many may say they do accept it, but their attitude says otherwise), and go out of their way to shame them because of it.

But I think we're going off track. Maybe we should talk about which to add to the YMMV page in a regulated form.

Nov 8th 2017 at 12:37:28 PM •••

RE: Dragonfire 5000

  • The roster choices such as lack of iconic classes and usable lance users have drawn criticism such as gameXplain and this review on gamefaqs. Yet other reviewers like Ign and eurogamer think its a roster that represents the series great.
  • The lack of Armored Knights for the first time in the series has split the fandom into two camps. One believes that this absence is very unfortunate for the game's roster and the class is iconic. The next side thinks that the class isn't needed and a Mighty Glacier wouldn't fit the gameplay.

Sep 8th 2017 at 3:37:54 PM •••

It seems that this page was locked. I think the edits got out of hand... Only time will tell if it will be unlocked once the game comes out.

Hide/Show Replies
Sep 11th 2017 at 11:40:49 AM •••

The page got locked because people were using it to complain about the game before it was even released and it was attracting bad edits (such as misusing The Scrappy and Broken Base).

Sep 30th 2017 at 9:45:27 PM •••

Has anyone took a pic or memorized the exact quotes? I don't remember that.

Oct 1st 2017 at 1:06:16 AM •••

No pic or quotes. The decisions to lock and unlock pages go down in this forum, so the request is all there is to it.

Edited by KiwiMaxim
Oct 1st 2017 at 11:24:10 PM •••

If it ever unlocks. I suggest that the first thing that will be said in Broken Base is that this page was locked. Here's an example of how it could go:

Broken Base: Oh boy! The Base was so Broken that this page had to be locked for quite a while. That's saying something considering that not even Fates had this treatment.

Btw, has Fates' YMMV page ever been locked before the release of the game?

Oct 2nd 2017 at 8:48:38 AM •••

Not going to lie, that's a horribly written example that's wholly devoid of context. BB also doesn't allow pre-release examples.

I don't know if the Fates page was ever locked.

Oct 2nd 2017 at 10:30:58 AM •••

I don't think the Fates page was ever locked, though I get the feeling it probably should've at some point.

Though if Broken Base continues to get misused, I can see future Fire Emblem pages having their YMMV pages locked before the game release as a precaution.

Oct 21st 2017 at 11:25:02 AM •••

Huh? But I do remember that some works had pre-release examples... Or was it all in the Tainted by the Preview trope. I don't remember.

Okay, that example was bad... But the fact that the page had to be locked at some point is worth mentioning.

Btw, now that the game is out in this country, how long do you think that this page will remain locked?

Edited by Lunatic0verlord
Oct 22nd 2017 at 1:49:49 PM •••

It was Tainted by the Preview and because they kept revealing royals for the cast, to the point where there were only three non-royals revealed alongside...probably fifteen royals. Four and sixteen if you count the opposite gender Robin/Corrin. It wasn't even an edit war, really. It was posted, someone deleted it, and then it was locked without anyone putting it back in. No "% %your complaints about the roster are not valid" was ever put at the top of the page when you tried to edit it, either.

If there was an edit war, then it would've made sense. But there kinda...wasn't anything resembling one.

Edited by Heartlesswithaheart
Oct 22nd 2017 at 2:02:19 PM •••

I see. So it just kind of went out of control like that, huh?

Oct 22nd 2017 at 5:58:04 PM •••

It didn't really get anywhere to begin with. Not before it was locked, at least. The mod responsible for locking it was probably expecting it to end up like the Awakening/Fates YMMV pages, which I'll admit is a(n unfortunately plausible) possibility, but I feel it was an overreaction.

Oct 23rd 2017 at 8:39:48 AM •••

People were taking things a bit too far though. We had people labeling the oc main characters as scrappies with no discussion or justification other then; "I don't like these two", to people saying "the lack of x character made many unhappy" and not detailing it further. It was locked for good reason, and until it is opened it'll stay this way.

Oct 23rd 2017 at 8:47:46 AM •••

I seriously don't trust the fanbase to play nice anymore because of what I've seen on this page during the prerelease period. The moment we game a name for the Switch game I'm requesting a lock for that YMMV page too.

Oct 24th 2017 at 10:10:15 AM •••

You might as well just forbid the creation of a YMMV page for it until the game's release because, from what you're telling me, you want to lock the YMMV page while it's still empty, which would be one of the most pointless pages on This Very Wiki. An empty locked page, just think of how pointless that would be.

Oct 24th 2017 at 10:26:48 AM •••

It's not exactly unreasonable though. For example just by looking at your edits you've shown a clear issue people have now with the Fire Emblem fandom on this website; jumping the gun with complaints. On this YMMV and the WMG page for this game you've used them to complain about things you dislike when stuff wasn't out yet. We can't outright stop pages from being made but we can take care of the aftermath and clean it up/delete/improve it, and for this it had to be locked until such a time where we can reasonably add opinions onto it.

Oct 24th 2017 at 10:55:42 AM •••

I will admit that I may have been jumping the gun a bit with Iage being The Scrappy again (but I'm pretty sure that the only way he could be Rescued from the Scrappy Heap would by giving him a more fleshed out personality and by making him less of a Generic Doomsday Villain in general), but with all the Moveset Clones this game has, I wouldn't be surprised if more of them pop out. But with those two facts out (but one of them deleted), I've ran out of negative WM Gs to post for now. I was considering posting one a bit more hopeful about a possible sequel (I heard that Word of God has outright said that Ike left out of this game because the plan was for him to be in the sequel, correct me if I'm wrong).

Oct 24th 2017 at 11:16:41 AM •••

You shouldn't be posting negative WMGs at all. WMG is not a place to vent or complain. The entries should be written in a neutral manner, and any complaints about games should be relegated to one's own private blogs. The wiki isn't for complaining about things you don't like.

Oct 24th 2017 at 1:25:03 PM •••

Sigh. Fine. I hope my third one was acceptable, at least.

May 30th 2017 at 7:17:13 PM •••

You know..... This Fire Emblem Warriors is kinda "Ironic Echo" about characters in Super Smash Bros.

We always complait SSB have "too many swords fighters", and now this game about all characters with "swords"/axe/lance/magic/dagger/magic... now they tell us there are too many characters with swords.... IRONIC!!!

In fact this game forgot the super popular others character of other series and other lords used different weapon (Hecto with Axe, Ephraim with Lance, Celica with Magic, ect.)... this ruined this game for this stupid problem.

Hide/Show Replies
Jul 14th 2017 at 8:42:04 PM •••

Dude, you posted that when they'd barely revealed any of the characters. Why would you assume that every character uses a sword, just because the first few characters they revealed did? Moreover, how can you claim a game is ruined when it's months from release, and we barely have any information about it?

Oct 21st 2017 at 11:37:14 AM •••

Well. Let's count : Without the DLC, there are three tome users (two of them being clones), three axe users (who at least all have their own style), three lance users (all three Pegasus Knights and all three being clones), three archers (all three clones), only one stone user and TEN sword users (with the OG Siblings being clone of each other and with Celica being the Marth Clone (ironically since that means Lucina is not a Marth Clone this time)).

With the DLC, there are now two new lance users (who, while not Pegasus Knights, are probably clones of each other), one new axe user (who might end up be a Camilla Clone), one new archer (likely to be a clone of all the other archers), two new tome users (who might end up be Robin Clones, just like the villains), no new stone users and THREE sword users (two of which will most likely be clones of each other with the third one being an uncertain case).

That's a lot of swords. And clones.

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