Pokémon anime

While XY had it's lavish points, I think cop outs were it's recurring problem, especially since it tried to be more of an actionized epic than previous series. Not only could it not resist succumbing to old habits such as Ash's Plot Armor, Deus ex Machina outcomes and formulaic plot lines, but it tried to convey a higher level of development and tensity, which obviously, they couldn't really add up to because ultimately things have to end the same way as any other region. It pretty much sounds like this series will end on a remake of the DP finale, just with even less concluded.

• People are sour the Amourshipping went nowhere.
• People are sour Ash didn't win the league.
• People are sour Clemont and Bonnie barely did anything up until the Flare arc.
• People are sour Serena remained incompetent with an ill developed goal.
• People are sour Team Rocket went back to losing easily every episode.
• People are sour Ash didn't make any references to his old Pokemon or battles.
• People are sour Iris and Cilan made no reappearance.

At the end of the day some it is down to the Unpleasable Fanbase, but I do think ultimately, just trying for an actual different story direction rather than trying to overplay the normal formula like it will go anywhere this time may be a more gratifying method. Potentially anyway. There's still plenty room to screw it up.

edited 2nd Oct '16 8:10:37 AM by Psi001

What you guys are talking about essentially boils down to people liking different things. XY wasn't perfect, there were a number of things DP did better, but its still has so many highs to make it one of the best arcs of the anime.

Overall though its basically nitpicking. You can go back and trash any saga of the anime if you signal out all the bad points of each, but its not worth it. The entire show is flawed for the same reasons as always.

I doubt that because, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Ever since BW, the writers have been basically being as gimmicky as possible with the series. Contrary to popular belief, there was some hype to BW before it came out; it was the first time Ash had a female travel companion who wasn't the female protagonist since Misty, it was the first time Brock wasn't going to be apart of the main cast, and people were legit hyped about Team Rocket actually being played seriously, and Ash was rotating his Pokemon.

Then low and behold, those same things ended up being things people dismissed about the series at the end, on top of its usual shortcomings. Iris is generally considered to be one the least remarkable heroines (how many Dragon types did she actually catch...), Cilan is seen as overbearing to some people, Team Rocket ended up being "boring" and barely made any appearances, and Ash rotating his Pokemon was useless since he never dropped the Unova starters or Scraggy after it hatched, which led to a severe lack of screentime for Boldore, Unfezant and Palpitoad.

Same thing with XY and SM; things that look potentially interesting end up not being as interesting in the end. The Anime is basically starting to fall apart at the seams, its like they want to tell a different story but still use same tropes they've been using for over a decade now; I don't see SM being any different, so don't be surprised if anything that might be potentially interesting ends up being poorly executed by the end.

That's only because the anime is so old now, they have to do something new every saga.

Its in the same fashion DP was a more refined version of AG. They did something new those sagas to distinguish them from the OS, but they were also fairly familiar.

The XY anime really wasn't much more than the writers combining parts of AG and DP together into the same series. Serena's entire story and parts of her personality feel like a combination of May and Dawn's characters and story beats.

Yeah, to be honest I find it more compelling when we have a "gym leader in training" protagonist, as long as she's not as bad as Iris was at first.

Problem is the writers really have nowhere to take characters like that. Its fine for the male companions like Brock, Cilan and Clemont....but the female lead actually has to do something.

May successfully replaced Misty over 14 years ago for that reason, the Contests were the most popular addition to the show during Hoenn. Its also what led to Misty's early permanent departure from the series, and why they decided not to bring her back as AG progressed.

Personally, I think that they couldn't deliver the goods not because they "have to end the same way", but because they are still holding on to the "Children's Series" mindset (the ultimate "same reason"). I mean, "having to end things the same way" does mean that:

• Ash loses the League,
• Serena's Romance Arc goes nowhere,
• and Team Rocket gets beaten by Ash overall...

... but what does "ending things the same way" have to do with the muted characterization/effectiveness of the Sidekicks? Heck, in the above list, I said that Ash would have to beat Team Rocket overall; an overall standpoint of Status Quo Is God would not preclude minor or "Stage One" victories by Team Rocket. And, in fact, the lack of an appearance by Iris violated the previous formula.^note Though, granted, that was for the purpose of the upcoming tone-severance...

This, plus the point I made in my prior post about the Education Aesop having to endure into future series in order to be effective, (otherwise the Aesop will just Break when Ash's character snaps back), is why I think that "trying for an actual different story direction" won't work; that is, it won't work if their goal is to write a better story. If their goal is just to get more kids to watch, then their choice of story is good short-term, but then they could have that screwed up by the Executives requiring that they adhere to the games' Villain plot.

More to Precita's point: What would a "Gym-Leader-in-Training"'s Training involve that wouldn't just duplicate Ash's Badge Quest but on a mono-type run? This is ultimately why Misty didn't work and why Iris needed to be part of the mini-Tourneys, effectively setting herself as a minor Rival to Ash.

And I just had a thought: What if, on the 13th, Braixen actually KOs Pikachu? Braixen would have done by itself what it took Alain 2 Pseudos and his Starter^note albeit not in the latter's Super Mode to do! It would also give Serena a 2-0 record! (appropriate music)

I mean, the whole battle could be caused by Ash observing that Serena comes up with great ideas while battling.

At that point there would be two schools of thought:^note Technically, there'd be a third wherein Ash Ketchum's sense of fair play is, once again, his own worst enemy.

• They're getting the whole Depower bit out of the way prior to the next start, i.e. Ash really is starting from Zero, as opposed to being set to zero by a Legendary...
• The whole Performance Arc sidetracked what would otherwise have been a perfectly serviceable Rival to Ash!

While I believe that the former would prevail in the fandom, I have to wonder if having Serena in the departure episode means the latter EDIT: is what the writers intended? Heck, if they have an Episode in Pallet Town on November 3rd, that Serena's Meanwhile Scene would be her entering the Santalune Gym challenging Viola, with the episode ending (after the "A New Beginning" line) on the first toss?

Personally, I think that the plot that Serena should have had was her experiencing all sorts of aspects of the Pokemon world that didn't involve battling. Serena's Gift would have been (and arguably could still be) her ability to determine what a particular Pokemon would be best at.^note Note that this would not be the same as Bonnie's Gift of being able to befriend any Pokemon. For both of her captures, she saw how great they were at performing; what's not to say that, if she focused on another task, that she wouldn't capture Pokemon excelling at those respective tasks?

What that would've done is set her as being a better representative of being a Pokemon Master than the Battle-focused Ash! Effectively, when Ash would have his Heroic BSoD, it shouldn't have been envy of Sawyer that would've triggered it. It would also have inspired Ash to go Back to School at the end of this series. And it may still do so: Ash will probably find that he's taken this Battling thing as far as he can (at least for now) and needs to recenter on the other aspects of Pokemon Mastery that he's neglected before he can take the next step as a battler.

edited 2nd Oct '16 9:50:19 AM by DonaldthePotholer

Even if Serena did beat Ash, people would consider it an Ass Pull since she has spent the whole series as a mediocre battler at best (she's useless even against Team Rocket the instant they become Not So Harmless and can land hits) and perhaps even at a stretch consider her a Creator's Pet for never losing a single battle even against a pro.

Despite having plenty of time to do so, they almost went out of the way to ensure Serena never really progressed as a battler (or at the very least did so very superficially, eg. dumbing down TR or having her win through dumb luck).

That was a problem in many regards, lack of development and build up. Remember when people were wondering when the hell Team Flare were actually going to do anything? Or if the league was actually going to occur? Sure they did eventually stick it in within a decent timeframe, but they sure did waste time which could have been used building it up or adding a little more development to the arcs. They never did explain how TR planned that wetlands drainage so far away from the twerps either, or how the showcase opponents got all their Princess Keys. And it's not like there weren't plenty of superfluous episodes to do so.

edited 2nd Oct '16 10:09:21 AM by Psi001

Well in final review of the XY cast:

1. Serena. She had a very slow start, but she did develop nicely once she "broke out of her shell" and stopped just being a love interest for Ash. The tripokalon's were rushed and not as good as they could have been, but I just see that as Japan's love of idols and waifu's so it didn't correlate well with western audiences. She didn't get as much focus or development as May or Dawn, but I'd place her somewhere between them and Misty and Iris. Her actual personality was pleasant and enjoyable, if a little dull at times because she had a less dynamic personality than all the other girls. She was easily the shyest and most quiet girl on the main cast.

2. Bonnie. Easily my favorite of the cast. Her personality is better than some of the main females, and she was just highly enjoyable as a character. Her expressions were hilarious.

3. Clemont. Enjoyed him as well as a male companion, its nice to have someone Ash's age be his bro. I liked that he looked up to Ash to gain more confidence. His brother moments with Bonnie were also well done. His Gym battle with Ash was great. There were lots of eps in XY where he kinda got shoved into the background, but the same happened to Brock all the time so I can't complain.

It's still a little early for final results; Clemont's last Focus Episode is this Thursday and Serena's is the one after that.

EDIT: Regarding Serena being "quiet and shy", though... her interactions with Grace contradict that. And note how she's not shy towards her potential captures; in fact, she had to coax Eevee out of its shyness. And she certainly wasn't "quiet and shy" about defending Ash when he was sick, attacking Ash when he turned on her during his Heroic BSoD, or speeding off to Lysandre Labs to rescue Chespie, though another Trope may have been in play in the second case.

That "quiet and shy" bit might be entirely an artifact of her crush on Ash. It would've been interesting to see her in a mini-series where she's not traveling with Ash at all. Then again, I could say the same about several of Ash's former companions.

Not to mention the Rogue Malamar^note unless they were mentioned by Xerosic in the Flare Climax... or will be mentioned in the Greninja-focus episode the week following Serena's... And I still believe that Florges' plot was its own separate affair that Team Rocket Piggybacked onto.

edited 2nd Oct '16 11:53:26 AM by DonaldthePotholer

The reason a lot see Serena as quiet and shy is because she is the most soft spoken and "lady like" of the female companions. We never really see Serena flare up in anger like the other girls, she usually just makes frowny faces when she gets mad or crosses her arm. And also in most episodes that don't really focus on her, she kinda hangs to the background and rarely leaps into action.

Its noticeable compared to May and Dawn. May exploded in anger if things didn't go her way and acted as "Misty-lite" at times. In fact the May/Drew and May/Max and May/Ash bickering was often linked back to Ash/Misty's. Dawn was also an "action heroine" who didn't hesitate to leap in action and was often very vain especially in early DP.

Back in the day people always used to say how May and Dawn were, "so girly compared to Misty," but honestly looking back those people were full of crap. Despite Dawn's love of fashion she had a lot of self confidence and arrogance, and May was basically a mix of Ash and Misty in terms of stubborness.

Serena is only really submissive when it comes to Ash for obvious reasons, she's pretty snappy with other characters when they're getting on her nerves or she's exasperated. Most of her snark comes from dealing with Clemont's inventions.

While I agree that those who see Misty as "less girly than May and Dawn" are as blind as a Zubat, it's more because Misty was rather girly herself than any Action traits of her successors; indeed, much of her "Tomboyish" reputation seems to be based on 3 factors:

• Her rivalry with her more-girly sisters
• Her Tsunderishness towards Ash (possibly an extension of her rivalry)
• The fact that she was traveling, period. Or at least, traveling while having a goal that was not "Acceptable"
• EDIT: Okay, there was a fourth: Her game moniker was "The Tomboyish Mermaid", but that turned out to be an Informed Attribute in the games anyway.

The first two was just a phase of hers based from the Rivalry and the last was an artifact of the prior millennium. I mean, suggest that a girl cannot adventure in this day and age. Indeed, one of the key criticisms of the Performance arc was that it was Girl-only; Tierno could've been a formidable foe for the Performances. EDIT: In fact, for the idea I had prior about Serena doing Contests during her Curtain Call, I'd want that contest to be won by Tierno now; he'd only be a Dark Horse for those who forgot about guys like Drew, Harley, and Nando.

And, Precita, I would still like you to separate the times when Serena was forced to take the lead, for one reason or another, from the times when she didn't have to take lead, as did. I think you'll find two different characters.

And I just remembered, Serena countermanded Ash during his injury in the Summer Camp instructing the siblings to get help over Ash's protests. If she was so "quiet and shy", then how could she have the courage to countermand her crush/commander?

So it would be instructive to separate "crushed" Serena from "forward" Serena in any analysis.

edited 2nd Oct '16 12:46:50 PM by DonaldthePotholer

I see Serena as demure, just more realistically and subtly so than usual cartoon "constantly blushing and afraid to speak up" examples, in that she's very soft spoken and often a tad insecure and Moe-ish (see how she sometimes clenches Ash's ribbon), but can get riled up or snap back when pushed into it. Her brashness with her mother can be justified by this since she's spent ages pushed into a hobby she hates and is likely just containing more and more frustration about it from not speaking about it. She did seem a bit more of a snarky Genki Girl in some of the early episodes however, so maybe Characterisation Marches On also plays into it (she isn't as dismissive of Clemont in later episodes for example).

I think what XY lacked was many episodes a character in the main group caused the dilemma of a story, there were rarely arguments or Idiot Ball moments outside for moving the plot forward, and they were rarely a point of contention with the others. The other regions at least had a palpable few 'actions have consequences' stories where the characters act up and are made to regret it. This sometimes made the XY group feel static, or even worse, enabled (eg. Bonnie sometimes got off scot free with being a brat).

In terms of their goal, I think the main problem was that sometimes the characters felt too safeguarded to look like they were progressing. Serena got this worst. She could only ever lose the showcases through her own error, making her seem to invincible against her rivals. Her only battle displays for the most part were Team Rocket battles, which were rarely an accomplishment in her case (Serena only ever could get in cheap shots during the Curbstomp Battle face-offs, otherwise someone else usually had to protect her, in one episode she couldn't even handle Meowth unless he stood perfectly still). As shown in the Flare arc, her skills are still pretty ineffective, making her feel like she has barely progressed at all. Even if this last battle steps up, it would feel rushed in after so long of her barely showing any skill.

edited 2nd Oct '16 2:16:34 PM by Psi001

A few weeks back, The Mattress posted the surmised outlines for BW as it as supposed to be, BW as it became, and XY. Interesting points, especially in this mortem period:

• XYZ was effectively what the 3rd year of "Best Wishes" was going to be
• There was little focus given to Parts 2-4 of XY (another blogger posits that this was due to the burn from the Sequel games... and when no games materialized, the writers had to resolve the story wholecloth, thus the Refit)
• The general outline is set for 3 years with the arcs set in roughly half-year (2-cour) sets and that they're storyboarded roughly 15-18 months out.

The above, combined with the fact that the writers are going a school route as opposed to what's been revealed in the games thus far, leads me to double-down on my "1-year-school-arc" theory:

• They would've had to have written the first year with no indications on how the XYZ epic would've been received, and each subsequent year would have the same 1-year blackout.
• Plus, TPC has been quite uneven with their releases as of late; a mainline that went against all prior formulas meant that all bets were off.
• Also, a game pair that is so diametrically opposed, much like Pokémon Black and White was, is not likely to receive a single Third Version. In fact, were it not for the Refitting of Zygarde into Sun & Moon, I could've seen the "Third Version" being for Kalos instead of Alola.

Thus, it's better if the writers wrote in 1-year full-arcs from this point forward, even if those "full arcs" added up to only a third of a game, in order to more easily adapt to whatever TPC sends their way:

• Year 1: School - Introducing the Recurring characters plus the Melemele trials
• Year 2: Quest - Traveling to the other 3 Islands (likely with Lillie and no Captains) to undertake the other trials and battle the Kahunas
• Year 3: Conflict - Whatever plot happens in the later games of the Gen.

Going back to the "mortem", I'm wondering if Serena's Performance Quest wasn't mandated by TPC for the ORAS remakes; then again, I'm wondering if Serena wasn't mandated period; Bonnie and Clemont could've held the floor with Ash by themselves. I believe that I actually wondered the latter in the beginning of "X & Y"... but the addition of a 4th character, while allowing for better dynamics with the natural pairs, diluted the focus overall; not that the writers were willing to give so much to begin with seeing as how they were burned in the prior generation...

On a side note, XYZ Roles in the Team Plasma Climax:

• As stated by The Mattress:
  • Alain = N
  • Mairin = Anthea & Concordia
  • Lysandre = Ghetsis
  • Xerosic = Colress (Personally, I'd say he's more like Zinzolin; after all, Colress wasn't a character in the First Set...)
• My Additions
  • Bonnie = Iris
  • Clemont = Cilan, with the twist that Cilan and his brothers were the Shadow Triad but (at least Cilan) defected...
  • Serena = Bianca, even though Team Rocket were the ones who were able to Bring News Back in XYZ...
  • Backup Trio (Tierno, Trevor, Shauna) + Sawyer = ...Rival Trio (Trip, Georgia, Burgundy) + Stephan, but what role would they have had?

edited 2nd Oct '16 7:46:27 PM by DonaldthePotholer

Screw revisionist history and hype backlash, I throughly enjoyed my time with XY, it was a much needed change of pace after the dumpster fire that was Best Wishes (specifically season 2)

...is it sad that I just realized that Best Wishes has the same initials as Black & White?

Wow plz, its been six years.

I didn't get it until I'd stopped watching Best Wishes.

If it makes you feel better, it took me a shamefully long time as well.

Wow, next thing you know people will act like they're surprised AG stood for "Advanced Generation" because Gen III was on the Gameboy Advance.

jokes on you I watched all of it, it's the completionist in me

edited 3rd Oct '16 11:24:03 AM by Soniman032

Soniman are you Noodlerama from tumblr? Who are you talking to?

I know his true identity

A lot of people here are also people from tumblr or users from bulbagarden/serebii over the years, including myself. I've been in the online fandom since 2002 back when AG was first starting, used to spend all my early days in the fandom debating with bitter Misty fans who couldn't get over her leaving in the early 2000's.