Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

No. Fails the baseline.

Honestly, even with that, killing two Riders in a painful way don't seems too much to me.

I'm guessing this is the best place to ask unless there's someplace else I'm unaware of so sorry in advance.

I request for some I guess minor edits to be done to the Complete Monster page for One Piece if it's not too much to ask.

The edits I'm requesting are to remove the arc names at the start of each entry as well as changing anything else related to them such as "The titular" part before Captain Kuro in the first entry.

My reasoning is that while the format may apply to most of the characters listed, it doesn't necessarily correctly apply to Akainu.

Akainu's very first act of being a complete monster was first shown during Robin's flashback in the Enies Lobby arc which happened much earlier than the Marineford arc. Him causing Aokiji to leave after he gained Sengoku's position, a sign that he's that bad, also happened after the Marineford arc

As the page is, it suggests that everything that makes Akainu a complete monster was done by him during the Marineford arc which is factually incorrect. Considering he's a major character in the series, it's also likely he'll do something else in a future arc that warrants mention on the page.

There's also the possibility that there could be another complete monster in the future whose heinous actions span multiple arcs. Writing down their actions as if they were all done in one arc would be factually wrong.

Since the page at its core lists down characters rather than arcs, it's kinda simpler to just remove the arc identifier at the start of each entry than rearrange the whole page in a way so info would be factually correct.

Anyway, that's my request. Thank you in advance.

Edit: Nevermind. Noticed the line on top

edited 12th May '18 11:29:43 PM by Elfkaiser

God bless you guys then, i was actually sad for a second that i just had gave Decade the honor of having a complete monster . Until Kamen Rider Build ends, i now have zero KR baddie proposals. Anyway, here's my writeup for John and Shibaura (place the latter between Asakura and Sudo):

Rocktobber Blood: John Harper is Billy's homicidal twin brother and a Serial Killer responsible for murdering 25 people prior to Billy's execution after being mistaken for his brother. Returning two years later, John begins stalking Billy's girlfriend, Lynn, pretending to be Billy's ghost in an attempt to make her life a living hell. He also kills people close to her and hides the bodies, these murders include: drowning a girl in a hot tub and ironing a woman's neck until she dies. Disposing of the tour's lead singer and assuming his position, John eviscerates women on-stage; beheading one and throwing her dismembered head to the audience, viewing this as the "ultimate show".

Kamen Rider Ryuki: Jun Shibaura/Kamen Rider Gai is a rich, machiavellian college student and a Psychopathic Manchild who sees people's lives as tools to satisfy him. Recreating the Rider War in the form of a computer game that would subliminal messages to players, Shibaura convinced his own colleagues to participate, always recording the loser getting brutally killed in the process. Putting himself in the position of ORE Journal chief editor, Shibaura planned on spreading city-wide violence by sending his program to their subscribers, and threatened to burn Shinji's Dragreder card if he tried to stop him, which would result in him being devoured by his Contract Monster. When Ren is unable to decide if he should kill him or not, Shibaura takes the opportunity to attack him, mocking Ren for not having the courage to kill him, stating that if a person is a Rider, then killing is a must. Meeting with Asakura, Shibaura gives him Zolda's true identity, despite the fact that he was the one who released him from jail, and gleefully watches Asakura holding a group of people hostage. In his last act of malice, Shibaura kidnapped Yui to reunite the Riders in order to make a "Rider Party" where he could see them fighting each other in his own definition of the ultimate game.

edited 12th May '18 11:47:08 PM by TheMadCr0w

No to Kamata, yes the heinous standard is different per series but despite that he still doesn't actually DO much other than kill two people, yeah it is cruel how he does it but that is still just two people.

Has there ever been a case where a CM is also a Fallen Hero?

quite a few.

Yes, numerous cases.

Abyss

Shibaura

Abyss. Thats way lower than everyone else on the page has done for me to vote him up.

Kimura for having a loved one and keep sabretooth.

edited 13th May '18 1:19:58 AM by miraculous

Hey it's me. Got this guy.

What is the work? Maple Story is an MMORPG focusing on varying perspectives in the form of multiple classes. One sect of these classes, focuses on the Resistance, and their struggle against the Black Wings, a group looking to resurrect the Big Bad.

Who is he? The head scientist of the Black Wings, Gelimer.

What did he do? Gelimer's Establishing Character Moment in just about every story he stars in involves the fact that he willfully and gleefully experiments on humans, up to and including kidnapping children to perform Unwilling Roboticization and turning at least one character into a Manchurian Agent.

Timeline-wise, Gelimer was a genius even from an early age, but ditched his original profession to join the Black Wings, under the condition that he could build a gigantic airship. He would begin to experiment on people kidnapped from the nearby occupied city, turning them into cyborgs and erasing all emotion, disposing of ones that did. In this time, Gelimer would create a gas capable of killing people instantly and began mass producing it, as well as blowing up a young girl named Vita whom he sent to spy on the Resistance.

Gelimer was eventually tasked with resurrecting the leader's brother, Lotus; he did so, but turned him into a killing machine that would eventually attack her and leave her for dead. Gelimer uses Lotus as a living battery for his airship, the Black Heaven, loaded with bombs full of the gas to be dropped across every continent. Before The Hero can stop him, he kills his old friend Martini and erases Lotus from existence after sending him into a berserk state and getting him to nearly kill the player. He infects the player with the gas, destroys the antidote, and taunts them, leaving them for dead before meeting his end at the hands of dozens of cyborgs that he created.

Migating Factors Nope.

Heinousness? Gelimer is never shown to have a single redeeming quality, every act of "goodness" that he's done being shown to, in the long run, be for his own benefit. His ideology is of believing emotions and free will make humanity weak, and attempts genocide in order to turn the population of the world into mindless slaves or kill them instantly to create his version of a "perfect world". Would Hurt a Child, Lack of Empathy, and a mad scientist in one.

Conclusion? Somewhat generic, but he seemed like an obvious choice.

edited 13th May '18 2:28:27 AM by fixc

Gelimer

Maplestory. What an awesome name for a Video Game. Gelimer.

Crow: Griffith from Berserk comes to mind immediately, among several others,

Scraggle: I submitted Neil (I just Wiki Word-ed Serial Killer).

Unsure on Kumozuro.

Shibaura.

Gelimer. Seems like a different type of CM from the already-approved Magnus. And, if this is accurate, seems to be a case of Jumping Off the Slippery Slope:

• Well-Intentioned Extremist: His notes seem to suggest his original goal was to accelerate the evolution of humans; however, the same notes also show a gradual descent into madness where he likely forgot any good intentions.

The comic de-potholing and reformat is done. I'll submit these Wednesday or so:

• A to H
• I to Z

Excuse me, could I please get the template for an effort post? Want to make a write up for a character.

Something like this.

Gelimer. Abyss.

Cheers:

Okay, here's my writeup for Princess Simula. The Big Bad of "Welcome to the Show"

What Is the Work? "Welcome to the Show", is the campaign played in the you tube series Brony D&D. The plot focus's on a group of seven misfits who all find themselves imprisoned in a gladiator arena to fight for the amusement of the sadistic Queen of Directian. Upon their escape, they team up with the REAL Queen of Directian to help her take back her throne from her twin sister Simula.

Who Is she?

Princess Simula Malum is second in line for the throne of Directian, and The Sociopath. A teifling like her sister, she states that she feels nothing for other people. That she barely feels any emotion at all. The only real pleasure she gets out of life is to harm others like a child playing with ants

What has she done? Desperate for something to entertain her increasingly unstable boredom, Simula made it her goal to open a rift into the demonic abyss and engineer a brutal war between Alatastica and the abyssal hordes so she can enjoy the carnage.

To that end, she usurps the throne from her twin sister Jeminya, and locks her up in the arena with seven other individuals who each have ties to the various nations across the land. Setting herself and the military might of Directian (The strongest nation in Alatastica) up as the enemy to motivate all the other nations to unite against her. Following the party in secret, and manipulating events to ensure that the nations will listen to the words of their "saviours"

However, the one nation that she has no access to is the Dragon Lands. The location hidden in an enchanted book that can only be read by the kindhearted.

To get around this, she hatches a plan with The Warden of Directian arena. Conceiving a child with him, she has her own memories of the incident erased before the Warden casts her out, brutally assaulting her and leaving her for the heroes to find. Now helpless, pregant, and believing that she has been betrayed by her own servant, she convinces the heroes to let her join forces with them. Inserting herself into the party, and allowing the Warden to follow the party even into the Dragon Lands by scrying the mind of Simula's unborn child.

When even the dragons are convinced to join the war, The Warden "kidnaps" S Imula again, as per their plan. Restoring her memories once again. With her memories restored and the other nations lining up to fight Directian, she [[You Have Outlived Your Usefulness betrays The Warden, [[And I Must Scream mutating him into a quivering pile of flesh, murdering her own child now that The Warden no longer needs to scry it's mind, and murders the citizens of Directian with a single spell. Using their deaths as a sacrifice to open the abyssal portal and begin the war she'd always wanted. Sadistic, callous and willing to sacrifice anyone and anything, Simula plunges the world into chaos, causing countless deaths simply for her own entertainment.

Redeeming Qualities?

A few are hinted at in the series, but they are ultimately subverted.Originally, it's hinted by Jeminya that Simula may have been nicer as a child. But the audience eventually learns that Simula was always The Sociopath, and her boredom simply had not yet festered to the point where she could no longer pretend to care about other people. Jeminya's memories a case of Unreliable Narrator tinted by Rose-coloured glasses.

A second possible redeeming quality is her statement while travelling with the party that she wishes she COULD feel remorse. She's so desperate to feel any kind of emotion or sensation that she'd even take guilt.

The catch however, is... she DOESN'T feel remorse. Even after the party accepts her into the group as one of their own, even AFTER they go out of their way to rescue her, to extend the hand of friendship and redemption and give her the chance to be a better person, she willingly chooses to throw that all in their face. Commiting her most heinous crimes of all as she murders her loyal warden, her own child, and hundred of innocent civilians all to make HERSELF feel better.

Heinousness? In a series that is a Morality Kitchen Sink, Simula is EASILY the worst of all. Even compared to her closest competitors in this area, she stands head and shoulders above them in sheer bodycount alone.

Aymer is an arrogant and cruel Mad Scientist who abused his own daughter and was fully on board with her plan to open the portal to the Abyssal plane For Science!, but most of his crimes are off-screen and even then they don't come close to what Simula did.

The Warden of Directian was a sadist and a control freak who while pretending to be the new Big Bad, cruelly fused two young dragons together into a gruesome chimaera, motivating the other dragons to join the war against Directian. However, he wasn't always like this. He was once a loyal and honourable soldier who willingly served the royal family. He fell in love with Simula, and it was she who corrupted him. Manipulating him into becoming the sadistic bully the heroes know him as. In the end though, despite his loyalty to her and his love for her, she discarded him like everyone else.

Abstaining on Simula. Whether or not she actually does feel it, the line of her wishing she could feel remorse or guilt makes me wary about moral agency.

Edit: Actually, if she willingly throws away the oppertunity of redemption afterwards, to Simula

to Abyss. And MadCr0w, no offense, but I've been getting the vibe that you believe having no redeeming qualities is the only qualifer to be a CM. No effort posts of yours from what I saw have a section talking about how heinous the candidate is, which is problematic since a character standing out in heinousness given their resources is an absolute requirement for a character to be a CM. It would be best if later effort posts have a section talking about the how heinous the candidate is in comparison to other villains because simply having no redeeming qualities in comparison to villains who do doesn't inherently equate to their actions being worse.

edited 13th May '18 7:07:54 AM by Awesomekid42

Not sure on Simula... the fact we've got both a potential backstory and interest in feeling guilt both being hand waived is a little sketch to me.

No to Abyss, Crow, please review baseline heinousness and be sure your candidates are doing enough to stand out, even in a standalone work.

Oh, yea to the MapleStory villain.

Before I forget, Mir asked me to trim Subvisser 51's entry on Animorphs, so here that:

• Animorphs: In a series full of shades of grey and with a theme of War Is Hell, a select few stand out as truly monstrous and evil individuals:
  • Subvisser Fifty-one—also known by her host's name, "Taylor"—is a cruel Yeerk. Infesting in the mentally ill girl, Taylor becomes an angry monster who serves as Visser Three's Torture Technician. Using a device that tampers with the pain and pleasure centres of the brain, Taylor captures Tobias and makes him relive the worst moments of his life and inserts agony to the recollections of his best memories. Returning months later after Tobias is rescued, Taylor reveals she severed her mental link with her host, regaining her sanity but not an ounce of morality. Taylor manipulates the Animorphs into helping her kill Visser Three, taunting Tobias about the suffering she put him through, hoping to provoking him into attacking her so she has an excuse to hurt him more. Revealing her actual plan is to kill thousands of her fellow Yeerks, Taylor intends to pin the blame of her attack on the Yeerk Peace Faction.

edited 13th May '18 7:13:08 AM by 43110

We shouldn't be using Griffith as a example of a Fallen Hero CM. He was always a Manipulative Bastard that wanted rise to the top for the sake of his own ego.

If you want a CM Fallen Hero, look at Darth Krayt who used to be a.genuinely loyal Jedi Knight in the Prequel Era but who become a Knight Templar Evil Overlord of a New Sith Order in the Legacy era

Gelimer

edited 13th May '18 7:34:21 AM by KazuyaProta

Most accurete Fallen Hero CM examples who come in my mind are Lotso and Koba

edited 13th May '18 7:35:44 AM by MovieFan2000

@Awesome Kid 42 I actually explore the baddie's heinousness, i just don't use the exact term "heinous", like you saw with Kamata's case, where i used the word "villainous", or in Shibaura's case, where i admitted that Asakura overshadowed the guy in brutality. But yeah, it's an incovenicence. My real enemy is the base-line, i always tend to forget how important it is. But thanks for your support anyway.

edited 13th May '18 7:45:28 AM by TheMadCr0w

Yeah most so called Fallen Hero CM's like rassilion and griffith were already jerks when they were heroes, maybe they weren't monsters than but they didn't have far to fall.

Another good example of an actual good hero who became a cm would be Kaiser ephes from Super Robot Wars Alpha who genuinely was once a good person but became a CM by letting his ambitions get the better of him.

edited 13th May '18 7:46:18 AM by miraculous

There's also Brenneka.